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Aldi £59 petrol generator and television

J

Jamie

Jan 1, 1970
0
David said:
Some of the extra money paind for more expensive generators goes towards
the extra electronics which ensure a stable a/c output similar to mains
current. This is generaly described as an inverter system

Believe the instructions.
It is not suitable.

There are warnings against these very cheap generators on caravan and
mobile home discussion fora, as they can damage the internal electrics
of the more sophisticated systems.

Cheers

Dave R
If you want my honest opinion, I wouldn't use any crap devices that
couldn't handle a noisy or shaky power line.. Do you really think the
commercial power is a 100% ?

If the device can't handle a little frequency and voltage variation
with a little noise on it, then the device was designed as a cheap, get
it out the door garbage money maker.

P.S.

I have the 2000 Watt Peak generator that Aldi's has or did have. Yes
, it is a little noisy however, frequency only varies +/- 3 Hz from what
I could see and voltage was with in reason under load changes..

The wave form on it looked almost as good as my 5000 watt Honda
generator..

So putting that into prospective, I guess if you think the Aldi
generate is crap, maybe I shouldn't use my Honda either!


jamie
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
You don't know that.

Yes I do.
For all you know, the output might be covered in crap like ignition noise.

And a SMPS won't give a damn.
In which case, a lot of switchers will fail sooner or later.
Fantasy.

I don't know what your background is

Leaves yours for dead.
- I've never seen you on S.E.R. before so I guess you're here as a result
of the cross-posting. For all I know, you might be the best SMPS designer
in the world, and your efforts might be bomb-proof. But for every one of
you, there are a thousand Chinese sticking their shit-street designs in
everything from light bulbs to vacuum cleaners. I see this crap every day
(as well as some good ones) and many of the designs do, as I said, work by
the skin of their teeth. If you throw mains at them that's covered in
spikes and other garbage, they *will* fail.
Fantasy.

It's not at all rare to see items such as TV sets that have been used on
the end of cheap inverters and generators, with either blown power
supplies, or corrupted EEPROMs.

Its nothing like as common as you originally claimed.
I would also point out that many cheap Chinese designs without a PFC front
end rated to 260 volts AC, have a single main filter cap rated at 400 v.
Even with mains at the high end of 'normal', that doesn't allow a lot of
overhead. If the output of this generator is poorly regulated, the input
voltage to the power supply could easily take this cap close to its
limits.

But it doesn't just curl up and die when that happens.
In which case such a supply may well 'give a damn'.

Unlikely.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've read a fair quantity of your messages on this topic.

I've read all of yours.
All of them are much like this one. It states your opinion, position,
or pontification. There is no corroborating information, no examples,

Yours in spades.
and no useful information.

Everyone can see for themselves that that is a lie.
While you are certainly entitled to an opinion,

And you aren't, particularly with that
absolute claim you made at the top.
I believe that you will be more effective if you kindly explain your
position.

I did that with the basics on whether SMPSs give a damn
about the voltage within limits and the frequency in spades.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
It is very common for the cheapo Chinese switchers used in items like DVD
players, to fail in this way.

You have no idea that they did fail by overvoltage.
They are extremely susceptible to secondary side filter cap failure -
typically bulging and high ESR.

Doesn't mean that they failed by overvoltage, just bad caps.
This usually results in the rail voltage dropping. Most of these supplies
take their control loop reference from just one of the output rails, and
if it happens to be the one that's got the bad cap on - often the case

Another sweeping statement that can't be substantiated.
- then the supply tries to crank it back up to the correct level, which
results in all the other rails going way up. This often results in
destruction of LSIs elsewhere in the item.

Not even possible when it's the rail that
powers the LSIs that has the bad cap.
As a matter of interest, better quality multi-rail switchers used in some
TV sets, do have a form of 'crowbar' in that all of the rails are
monitored for output voltage, and if any become excessive, they trip a
shutdown circuit on the main supply control IC.

That's not a crowbar. A crowbar shorts out the rail like a real crowbar
would do.
The Vestel 17PWxx series that were used in a number of manufacturer's TVs,
are a good example of such.

But its not a crowbar.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK. You can shut up and piss off now.

You can go and **** yourself.
I've lost all interest in you and anything you have to say.

Yeah, fools like you hate it when you
nose is rubbed in your terminal stupiditys.

