Maker Pro
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ASCII Circuits

A

Andreas Weber

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Newsgroup,
I'm the author from AACircuit (Andy's ASCII Circuit) and 3 years ago, I
released the first version of it(formely known as "ASCII-PAINT").

now I read Gary Richardson's posting:
You might try my ascii schematic drawing program. I think you will
find >it easier to use than Andy's and it has a few more features.

What do YOU think?
Should I invest time for further development? What should I improve?
Is it too difficult to use my program?

Best regards, Andy
 
R

Robert C Monsen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Andreas Weber said:
Hi Newsgroup,
I'm the author from AACircuit (Andy's ASCII Circuit) and 3 years
ago, I released the first version of it(formely known as
"ASCII-PAINT").

now I read Gary Richardson's posting:
find >it easier to use than Andy's and it has a few more features.

What do YOU think?
Should I invest time for further development? What should I improve?
Is it too difficult to use my program?

Best regards, Andy

First of all, thanks for the program. It makes it possible to draw
ascii schematics much more quickly than before. Posting schematics to
sci.electronics.basics would be such a pain without it that I wouldn't
do it. (Most people post the output of CAD programs to
alt.binaries.schematics.electronic, but messages there don't get
archived by google, and are much shorter lived than those posted to
sci.electronics.basics)

As far as usability, its pretty good. With respect to Mr Richardson, I
like it better than the python one he posted.

Here are my issues:

1) The arrangement of the scroll bars within the windows is a bit
awkward. When the program starts up on my system, I always have a set
of scroll bars, and then, inside that view, another set of scroll bars
for the components. I'd prefer not to have those outer scroll bars at
all, and have the program simply show the component scroll bar. Also,
being able to resize the inner pane so I could view all the components
at once would be nice.

More components would be nice; a zener diode picture is the main one I
always seem to be missing. Not a big deal. There is a component editor
in recent versions. I havn't played with it, but if one could add,
save, export new components, that would be ideal.

Another thing, it would be really nice to be able to move sections of
the schematic around; I find myself erasing and redoing sections when
I 'paint myself into a corner'. Being able to easily move parts around
with a selection cut and paste scheme would be great. The 'add/delete
lines/columns' scheme isn't as nice as the cut/paste would be.

A final comment is that it would be nice if the program remembered
window location, size, etc.

Again, thanks for the great program.

Regards,
Bob Monsen
 
A

andy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Newsgroup,
I'm the author from AACircuit (Andy's ASCII Circuit) and 3 years ago, I
released the first version of it(formely known as "ASCII-PAINT").

now I read Gary Richardson's posting:
find >it easier to use than Andy's and it has a few more features.

What do YOU think?
Should I invest time for further development? What should I improve?
Is it too difficult to use my program?

Best regards, Andy

It would be nice to have a linux version. But it does work OK using wine
(a windows api for linux), so not a great problem.
 
R

Rich Webb

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Newsgroup,
I'm the author from AACircuit (Andy's ASCII Circuit) and 3 years ago, I
released the first version of it(formely known as "ASCII-PAINT").

Thank you! A great program.
now I read Gary Richardson's posting:
find >it easier to use than Andy's and it has a few more features.

What do YOU think?
Should I invest time for further development? What should I improve?
Is it too difficult to use my program?

Well, Gary was forthright in announcing that he was initially interested
in creating a Python version of your app. Competition is a Good Thing.

Personally, I find AACircuit easier to use.

One thing that would be a handy addition would be the ability to either
(or both) shift-select or drag-select multiple objects which could then
be moved or rotated as a group.
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm the author from AACircuit (Andy's ASCII Circuit) and 3 years ago, I
released the first version of it(formely known as "ASCII-PAINT").

now I read Gary Richardson's posting:

What do YOU think?
Should I invest time for further development? What should I improve?
Is it too difficult to use my program?

Grüß dich!

