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Analog versus digital: power consumption

J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello All,

When I got the latest IEEE Spectrum several papers were quite
interesting but this one stuck out. It's about analog, digital and human
body signal processing and mostly related to hearing. How well each
functions, how much power is needed and so on. The article is online:

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/may06/3433

It looks like analog still has a substantial power advantage. What do
you guys think?

Regards, Joerg
 
R

Reg Edwards

Jan 1, 1970
0
It looks like analog still has a substantial power advantage. What
do
you guys think?
=======================================
You are correct. When it comes to signal power and noise power the
most efficient, least error, coding method is to translate the signal
into Gaussian white noise.

And white noise is certainly not digital.
 
I

Ian Stirling

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Hello All,

When I got the latest IEEE Spectrum several papers were quite
interesting but this one stuck out. It's about analog, digital and human
body signal processing and mostly related to hearing. How well each
functions, how much power is needed and so on. The article is online:

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/may06/3433

It looks like analog still has a substantial power advantage. What do
you guys think?

Certainly.
If you know exactly what processing is required, and it can be simply
implemented in a compact form.
If you'd like to be able to trim the exact response, or even have the
option of changing it drastically, then digital is usually better.
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello All,

When I got the latest IEEE Spectrum several papers were quite
interesting but this one stuck out. It's about analog, digital and human
body signal processing and mostly related to hearing. How well each
functions, how much power is needed and so on. The article is online:

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/may06/3433

It looks like analog still has a substantial power advantage. What do
you guys think?

I think the IEEE spends too much time proving the obvious in the most
complex way possible.

The two lowest powered hearing aids are the ear trumpet and a little sign
that says "speak up damya". Both are analog and draw zero battery
current. No digital circuit can do better.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello Ian,

Certainly.
If you know exactly what processing is required, and it can be simply
implemented in a compact form.
If you'd like to be able to trim the exact response, or even have the
option of changing it drastically, then digital is usually better.


The challenge would be to pre-determine how much change is really
required in the field. Filter slopes could be adjusted nicely with
switched capacitor filters. But it seems that technique has gone into a
boutique corner when I look at how quickly those chips have vanished for
the discrete world. I am guilty as well but I didn't use them because
the prices never really came down enough.

Regards, Joerg
 
L

legg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello All,

When I got the latest IEEE Spectrum several papers were quite
interesting but this one stuck out. It's about analog, digital and human
body signal processing and mostly related to hearing. How well each
functions, how much power is needed and so on. The article is online:

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/may06/3433

It looks like analog still has a substantial power advantage. What do
you guys think?

The fact that the human body runs all day on a peanut butter sandwich
and a glass of milk is beside the point.

Life is more than just watts dissipated by meat ( I hope ).

RL
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello RL,
The fact that the human body runs all day on a peanut butter sandwich
and a glass of milk is beside the point.

Life is more than just watts dissipated by meat ( I hope ).

But it sure is impressive. However, when taking the bicycle to travel
the 70 miles from my parent's house to my college town I found that in
terms of Dollars I spent more on fuel than my car would have needed. The
liquid kind of fuel :)

Regards, Joerg
 
M

martin griffith

Jan 1, 1970
0
The fact that the human body runs all day on a peanut butter sandwich
and a glass of milk is beside the point.

Life is more than just watts dissipated by meat ( I hope ).

RL
"They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"Meat. They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts
of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all
the way through. They're completely meat."

"That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the
stars?"

"They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from
them. The signals come from machines."

"So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."

"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made
the machines."

"That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to
believe in sentient meat."

"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only
sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat."

"Maybe they're like the orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence
that goes through a meat stage."

"Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for
several of their life spans, which didn't take long. Do you have any
idea what's the life span of meat?"

"Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the
weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside."

"Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads, like the
weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way
through."

"No brain?"

"Oh, there's a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out
of meat! That's what I've been trying to tell you."

"So ... what does the thinking?"

"You're not understanding, are you? You're refusing to deal with what
I'm telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat."

"Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"

"Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The
meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I
have to start all over?"

"Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat."

"Thank you. Finally. Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And
they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of
their years."

"Omigod. So what does this meat have in mind?"

"First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the
Universe, contact other sentiences, swap ideas and information. The
usual."

"We're supposed to talk to meat."

"That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio.
'Hello. Anyone out there. Anybody home.' That sort of thing."

"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"
"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."

"I thought you just told me they used radio."

"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know
how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by
flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air
through their meat."

"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you
advise?"

"Officially or unofficially?"

"Both."

"Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and
all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe,
without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase
the records and forget the whole thing."

"I was hoping you would say that."

"It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make
contact with meat?"

"I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's
it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with
here?"

"Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat
containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they can only
travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and
makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim.
Infinitesimal, in fact."