<reams of your puerile attempts at insults any 2 year
old could leave for dead flushed where they belong>
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
Some gutless fuckwit desperately cowering behind
Arfa Daily <[email protected]> desperately attempted
to bullshit and insult its way out of its predicament and fooled
absolutely no one at all, as always.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
Some gutless fuckwit desperately cowering behind
Arfa Daily <[email protected]> desperately attempted
to bullshit and insult its way out of its predicament and fooled
absolutely no one at all, as always.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yep. Too bad it was incomplete.

Just like yours on how SMPSs fail was.
Generators have an irritating habit of producing distorted
waveforms when loaded unevenly between phases.

Irrelevant to the generator being discussed which can't do that.
This is fairly common with generators that have
two phases, 180 degrees apart, for outputs.

But the generator being discussed doesn't.
Load one at 400VA and look at the waveform. It's fairly ugly.

And you don't get that with the generator being discussed.
The problem is that all switching supplies that actually comply
with some governments conducted radiation standard has a
50/60 Hz low pass filter on the AC input. That's great for keeping
the high frequency hash from radiating out the power line, but not
so great when presented with an input waveform full of harmonics.

You don't get that with the generator being discussed.
It's not too horrible, but it is a consideration.

Not with the generator being discussed it isnt.
For example, if the input to the switcher were a square wave,

It isnt with the generator being discussed.
1/3 of the power would be in the harmonics.

It isnt with the generator being discussed.
That power has to go somewhere.

Not with the generator being discussed it doesn't.
Some is reflected, but most of it
is dissipated in the input filter.

Not with the generator being discussed it isnt.
At 400 VA, that's about 133 watts of smog.

Not with the generator being discussed it isnt.
With an unbalance load,

Can't happen with the generator being discussed.
most generators will have up to 5% of the power in harmonics.

Not with the generator being discussed it doesn't.
It's worse for small generators because the cores
like to saturate at rated power output. At 400 VA
(one phase), that's about 20 watts dissipated.

Not with the generator being discussed it isnt.
Some switchers can handle it, others prefer to blow
the input fuse, if there is an input fuse or breaker.

Doesn't happen with the generator being
discussed driving the TV being discussed.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
An unbalanced load isn't required, which only creates
even order (asymmetric) distortion. A single phase
generator will happily create odd order (symmetrical)
distortion without an unbalanced generator load.

But you don't get anything like the amount of distortion
you were going on about, so it isnt a problem with an SMPS
being powered from that particular generator being discussed.
For example:
<http://www2.electronicproducts.com/...nowhere-article-fapo_Falcon_mar2009-html.aspx>
Scroll down to the oscilloscope photograph. Note the noise and
distortion.

No SMPS will have a problem with that.
This is fairly typical of cheapo small geneators
with mechanical regulators. I've seen worse.

You don't know that the generator
being discussed is anything like that.
It's this garbage waveform that causes switching power supplies to
complain

You don't know that the generator being discussed will produce that result.
and UPS power supplies to refuse to run on generator power.

One of those wasn't even being discussed.
Incidentally, if you plan to look at the waveforms produced by a
gasoline generator with an oscillosope, use two scope probes and
differential inputs. One probe connects to each side of the power
line. The two probe grounds go to the generator frame ground.
The scope input selector is set to A-B. That will remove any common
mode noise on the display, and provide some protection against
accidentally getting the oscilloscope case at line potential.

No news to me.
 
T

Tim Streater

Jan 1, 1970
0
[not much]

Why are your posts so content-free?
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
If
you had impeccable credentials, were a recognized authority, had
previously demonstrated expertise in this area, and perhaps were a
Nobel Prize recipient,


Er Jeff, this is Rod Speed, ultimate Internet idiot par excellence you
are addressing.

Don't waste our bandwidth,.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
The oscilloscope photos in the URL's mentioned
show the output waveforms with and without loads.

Yes, but you don't in fact get anything like the distortion
that you were going on about with unbalanced loads on
2 phase generators which aren't even relevant to the
particular generator and load being discussed.
As I indicated, and you apparently missed, it is
NOT necessary to have an unbalanced load on the
generator in order to produce a distorted waveform.

Didn't miss anything. The distortion actually seen with the
particular generator and load being discussed is nothing
like enough to be a problem with a well designed SMPS.
Also, it's a fair assumption that this 800 watt generator is
going to be powering more than one device while camping.

Yes, but that's not necessarily much of a load.
Besides the TV, there might be some lamps, a laptop
charger, satellite TV receiver, smartphone charger, inkjet
printer, and all the conveniences of portable modern living.

None of which are much of a load.
In general, the generator waveforms become more distorted with increased
load.

