# 75R to 50R converter

J

#### Joe G $$Home$$

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi All,

I am looking for ways of converting a 75R Log periodic TV antenna to 50R to
provide a "best" match for my spectrum analyser.

2 Antenna's need to be converted to 50R , and may require different 75R to
50R converters.

a) 80MHz to 500MHz

b) 500MHz to 1GHz

Low power Rx signals only.

Any pointer where to start would be appreciated.

Any pointers would be appreciated.
Joe

P

#### Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Joe G (Home)"
I am looking for ways of converting a 75R Log periodic TV antenna to 50R
to provide a "best" match for my spectrum analyser.

** No need to do that.

The source Z of a wide a band TV antenna is all over the place anyhow.

2 Antenna's need to be converted to 50R , and may require different 75R to
50R converters.

a) 80MHz to 500MHz

b) 500MHz to 1GHz

Low power Rx signals only.

Any pointer where to start would be appreciated.

** Just use 50 ohm co-ax for the feeder.

No useful 75 /50 transformation is possible or needed.

....... Phil

J

#### Joe G $$Home$$

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil Allison said:
"Joe G (Home)"

** No need to do that.

The source Z of a wide a band TV antenna is all over the place anyhow.

** Just use 50 ohm co-ax for the feeder.

No useful 75 /50 transformation is possible or needed.

...... Phil

I'll give it go.

Joe

H

#### Helmut Sennewald

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joe G (Home) said:
Hi All,

I am looking for ways of converting a 75R Log periodic TV antenna to 50R
to provide a "best" match for my spectrum analyser.

2 Antenna's need to be converted to 50R , and may require different 75R to
50R converters.

a) 80MHz to 500MHz

b) 500MHz to 1GHz

Low power Rx signals only.

Any pointer where to start would be appreciated.

Any pointers would be appreciated.
Joe

Hello Joe,

you could do it with a resistive divider. Using the right values will give
you the
corerct termination resistance from both sides.

R1=43.3, R2=86.6

This R2 is simply twice the value of R1. So just use 3 resistors with 43
Ohm.
It's important to have a very low lead inductance. SMT-resistors would be
fine.

43 Ohm
____
75 Ohm side ----|____|-----o-------------- 50 Ohm side
| ____
----|____|--- GND

86 Ohm (or 2*43 Ohm)

Such a passive divider has a gain of 0.44 compared to 0.8 without this
Z-match circuit.
So you will loose half the signal, but you have the advantage of the cable
impedance matching.

Best regards,
Helmut

P

#### Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Helmut Sennewald"
So you will loose half the signal, but you have the advantage of the cable
impedance matching.

** Like chucking out the baby with the bath water.

When are these demented ham radio FOOLS going to learn that cable
matching is something you do at LOAD end.

........ Phil

A

#### Anthony Fremont

Jan 1, 1970
0
Phil said:
"Helmut Sennewald"

** Like chucking out the baby with the bath water.

When are these demented ham radio FOOLS going to learn that cable
matching is something you do at LOAD end.

Then why didn't you suggest a balun? Or do you think it wouldn't make a
difference?

P

#### Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Anthony Fremont"

"Anthony Fremont = Psycho **** from Hell "

The most asinine, most ASD FUCKED pile of sub human

YANK SHIT on all usenet !!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey phil this is serious, can I talk to you for a second?

** Nope .....

Satan would be soo jealous of losing your undivided attention.

Sucking his tiny, cold dick is your full time occupation.

This is SEB, where there are no stupid questions.

** Shame about all the UTTERLY ASININE FUCKWIT assumptions

Oh - now I see my tiny oversight .... all those brain dead scumbags

Yet to come down from the trees.

Still hanging by their tails & eating their own droppings.

Just like YOU !!!!!

You MOTHER FUCKING ASSHOLE

........ Phil

H

#### Helmut Sennewald

Jan 1, 1970
0
Helmut Sennewald said:
Hello Joe,

you could do it with a resistive divider. Using the right values will give
you the
corerct termination resistance from both sides.

R1=43.3, R2=86.6

This R2 is simply twice the value of R1. So just use 3 resistors with 43
Ohm.
It's important to have a very low lead inductance. SMT-resistors would be
fine.

43 Ohm
____
75 Ohm side ----|____|-----o-------------- 50 Ohm side
| ____
----|____|--- GND

86 Ohm (or 2*43 Ohm)

Such a passive divider has a gain of 0.44 compared to 0.8 without this
Z-match circuit.
So you will loose half the signal, but you have the advantage of the cable
impedance matching.