When I first saw it, I thought, "Now this works very nicely and it's not a
complex or difficult program -- great implementation!" However, I didn't like
the style of parts included, so I then set out to edit them (vielen dank for
including that feature!) I might like a slightly larger space to work in for
some parts, but I understand a need for some limit. I'm happy about the delete
column and row and insert column and row features (even nicer might be to be
able to select a region and then say 'CROP' to extract it and reset it to the
upper left corner, but what is there already works acceptably.)

But it's a collection of small issues that keep me from using it. Partly, the
wiring methods bug me and need 'patching' when I'm done. Partly, I have to
enter text in a box before I can place it, rather than just clicking on a spot
and then typing. Partly, it's the constant redraws and resulting flickering.

Frankly, I think I would use it as a tool if it supported a straight text typing
mode where I could use the arrow keys and space bar and the like to move around
and type in characters where I needed them. If that were present in the program
it would be at least as good as any regular text editor and most likely better
because of the specialized features. But as it is, in some ways it is worse
than having a simple text editor. Enough so that I don't use it. (I have used
your program to paste in a schematic in which I needed to trim off excess left
side spaces and where simple editors don't do that for me.)

But it's close. That's just my opinion and not particularly well thought out as
I figured a sooner opinion might be better than a later one.

Jon
 
G

Gary Richardson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jonathan Kirwan said:
Grüß dich!

When I first saw it, I thought, "Now this works very nicely and it's not a
complex or difficult program -- great implementation!" However, I didn't like
the style of parts included, so I then set out to edit them (vielen dank for
including that feature!) I might like a slightly larger space to work in for
some parts, but I understand a need for some limit. I'm happy about the delete
column and row and insert column and row features (even nicer might be to be
able to select a region and then say 'CROP' to extract it and reset it to the
upper left corner, but what is there already works acceptably.)

But it's a collection of small issues that keep me from using it. Partly, the
wiring methods bug me and need 'patching' when I'm done. Partly, I have to
enter text in a box before I can place it, rather than just clicking on a spot
and then typing. Partly, it's the constant redraws and resulting flickering.

Frankly, I think I would use it as a tool if it supported a straight text typing
mode where I could use the arrow keys and space bar and the like to move around
and type in characters where I needed them. If that were present in the program
it would be at least as good as any regular text editor and most likely better
because of the specialized features. But as it is, in some ways it is worse
than having a simple text editor. Enough so that I don't use it. (I have used
your program to paste in a schematic in which I needed to trim off excess left
side spaces and where simple editors don't do that for me.)

But it's close. That's just my opinion and not particularly well thought out as
I figured a sooner opinion might be better than a later one.

Jon

Thanks for your comments. I'll think about the text issue. I don't think it
would be difficult to create a mode where text could be entered directly
anywhere on the screen.

Gary
 
G

Gary Richardson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich Webb said:
Thank you! A great program.


Well, Gary was forthright in announcing that he was initially interested
in creating a Python version of your app. Competition is a Good Thing.

Personally, I find AACircuit easier to use.

One thing that would be a handy addition would be the ability to either
(or both) shift-select or drag-select multiple objects which could then
be moved or rotated as a group.

Well, as I mentioned in a previous post, read the help text. Selected object
can be selected and moved, copied or deleted. It doesn't make sense to
rotate a group of objects.

Thanks for your comments
Gary Richardson
 
G

Gary Richardson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert C Monsen said:
First of all, thanks for the program. It makes it possible to draw
ascii schematics much more quickly than before. Posting schematics to
sci.electronics.basics would be such a pain without it that I wouldn't
do it. (Most people post the output of CAD programs to
alt.binaries.schematics.electronic, but messages there don't get
archived by google, and are much shorter lived than those posted to
sci.electronics.basics)

As far as usability, its pretty good. With respect to Mr Richardson, I
like it better than the python one he posted.