"So we just pretend there's no one home in the Universe."

"That's it."

"Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones
who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you probed? You're sure
they won't remember?"

"They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads
and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them."

"A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's
dream."

"And we marked the entire sector unoccupied."

"Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others?
Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?"

"Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a
class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations
ago, wants to be friendly again."

"They always come around."

"And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the
Universe would be if one were all alone ..."

the end


martin
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 17 May 2006 02:53:04 +0200, martin griffith

[snip]
"They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"Meat. They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts
of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all
the way through. They're completely meat."

"That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the
stars?"

"They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from
them. The signals come from machines."

"So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."

"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made
the machines."

"That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to
believe in sentient meat."

"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only
sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat."

"Maybe they're like the orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence
that goes through a meat stage."

"Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for
several of their life spans, which didn't take long. Do you have any
idea what's the life span of meat?"

"Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the
weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside."

"Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads, like the
weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way
through."

"No brain?"

"Oh, there's a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out
of meat! That's what I've been trying to tell you."

"So ... what does the thinking?"

"You're not understanding, are you? You're refusing to deal with what
I'm telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat."

"Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"

"Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The
meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I
have to start all over?"

"Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat."

"Thank you. Finally. Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And
they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of
their years."

"Omigod. So what does this meat have in mind?"

"First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the
Universe, contact other sentiences, swap ideas and information. The
usual."

"We're supposed to talk to meat."

"That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio.
'Hello. Anyone out there. Anybody home.' That sort of thing."

"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"
"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."

"I thought you just told me they used radio."

"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know
how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by
flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air
through their meat."

"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you
advise?"

"Officially or unofficially?"

"Both."

"Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and
all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe,
without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase
the records and forget the whole thing."

"I was hoping you would say that."

"It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make
contact with meat?"

"I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's
it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with
here?"

"Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat
containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they can only
travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and
makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim.
Infinitesimal, in fact."

"So we just pretend there's no one home in the Universe."

"That's it."

"Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones
who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you probed? You're sure
they won't remember?"

"They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads
and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them."

"A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's
dream."

"And we marked the entire sector unoccupied."

"Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others?
Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?"

"Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a
class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations
ago, wants to be friendly again."

"They always come around."

"And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the
Universe would be if one were all alone ..."

the end


martin

Bwahahahaha! ROTFLMAO! Very nicely done, Martin!

...Jim Thompson
 
M

martin griffith

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 17 May 2006 02:53:04 +0200, martin griffith

[snip]
"They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"Meat. They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"
snip bandwidth
Bwahahahaha! ROTFLMAO! Very nicely done, Martin!

...Jim Thompson
Not my work, unfortunately. these days I just cut 'n paste circuits
from data sheets

http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html

But keeping an eye on boingboing and digg puts the repuglicans and the
weanies into perspective


martin
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
When I got the latest IEEE Spectrum several papers were quite
interesting but this one stuck out. It's about analog, digital and human
body signal processing and mostly related to hearing. How well each
functions, how much power is needed and so on. The article is online:

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/may06/3433

It looks like analog still has a substantial power advantage. What do
you guys think?

Thanx for the refresher of why that magazine is not worth the time to
read it. That Sishawasnikar or whoever has the cochlea theroy of
operation all wrong- not to mention his condescending simplifications of
everything else were quite sickening.
 
K

Klaus Kragelund

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ken said:
I think the IEEE spends too much time proving the obvious in the most
complex way possible.

I second that. We subscribe to the IEEE and combined with my colleagues
I think we only find a couple of articles per year that looks partly
interesting (how many more ways to make a matrix converter can be
found)

Often these Ph. D guys (sorry - no offense) has no clue getting a real
circuit to work

Regards

Klaus
 
R

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hello RL,


But it sure is impressive. However, when taking the bicycle to travel
the 70 miles from my parent's house to my college town I found that in
terms of Dollars I spent more on fuel than my car would have needed. The
liquid kind of fuel :)

I was grocery shopping the other day, and there was a display where they
had 16 oz. bottles of water on special: only $1.00! Lessee, two pints in
a quart, four quarts in a gallon - that's EIGHT BUCKS A GALLON! And people
complain about the price of gasoline?

Thanks,
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 17 May 2006 02:53:04 +0200, martin griffith

[snip]
"They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"Meat. They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts
of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all
the way through. They're completely meat."

"That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the
stars?"

"They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from
them. The signals come from machines."

"So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."

"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made
the machines."

"That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to
believe in sentient meat."

"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only
sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat."

"Maybe they're like the orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence
that goes through a meat stage."

"Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for
several of their life spans, which didn't take long. Do you have any
idea what's the life span of meat?"

"Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the
weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside."

"Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads, like the
weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way
through."

"No brain?"

"Oh, there's a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out
of meat! That's what I've been trying to tell you."

"So ... what does the thinking?"

"You're not understanding, are you? You're refusing to deal with what
I'm telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat."

"Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"

"Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The
meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I
have to start all over?"

"Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat."

"Thank you. Finally. Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And
they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of
their years."

"Omigod. So what does this meat have in mind?"

"First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the
Universe, contact other sentiences, swap ideas and information. The
usual."

"We're supposed to talk to meat."

"That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio.
'Hello. Anyone out there. Anybody home.' That sort of thing."

"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"
"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."

"I thought you just told me they used radio."

"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know
how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by
flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air
through their meat."

"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you
advise?"

"Officially or unofficially?"

"Both."

"Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and
all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe,
without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase
the records and forget the whole thing."

"I was hoping you would say that."

"It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make
contact with meat?"

"I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's
it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with
here?"

"Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat
containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they can only
travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and
makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim.
Infinitesimal, in fact."

"So we just pretend there's no one home in the Universe."

"That's it."

"Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones
who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you probed? You're sure
they won't remember?"

"They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads
and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them."

"A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's
dream."

"And we marked the entire sector unoccupied."

"Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others?
Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?"

"Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a
class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations
ago, wants to be friendly again."

"They always come around."

"And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the
Universe would be if one were all alone ..."

the end


martin

Bwahahahaha! ROTFLMAO! Very nicely done, Martin!
http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html

Cheers!
Rich
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 17 May 2006 13:02:53 -0400, Spehro Pefhany

[snip]
I get 500ml (17oz) bottles of spring water on sale for 0.12 each.
That's about 1/4 the price of regular gasoline. Of course they're more
like $1. or $1.19 cold at convenience stores, so there are advantages
to owning a fridge. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

I recently bought flats of 48 pints at Sam's Club for $4.19 and sold
them to the Girl Scouts for 50¢ each ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
I was grocery shopping the other day, and there was a display where they
had 16 oz. bottles of water on special: only $1.00! Lessee, two pints in
a quart, four quarts in a gallon - that's EIGHT BUCKS A GALLON! And people
complain about the price of gasoline?

Thanks,
Rich

I get 500ml (17oz) bottles of spring water on sale for 0.12 each.
That's about 1/4 the price of regular gasoline. Of course they're more
like $1. or $1.19 cold at convenience stores, so there are advantages
to owning a fridge. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
R

Rich, but drunk

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 17 May 2006 13:02:53 -0400, Spehro Pefhany

[snip]
I get 500ml (17oz) bottles of spring water on sale for 0.12 each.
That's about 1/4 the price of regular gasoline. Of course they're more
like $1. or $1.19 cold at convenience stores, so there are advantages
to owning a fridge. ;-)

I recently bought flats of 48 pints at Sam's Club for $4.19 and sold
them to the Girl Scouts for 50¢ each ;-)

Well, there we have it, folks! Jim Thompson has just admitted that he
rips off girl scouts.

Must take one helluva man!

Thanks,
Rich
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Wed, 17 May 2006 13:02:53 -0400, Spehro Pefhany

[snip]
I get 500ml (17oz) bottles of spring water on sale for 0.12 each.
That's about 1/4 the price of regular gasoline. Of course they're more
like $1. or $1.19 cold at convenience stores, so there are advantages
to owning a fridge. ;-)

I recently bought flats of 48 pints at Sam's Club for $4.19 and sold
them to the Girl Scouts for 50¢ each ;-)

Well, there we have it, folks! Jim Thompson has just admitted that he
rips off girl scouts.

Must take one helluva man!

Thanks,
Rich

As usual you fucked up and drew the wrong conclusion...

We sold them to 261 attendees at a father-daughter fishing at a local
lake.

The profits went into the troop bank account.

...Jim Thompson
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Jan 1, 1970
0
Klaus said:
I second that. We subscribe to the IEEE and combined with my colleagues
I think we only find a couple of articles per year that looks partly
interesting (how many more ways to make a matrix converter can be
found)

Often these Ph. D guys (sorry - no offense) has no clue getting a real
circuit to work

You're so right. Of course, holders of BSEE degrees are no longer
required to know which end of a soldering iron to hold, so what do you
expect?

On the other hand, academic and other research folks are stuck on this
treadmill--it doesn't matter how good your work is, if someone's done it
before, you're a schmuck. Fortunately reviewers aren't that
knowledgeable, so the same stuff gets published over and over at
intervals of 20 years...like the guys who figured out how to use Z
transforms to design analog filters. My only pure theory paper came to
grief when I discovered (after sending it in) that the result had first
been obtained by Lord Rayleigh in about 1880.

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs
 
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