Duh. But even with all of those you listed, it
won't be a problem for a well designed SMPS.
As I previously suggested, some substantiation would be helpful.

You didn't provide any of that yourself until I rubbed your nose
in the fact that you never provided any yourself on your claim
about how SMPSs fail.
If you had impeccable credentials, were a recognized authority,
had previously demonstrated expertise in this area, and perhaps
were a Nobel Prize recipient, I might accept your unsubstantiated
judgments without question. However, lacking those requirements,
and being apparently only able to produce one-line erroneous
statements of negligible value, you do not qualify.

You in spades with your claim about how SMPSs fail.
Please explain why numerous articles on generator
to UPS compatibility should be ignored.

Because we arent discussing UPSs, we are discussing TVs instead.
In the past odd 20 years, I've run emergency generator versus
switching power supply problems many times. My favorite was while
working with computahs at a medical billing office. Someone dragged
in a Genrac 8kw(?) generator and wired it to a transfer box. It was a
professionally done installation by a licensed electrician. I
stupidly suggested we do a dry run with the building on full power,
and was immediately assigned the task. The day arrived, the big
switch was thrown, the generator started immediately, and about 30
assorted UPS backup power supplies beeped a few times, and shut
down in self defense. That powered down all the servers and
network hardware, which effectively shut down the network.

Completely and utterly irrelevant to what was being discussed,
that PARTICULAR generator mentioned in the subject and a TV.
On the APC SmartUPS line (as opposed to the BackUPS line), there
is a switch to reduce the sensitivity to input waveform distortion.
We went around flipping switches and rebooting servers (after a 30
minutes file system check). When everything was back up and running,
the power was again switched off, and again all the UPS's shut down.

Completely and utterly irrelevant to what was being discussed,
that PARTICULAR generator mentioned in the subject and a TV.
I drove to my palatial office and back with an oscilloscope to look at
the waveform. Even without a load, it looked something like this:
<http://www.electronicproducts.com/images2/fapo_Falcon01_mar2009.gif>
When I added all the non-computer loads to the Genrac generator, the
waveform became asymmetrical, because the load was not balanced
between the two phases. My clamp-on ammeter showed about 10A on one
leg and 7A on the other. It didn't take much to cause problems.
After about 8 power fail simulations, we were never able to bring
everything back up gracefully on generator power. It wasn't just the
UPS's that were having issues. The DVR for the security camera
systems refused to run. The wall warts for powering some Netgear
switches blew up and had to be replaced. Several CRT monitors acted
strangely and refused to produce a stable display. The Lucent phone
system would go into protection mode intermittently.
After the exercise was over, I elected to restore two of the servers
from backup tapes, because I didn't want to take the chance that all
the power thrashing had caused any data corruption. That took most of
the night. When business resumed on Monday, it was soon discovered
that the one server that I did NOT restore, had some minor data
corruption.
There was no way the office was going to run on this 6kw(?) generator.
The generator was removed, permits arranged, and a rather monstrous
and expensive 25kw diesel generator was installed. Attached to the
power leads was a large box full of low pass filter components to
remove spikes. I didn't need to look at the waveforms as it ran the
various UPS devices and switching power supplies perfectly.

All completely and utterly irrelevant to what was being discussed,
that PARTICULAR generator mentioned in the subject and a TV.
You don't know what I know.

I do know that you were rabbiting on about
two phase generators and UPSs that have
NOTHING to do with what the OP asked about.
True. You haven't learned anything.

Yep, none of the irrelevant shit you posted is any news to me.
I judge people by their willingness and abilities to learn.

No one give a flying red **** how you stupidly 'judge' people.

Particularly when you keep raving on about about situations that
have NOTHING to do with what was actually being discussed.
You fail both criteria.

Everyone can see for themselves that you are lying.

<reams of your puerile attempts at insults that any 2 year
old could leave for dead flushed where they belong>
 
C

Cydrome Leader

Jan 1, 1970
0
In sci.electronics.repair Arfa Daily said:
I repair hundreds of the things, and irrespective of the topology of any
individual design, most work by the skin of their teeth. Left alone, in
general, today's generation are fairly reliable, but in my experience,
subject them to the slightest abuse, and they fail - often catastrophically

Arfa

I can't imagine a 2 stroke aldi generator would even last long enough to
destroy any electronics. the thing must last about 2-3 minutes tops before
seizing, assuming it even starts out of the box.
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

Jan 1, 1970
0
I can't imagine a 2 stroke aldi generator would even last long enough to
destroy any electronics. the thing must last about 2-3 minutes tops
before seizing, assuming it even starts out of the box.

