Maker Pro
Maker Pro

15 vs 20 amp circuits

M

mdb

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about the
romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall jacks.
I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced with a
new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that work for
me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2 romex). Is
there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits I'll be creating
for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex? Or is there a
fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage circuit breakers on
those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do I
need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when the
outside drains are blocked.
 
T

Toller

Jan 1, 1970
0
mdb said:
I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about
the romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall
jacks. I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced
with a new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that
work for me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2
romex). Is there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits
I'll be creating for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex?
Or is there a fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage
circuit breakers on those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do
I need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when
the outside drains are blocked.
Wire costs a bit more, and its a bit harder to work with, but there is no
downside other than that. I haven't used #14 in years. It has the added
benefit of reducing voltage drop a little.

Properly installed, GFCIs protect the entire circuit.
 
Z

zxcvbob

Jan 1, 1970
0
mdb said:
I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about the
romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall jacks.
I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced with a
new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that work for
me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2 romex). Is
there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits I'll be creating
for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex? Or is there a
fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage circuit breakers on
those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do I
need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when the
outside drains are blocked.


I use 15A for lighting circuits, and the occasional dedicated circuit
where 15 is enough -- the wire is much easier to work with. I use 20A
for all branch circuits.

One GFCI can protect the whole circuit, or part of the circuit, or just
itself. Depends how and where you wire it.

Bob
 
T

Tony Hwang

Jan 1, 1970
0
mdb said:
I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about the
romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall jacks.
I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced with a
new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that work for
me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2 romex). Is
there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits I'll be creating
for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex? Or is there a
fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage circuit breakers on
those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do I
need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when the
outside drains are blocked.
Hi,
If you need for 20 Amp circuits for higher demand devices or whatever.
There is nothng wrong overdoing anything but economics. Copper price is
very high lately. Anything load on GFI breaker or outlet is all protected.
 
V

Vaughn Simon

Jan 1, 1970
0
mdb said:
Have hired an electrician to do that work for me. But I wondered why I'd bother
with 15 amp circuits (14-2 romex). Is there a reason not to simply make all
three of the circuits I'll be creating for the new basement 20 amp circuits,
using 12-2 romex?

No extra hazard. Your electrician will prefer to work with #14 because it
is easier (and therefore quicker) to deal with. Particularly if you might be
running power tools, heaters or AC on those outlets, insist on #12.
Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located

Yes.


Vaughn
 
D

Daniel Who Wants to Know

Jan 1, 1970
0
mdb said:
I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about
the romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall
jacks. I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced
with a new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that
work for me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2
romex). Is there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits
I'll be creating for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex?
Or is there a fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage
circuit breakers on those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do
I need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when
the outside drains are blocked.

I agree with all the posts so far regarding this and here are my own reasons
for using all 20A stuff: Less wiring voltage drop (already mentioned) and
receptacles are usually built better and have thicker copper in them so they
hold a plug tighter. Other than that I personally don't find #12 that much
harder to work with but then again I have run 4/0 aluminum wire for a main
service entrance before.

The only rule I am aware of is that a single outlet 20amp circuit must have
a 20 amp receptacle (multiple 15 amp receptacles are OK on a 20 amp circuit)
but since I use 20 amp receptacles anyway for the better plug retention this
is a moot point.
 
D

DanG

Jan 1, 1970
0
Just about all the electricians I know and work with use the hole
in the side of stripper that is made for making the loop that fits
on the terminal screw. Insert tip of stripped copper - fold it
over the side of the cutter - install on screw. The tips of the
strippers can be used to close the loop tight.
<http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/...=showGreenleeProductTemplate&upc_number=31889>



--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)
[email protected]
 
M

Mike Payne

Jan 1, 1970
0
I guess it's my job to disagree with most of the other posters. 15A
circuits let you work with 14 gauge wire. It is orders of magnitude easier
to wire outlets and lights with 14 rather than 12. I use 12 only for
workshops and kitchens where they might actually be needed. Most radios,
TV's , and computers use less power today than even a decade ago. When was
the last time you tripped a 15 A circuit breaker by overloading it?

mike
 
I guess it's my job to disagree with most of the other posters. 15A
circuits let you work with 14 gauge wire. It is orders of magnitude easier
to wire outlets and lights with 14 rather than 12. I use 12 only for
workshops and kitchens where they might actually be needed.