Here are my issues:

1) The arrangement of the scroll bars within the windows is a bit
awkward. When the program starts up on my system, I always have a set
of scroll bars, and then, inside that view, another set of scroll bars
for the components. I'd prefer not to have those outer scroll bars at
all, and have the program simply show the component scroll bar.

I'm afraid I don't understand your problem with the scroll bars. There
should be only one scroll bar - on the component listbox. Could
you send me a screen shot?


Also,
being able to resize the inner pane so I could view all the components
at once would be nice.

Click on the square in the upper-right corner or drag an edge or corner.
More components would be nice; a zener diode picture is the main one I
always seem to be missing. Not a big deal. There is a component editor
in recent versions. I havn't played with it, but if one could add,
save, export new components, that would be ideal.

Well, take a look at the component editor. I tried to make it very easy to
create new component definitions. There is another file of components
(JeroenComponents.txt) created by an early tester ; perhaps you will find
something you like there.
Another thing, it would be really nice to be able to move sections of
the schematic around;

Well, if you had read the help text you would know how to do that. Position
the cursor, draw a bounding box with the left mouse button, click the right
mouse button, select an operation (move, copy, delete), if move or copy
selected, position the object(s) and click the LMB.

I find myself erasing and redoing sections when
I 'paint myself into a corner'. Being able to easily move parts around
with a selection cut and paste scheme would be great. The 'add/delete
lines/columns' scheme isn't as nice as the cut/paste would be.

A final comment is that it would be nice if the program remembered
window location, size, etc.

Again, thanks for the great program.

Regards,
Bob Monsen

Thanks for your comments
Gary Richardson
 
G

Gary Richardson

Jan 1, 1970
0
andy said:
It would be nice to have a linux version. But it does work OK using wine
(a windows api for linux), so not a great problem.

You can download the source files and give it a try. I don't have access to
Linux so I can't guarantee that it will work. I had one report that there
was a problem but I don't know what it is. If you do find a problem please
let me know, I'll be glad to try to correct it.
 
R

Randy Day

Jan 1, 1970
0
Andreas said:
Hi Newsgroup,
I'm the author from AACircuit (Andy's ASCII Circuit) and 3 years ago, I
released the first version of it(formely known as "ASCII-PAINT").

now I read Gary Richardson's posting:
find >it easier to use than Andy's and it has a few more features.

What do YOU think?
Should I invest time for further development? What should I improve?
Is it too difficult to use my program?

I like it. One addition I'd like to see is this:

Widen the component editor screen a bit, and
show the four component views on a plain
background beside the grid. If I make a lot of
changes, I find it a bit hard to track them in
all the different-colored rectangles. As I make
changes in the grid, they would appear on the
plain background.
 
A

Andreas Weber

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jonathan said:
I'm happy about the delete
column and row and insert column and row features (even nicer might be to be
able to select a region and then say 'CROP' to extract it and reset it to the
upper left corner, but what is there already works acceptably.)

Okay, I'll improve the move/crop/paste commands
Partly, I have to
enter text in a box before I can place it, rather than just clicking on a spot
and then typing.
Frankly, I think I would use it as a tool if it supported a straight
text typing mode where I could use the arrow keys and space bar and
the like to move around and type in characters where I needed them.

Just click on "Editor" left of the "Text Box" and click on the paint
Box. A blue cursor appears which you can move with cursors usw.

Which line draw do you use ? The "magline" ?

Thank you Jon
Andy
 
A

Andreas Weber

Jan 1, 1970
0
Randy said:
I like it. One addition I'd like to see is this:

Widen the component editor screen a bit, and
show the four component views on a plain
background beside the grid. If I make a lot of
changes, I find it a bit hard to track them in
all the different-colored rectangles. As I make
changes in the grid, they would appear on the
plain background.

Okay, I'll improve this. Could you send me your symbol-list?
component2.ini if you selected english.
Thanks, Andy
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Okay, I'll improve the move/crop/paste commands


Just click on "Editor" left of the "Text Box" and click on the paint
Box. A blue cursor appears which you can move with cursors usw.