That'll be why they give a three year warranty? Instant money back -
provided you have the receipt. Wish others did as well.
 
C

Cydrome Leader

Jan 1, 1970
0
In sci.electronics.repair "Dave Plowman (News) said:
That'll be why they give a three year warranty? Instant money back -
provided you have the receipt. Wish others did as well.

it could be a 100 year warranty. There's no way such a generator isn't
complete trash and won't have the endurance of a birthday cake candle.
 
J

Jamie

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cydrome said:
I can't imagine a 2 stroke aldi generator would even last long enough to
destroy any electronics. the thing must last about 2-3 minutes tops before
seizing, assuming it even starts out of the box.
We have a local iced cream truck that rides around through the park at
various parts of the day. It has one of those hanging on the back,
operating the freezer I presume. It seems to work for them just fine,
sounds funny though ;)

Jamie
 
B

brass monkey

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jamie said:
We have a local iced cream truck that rides around through the park at
various parts of the day. It has one of those hanging on the back,
operating the freezer I presume. It seems to work for them just fine,
sounds funny though ;)

Jamie

That one tells jokes?
I'll get me coat.
 
B

Bruce Esquibel

Jan 1, 1970
0
In sci.electronics.repair Cydrome Leader said:
I can't imagine a 2 stroke aldi generator would even last long enough to
destroy any electronics. the thing must last about 2-3 minutes tops before
seizing, assuming it even starts out of the box.


I dunno anything about the Aldi one but several years ago I bought a cheap 2
stroke, 800w, made-in-china one from Menards for $100 or less and it's still
working fine.

We had a nasty ice storm, lost power and after the house dropped to 60, it
was either do something or find a hotel.

It chugged along for hours sitting outside in 20F degree temps, we have hot
water gas heat so it only needed to run the circulation pump. Just did a
quick mod to the electrical on the furnace and ran a heavy guage cord thru a
drilled hole in the wall.

Since then I've used it several times, usually starts on the 3rd or 4th
pull, even after sitting a year or more, stale gas and everything that goes
with it.

Don't get me wrong, contruction wise it's a peice of crap but seems to be
hanging in there just fine.

If I lived in an area that has regular outages, this thing wouldn't be in my
top 10 list (or top 100) but for the occasional use and price, it's just not
as bad as you think.

-bruce
[email protected]
 
I can't imagine a 2 stroke aldi generator would even last long enough to
destroy any electronics. the thing must last about 2-3 minutes tops before
seizing, assuming it even starts out of the box.
So you lack a grasp of reality. Reliable 2 cycle engines are quite
common - they have been used in chain saws, outboard motors, and a
variety of other uses for more than half a century. The chief cause
of premature failure is some idiot (look in to a mirror for an
example) failing to properly mix the oil and gas.

The generator (actually an alternator) is also trivial. By
incorporating a small permanent magnet into the rotor it would be
trivial to build a self-energizing alternator; output voltage
regulation would be done by stepping the output voltage down,
rectifying it, and varying the current to the rotor windings, just as
is done in an automotive alternator. That output voltage should be
quite stable.

Admitedly, frequency regulation would be poor. They probably use an
air vane governor for speed regulation.

As far as the original question, I wouldn't suggest anyone try to use
one for any application the manufacturer says is unsuitable. But I
would be more concerned about the unstable frequency than the output
voltage. I've seen many LCD monitors whose power supply is rated for
input voltages ranging from 90 to 275 volts AC at 50 - 60 Hz.

PlainBill
 
I dunno anything about the Aldi one but several years ago I bought a cheap 2
stroke, 800w, made-in-china one from Menards for $100 or less and it's still
working fine.

We had a nasty ice storm, lost power and after the house dropped to 60, it
was either do something or find a hotel.

It chugged along for hours sitting outside in 20F degree temps, we have hot
water gas heat so it only needed to run the circulation pump. Just did a
quick mod to the electrical on the furnace and ran a heavy guage cord thru a
drilled hole in the wall.

Since then I've used it several times, usually starts on the 3rd or 4th
pull, even after sitting a year or more, stale gas and everything that goes
with it.

Don't get me wrong, contruction wise it's a peice of crap but seems to be
hanging in there just fine.

If I lived in an area that has regular outages, this thing wouldn't be in my
top 10 list (or top 100) but for the occasional use and price, it's just not
as bad as you think.

-bruce
[email protected]
This sounds like the one sold by Harbor Freight Tools.

PlainBill
 
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