That makes 2 of us. A friend tried to talk me into using #12 for
everything (as he'd done at his own place). When I told him that the
bulk of the long runs were one light per circuit, and that nearly all
of them would be 12W CFs, he started the "what about the next guy"
angle. Sheesh! If there's a next guy, and if he wants to use 150W
bulbs, and if he thinks that'll stress the #14, then too bad. :)

Wayne
 
L

Liam Greenwood

Jan 1, 1970
0
Second this, *do not* use the "push wire" type connections, they are the
ones with the little release slots next to the holes. Do not however
confuse "push wire" with "back wire" as they are not the same thing.
With the better spec grade devices you will find many offer the "back
wire" option which is a screw clamp type connection that works well and

OK, now I am confused. I recently did a basement (15 amp for the
lighting circuits, and 20 amp for the power outlets). I fought for
a while with the receptacles that need the 'hook' on the end of the
wire to go around the screw. With the 12 gauge wire I was spending
an inordinate amount of time swearing at the wire not doing as needed.
So I instead used the wee hole on the back of the receptacle - I stripped
the end of the wire, pushed it in the hole and then screwed it down
with a screw from the side. Is that what you are calling the "back
wire"?

Cheers, Liam
 
J

John McGaw

Jan 1, 1970
0
mdb said:
I'm renovating my basement and have a pretty fundamental question about the
romex cable I'll be running throughout the space for lights and wall jacks.
I'm having my old Federal Pacific breaker panel (150 amps) replaced with a
new Cutler Hammer 200 amp box. Have hired an electrician to do that work for
me. But I wondered why I'd bother with 15 amp circuits (14-2 romex). Is
there a reason not to simply make all three of the circuits I'll be creating
for the new basement 20 amp circuits, using 12-2 romex? Or is there a
fire/shock hazard caused by using the higher amperage circuit breakers on
those standard circuits.

Also, does on GFI protect the entire circuit on which it is located or do I
need to install more? My basement, like so many, sometimes gets wet when the
outside drains are blocked.

As others have said, there is no real reason to opt for 15A over 20A
other than a minor saving in wire cost and the difficulty of working
with the heavier wire. But since you are having an electrician do the
job it doesn't seem as though either one of those will matter at all to
you. But I can vouch for the difficulty factor if you are doing the work
yourself.

I recently added circuits and changed existing ones while doing a
basement remodel and 12-2 wire is incredibly stiffer than 14-2 and
pulling it through tight spaces above an existing finished ceiling
really slowed me down. Even worse was pulling three 10-3 from the box at
one side of the house to my workshop near the other end. That stuff felt
like steel bar after a few hours of wrestling with it and if I hadn't
been building a convenient soffit to cover ductwork for a goodly part of
the run I might still be slaving away at it.

Oh, and if you do go with the 20A circuits, make sure that the
electrician doesn't cut corners by using lesser-rated receptacles and GFCIs.
 
B

Bill

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you are a home builder and are building 50 homes, then you want to cut
costs as much as possible to maximize profit. So 15 amp outlets where not
required and as few as possible is the rule.

However if you are that same home builder building your own home, then 20
amp outlets everywhere and plenty of them (no 15 amp outlets)...


"mdb" wrote in message
 
B

Beachcomber

Jan 1, 1970
0
I agree it is not a serious concern but it is the one argument I have
heard about using 20a circuits for general lighting circuits.

The key concern is overloads. Both 15 and 20 amp breakers will trip
on direct shorts (if they are working properly).

There is a tradeoff.

20A circuits have a convenience factor with the ability to delivery a
considerable greater amount of power to a given situation. A typical
example today would be a home office with multiple monitors, printers,
computers and accessories in addition to whatever other routine loads
(vacuum cleaners, electric heaters, etc.) are placed on the circuit.

That extra 5A capability might just be the difference between adaquate
wiring or a long-term headache of a constantly tripping circuit
breaker.

On the other hand, the subloads on a 20A circuit might (possible) pose
a safety issue. The 18 gauge lamp cord example has already been
mentioned.

The danger being that if the 18 g. wire is overloaded just enough for
the 18 g. wire to melt, but not enough to trip a 20A breaker. (In
such a case, a 15A circuit breaker might be more likely to trip than a
20A breaker, but not necessarily). This is the reason that most
power strips contain their own internal circuit breakers.

15A circuits were standardized during a time when there where few
constant electrical loads and the loads were generally light. (a few
lamps, a fan, etc.).

These days, many people have home entertainment systems, hefty audio
amplifiers, air conditioners, computers, big-screen plasma tv's,
monitors, laser printers, and a whole lot of loads that could not be
imagined 60, 70 or 80 years ago.