Best regards,
Helmut

Hello,

Here is a picture from an adapter. Most probably using resistors as shown
above.
The specified insertion loss of 5.7dB less is exactly the same as calculated
from the resistors above.

IL = 20*log10(0.422/0,8)

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?kt=1&cc=US&lc=eng&k=11852
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/11852-90009.pdf

Best regards,
Helmut

A

#### Anthony Fremont

Jan 1, 1970
0
You wan't the world to killfile me, but you won't do it yourself? Why not?

Joe should find a broadband balun (unless one is built into the antenna) so
that the coax shield is less of an antenna and more of shield. Odd that a
log periodic would be 75 Ohms, IIRC they are usually in the vicinity of
200 - 300 Ohms UNBALANCED.

J

#### Joe G $$Home$$

Jan 1, 1970
0
Here is a picture from an adapter. Most probably using resistors as shown
above.
The specified insertion loss of 5.7dB less is exactly the same as
calculated from the resistors above.

IL = 20*log10(0.422/0,8)

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?kt=1&cc=US&lc=eng&k=11852
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/11852-90009.pdf

Best regards,
Helmut

Cheers! A bit of searching and I also found Mini Circuits have these with
5.7dB loss...

At this stage I am tinkering... but will get serious later...

Simple to build....

Regards
Joe

J

#### Joe G $$Home$$

Jan 1, 1970
0
Best regards,
Cheers! A bit of searching and I also found Mini Circuits have these with
5.7dB loss...

At this stage I am tinkering... but will get serious later...

Simple to build....

Regards
Joe

Oh... I see you are active on LTSpice... too.

Regards
Joe

M

#### mpm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi All,

I am looking for ways of converting a 75R Log periodic TV antenna to 50R to
provide a "best" match for my spectrum analyser.

2 Antenna's need to be converted to 50R , and may require different 75R to
50R converters.

a) 80MHz to 500MHz

b) 500MHz to 1GHz

Low power Rx signals only.

Any pointer where to start would be appreciated.

Any pointers would be appreciated.
Joe

You need something called a "Minimum Loss Pad"
Lots of people make them. From cheap \$ to very expensive .
I know HP makes them. But that's the expensive variety. Or you can
make one. Ebay, etc..
For TV (US Terrestrial anyway) focus on 50 MHz to 700 MHz.
Anything more that that would just be a waste of money.
After the conversion to DTV, I believe the highest UHF channel will be
51, with probably very few exceptions if any.

-mpm

P

#### Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Helmut Sennewald" [email protected]

= Some Asinine Kraut FUCKWIT !!

Here is a picture from an adapter. Most probably using resistors as shown
above.
The specified insertion loss of 5.7dB less is exactly the same as
calculated from the resistors above.

** Only an UTTER ASS uses resistors for any RF matching job.

**** the HELL OFF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you DEMENTED KRAUT IDIOT !!

....... Phil

J

#### Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Helmut said:
Hello Joe,

you could do it with a resistive divider. Using the right values will give
you the
corerct termination resistance from both sides.

R1=43.3, R2=86.6

This R2 is simply twice the value of R1. So just use 3 resistors with 43
Ohm.
It's important to have a very low lead inductance. SMT-resistors would be
fine.

43 Ohm
____
75 Ohm side ----|____|-----o-------------- 50 Ohm side
| ____
----|____|--- GND

86 Ohm (or 2*43 Ohm)

Such a passive divider has a gain of 0.44 compared to 0.8 without this
Z-match circuit.
So you will loose half the signal, but you have the advantage of the cable
impedance matching.

Or just place a 25ohms resistor in series with the coax. Then the
antenna sees a 75ohms impedance. If the coax is properly terminated at
the other end (by the spectrum analyzer) it should be fine.

However, a TV antenna will show a real 75ohms only at one or two small
frequency bands, if that.

T

#### Tom Bruhns

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi All,

I am looking for ways of converting a 75R Log periodic TV antenna to 50R to
provide a "best" match for my spectrum analyser.

2 Antenna's need to be converted to 50R , and may require different 75R to
50R converters.

a) 80MHz to 500MHz

b) 500MHz to 1GHz

Low power Rx signals only.

Any pointer where to start would be appreciated.

Any pointers would be appreciated.
Joe

There's probably not much real need to do it, but a reasonably low-
loss way is to use a transformer. MiniCircuits ADT1.5-122T or
ADT1.5-17 will do a good job over the whole frequency range you
mention. A log-periodic has at least a chance to maintain a
reasonably constant impedance over a range of frequencies, but you'd
do well to check what the impedance really is, if you have access to a
network analyzer, before messing with matching it to your analyzer.