In my opinion, this makes the argument favor the 20A circuits over 15A
circuits, just for the added capacity and convenience.

Beachcomber
 
C

clare at snyder.on.ca

Jan 1, 1970
0
The key concern is overloads. Both 15 and 20 amp breakers will trip
on direct shorts (if they are working properly).

There is a tradeoff.

20A circuits have a convenience factor with the ability to delivery a
considerable greater amount of power to a given situation. A typical
example today would be a home office with multiple monitors, printers,
computers and accessories in addition to whatever other routine loads
(vacuum cleaners, electric heaters, etc.) are placed on the circuit.

The CORRECT solution to this situation is a split 15 amp circuit.
15 amps to the top outlet, 15 to the bottom. Done by using 14/3 cable
and double breakers. The legal way is a "tied breaker" which means if
you blow one, it trips the other as well. This is to prevent half of
the box being live.
Untied breakers are often used for this reason.
 
D

Doug Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
Doing that will also put the two outlets on opposite poles / phases,
giving 240V between the upper and lower hot connections.
So?

I'm not sure
how that works with the ratings of the break off tabs on a duplex
receptacle. At any rate a hinky solution at best.

You're not sure how it works, but you're sure it's a "hinky solution." :)

Actually, it's a perfectly fine solution.
The truly correct solution is to just install more circuits in locations
that need them. Basically instead of the all too common situation of
every receptacle in a room being on a single 15A or 20A they should be
individual circuits or at least two circuits alternated so any given
location is within reach of both circuits.

How is having two circuits available at alternating receptacles any
improvement over having two circuits available at *every* receptacle?
 
N

Noozer

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's called an Edison circuit. It's used all over. There's nothing "hinky"
about it.
 
I have to disagree, I find the "workability" difference between 12 ga
and 14 ga virtually unnoticeable. 2 ga copper is a bit of a pain to deal
with, but much of anything below that is all the same to me.

I don't agree, but even if there was zero workability difference, that
wouldn't be a valid reason to spend even a nickel extra on a 12W
circuit, or any low-power circuit. The only half-way reasonable
argument I've heard for using 12 on low-power circuits is that it's
more forgiving of bad workmanship. But anyone who needs that crutch
shouldn't be doing electrical work anyway.

Lots of people (including me) waste money when they don't need to, but
we shouldn't encourage the newbs to do that. Ask any question on
Usenet, and far more people will tell you to overdo things than
underdo them. If a guy with a normal budget started building a home,
and followed the Usenet consensus on how to do it, he'd probably run
out of money before he finished the foundation. :)

Wayne
 
D

Doug Miller

Jan 1, 1970
0
Doug said:
It's hinky in my book, and I wouldn't wire it that way.

Fine, don't wire it that way -- but don't tell others it's a bad solution,
just because you don't like/understand it.
It avoids having 240V on a device where most people expect only 120V.

So how, exactly, is that an issue? You can't plug a *single* device into both
sockets of a duplex receptacle at once. Each socket has only 120V; that there
is a 240V potential between the two hots is of no relevance whatever.
I'm fine with cycling through poles / phases box to box, but I don't
like it within a single box in a residential application where joe bozo
might mess with it. People blow things up with some regularity in
industrial environments with three phase "wild leg" delta service, and
in an industrial environment they're supposed to have a clue. Give joe
bozo homeowner an unexpected red wire in the box and he's likely to blow
stuff up too. I think it's an unnecessary risk in a residential
environment.

I'd love to hear your explanation of how this will "blow stuff up."
 
C

clare at snyder.on.ca

Jan 1, 1970
0
Doing that will also put the two outlets on opposite poles / phases,
giving 240V between the upper and lower hot connections. I'm not sure
how that works with the ratings of the break off tabs on a duplex
receptacle. At any rate a hinky solution at best.

Not "hinkey" Required by code in kitchen countertop applications in
Canada. The breakoff tabs are there for that purpose. You remove them.
 
C

clare at snyder.on.ca

Jan 1, 1970
0
I see people below disagree with "hinky". I don't know the term.
However, as the "Joe Blow" guy who messes with outlets occasionally,
I would be quite unhappily surprised to discover by accident that I
could get 220 between some wires on the same outlet. Yikes. Also, I've
got some house intercoms that apparently don't work right when plugged
into "different legs" of the 240. On the other hand, if I were doing it
to my own house, it won't be a surprise so who cares?
(just my 2 cents, etc...)

It's no surprise anyway if you know what you are doing. 3 colours in
the box means their's 220 in there somewhere. Splits will have both
red and black "lives" plus the white "nuetral"
 
Top