Before you do any of that, though, consider that there is only 0.18dB
loss of power incurred by connecting a 50 ohm load to a 75 ohm source,
as compared with connecting a 75 ohm load to the 75 ohm source.
introduces more loss than that, and where the gain of the transducer
(antenna) is a function of frequency, and isn't known to even ten
times that inaccuracy. Where it could be worth considering is in a
system with rapid variations over time, where echos at mismatches
cause reflections, and only then in some specific instances. That
doesn't seem to match what you've described.

Cheers,
Tom

M

#### mpm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Before you do any of that, though, consider that there is only 0.18dB
loss of power incurred by connecting a 50 ohm load to a 75 ohm source,
as compared with connecting a 75 ohm load to the 75 ohm source...

Huh?!??

Impedance Power Loss (dB) Voltage Loss (dB)
75 to 50 -5.72 -7.48
50 to 75 -5.72 -3.96
Round Trip -11.44 -11.44

Note that power losses are the same regardless of which way you're
converting.
Voltage losses differ depending on the direction of the impedance
transformation.
As you would expect.

-mpm

T

#### Tom Bruhns

Jan 1, 1970
0
Huh?!??

Impedance Power Loss (dB) Voltage Loss (dB)
75 to 50 -5.72 -7.48
50 to 75 -5.72 -3.96
Round Trip -11.44 -11.44

Note that power losses are the same regardless of which way you're
converting.
Voltage losses differ depending on the direction of the impedance
transformation.
As you would expect.

-mpm

Huh indeed. 75 ohm generator, 2Vrms open circuit. Connect a 75 ohm
load. Power delivered to the load is 1V at 75 ohms, or 13.33
milliwatts. Do you accept that that's the most power you can get from
2V*50/(75+50) = 0.800 volts. 0.8V at 50 ohms is 12.80 milliwatts.
12.8 milliwatts is 0.96 times 13.333 milliwatts. 10*log10(0.96) is
-0.177dB.

The power loss attributable to such a modest impedance mismatch is
generally not enough to worry about.

I really don't know where you got your numbers, but they don't seem to
stand up to analysis. Show us the math and maybe we'll understand
where they came from.

Cheers,
Tom

T

#### Tom Bruhns

Jan 1, 1970
0
Huh?!??

Impedance Power Loss (dB) Voltage Loss (dB)
75 to 50 -5.72 -7.48
50 to 75 -5.72 -3.96
Round Trip -11.44 -11.44

Note that power losses are the same regardless of which way you're
converting.
Voltage losses differ depending on the direction of the impedance
transformation.
As you would expect.

-mpm

Oh, I see--your numbers are for a minimum loss pad. But what I posted
was that you connect the 50 ohm load directly to the 75 ohm generator,
NOT through a pad! Unless you can convince me that the antenna
performance suffers in some way because it's terminated in 50 ohms
instead of 75 ohms, there simply is no need for the pad. In any
event, if you do have some hangup about terminating the antenna into
75 ohms, don't use a pad--use a transformer. The loss will be much
lower. Pads are nice for DC-to-daylight performance, but for the
modest one decade or so of frequency range the OP wanted, the
transformer will be fine.

Cheers,
Tom

R

#### Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi All,

I am looking for ways of converting a 75R Log periodic TV antenna to 50R
to provide a "best" match for my spectrum analyser.

How do you know the Z of the antenna is 75R? I've just done a web search,
and all of the designs that have turned up so far are 50. In this case, a
1:1 balun would be all you need.

Good Luck!
Rich

M

#### mpm

Jan 1, 1970
0
Oh, I see--your numbers are for a minimum loss pad.  But what I posted
was that you connect the 50 ohm load directly to the 75 ohm generator....

In any event, I'm glad you deciphered that post because I was
definitely not looking forward to typing in those equations using
plain text format.

I don't know? The OP asked for 1 GHz. That's quite a lot.
I think a simple transformer would introduce unacceptable bandwidth
limitations.
Certainly there would be group delay and response issues.

Also as I'm sure you're aware, most useful "answers" are not displayed
on the spectrum analyzer screen itself, but are instead calculated
from the displayed results. I'm not sure I would (or could?) trust
calculations where I was not controlling for RF Impedances.

Now of course, for un-amplified off-air measurements (if that's what
the OP intends to do), the loss of an L-Pad might be too high, in
which case, he needs a network analyzer too so he can properly
characterize the impedance of his setup. Ditto if he ever adds a
preamp.

But if he's just gonna check center-freq and maybe some simple CW

-mpm

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