Ah.. Never knew. That might do it, then. I'll try it out some more.
Which line draw do you use ? The "magline" ?

I have been using the other four line types. Didn't like them. The magline
seems much better, I must admit (didn't use that one, either.)

Thanks for the suggestions and I'll see how that goes.

I still wish the display area redraws could be reduced to smaller regions so
they'd not flicker things so much, but the 'editor' is handy and the magline is
better than the other line styles. Thanks for pointing them out to me!

Jon
 
J

John Popelish

Jan 1, 1970
0
Andreas said:
Okay, I'll improve the move/crop/paste commands

A very handy feature is a rubber command that allows you to put a
fence around a section, and move the fence while stretching the
interconnections that pass through the fence without distorting any of
the component symbols that happen to cross the fence (they either move
or stay, depending on whether their grab point is inside or outside
the fence). This allows a quick and sloppy build followed by a clean
up to straighten out and untangle the interconnections. It also makes
adding or deleting components much prettier. This change requires
that building any components includes defining their grab point.
 
R

Randy Day

Jan 1, 1970
0
Andreas Weber wrote:

[snip]
Okay, I'll improve this. Could you send me your symbol-list?
component2.ini if you selected english.
Thanks, Andy

Done. I can't post the file as an attachment, but I
included it below.

Oh, yeah, I found a couple of quirks in the symbol editor;
if I press left-parenthesis '(' the editing rectangle
shifts right and down instead of just right.
When I press '>' the editor moves to the next SET of
symbols in the list. They're not big issues, but they were a
couple of those 'WTF?' moments! ;)


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<R>
/
->|-




</>
<Meter>
|
/ \
(_/_)
\_/
|

<R>
_
/ \
-(_/_)-
\_/


<R>
|
/ \
(_/_)
\_/
|

<R>
_
/ \
-(_/_)-
\_/


</>
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Gary Richardson said:
I'm afraid I don't understand your problem with the scroll bars. There
should be only one scroll bar - on the component listbox. Could
you send me a screen shot?


Also,

Click on the square in the upper-right corner or drag an edge or corner.


Well, take a look at the component editor. I tried to make it very easy to
create new component definitions. There is another file of components
(JeroenComponents.txt) created by an early tester ; perhaps you will find
something you like there.


Well, if you had read the help text you would know how to do that. Position
the cursor, draw a bounding box with the left mouse button, click the right
mouse button, select an operation (move, copy, delete), if move or copy
selected, position the object(s) and click the LMB.

I find myself erasing and redoing sections when

Thanks for your comments
Gary Richardson

Unless I've completely lost the plot, I think Bob was replying to
Andreas, not to you!
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Andreas Weber said:
Hi Newsgroup,
I'm the author from AACircuit (Andy's ASCII Circuit) and 3 years ago, I
released the first version of it(formely known as "ASCII-PAINT").

now I read Gary Richardson's posting:
find >it easier to use than Andy's and it has a few more features.

What do YOU think?
Should I invest time for further development? What should I improve?
Is it too difficult to use my program?

Best regards, Andy

Although I recognise the advantages of ASCII, I use it very
infrequently. I prefer to draw proper schematics in CircuitMaker and
post them to a web page and/or alt.binaries.schematics.electronic.On
those occasions when I do try my hand, I've found it extremely
usaeful. No way would I go back to 'rolling my own'!

Some improvements might be
- A larger window
- Easier to move sections around
- Eliminate a tendency to get the '+' (join?) symbol when it's not
wanted. This may be down to my misuse though! Seems to arise after
I've drawn a couple of line section, vertical and horizontal. I'd
expect whatever is selected in the component list on the right to be
the 'current' element, but right now I have 'resistor' highlighted yet
the cursor is trying to sprinkle '+' elements around!

I see I've been using 1.23. Is 1.25 the latest?

I've used Gary's program even less so can't make a truly fair
comparison.
 
A

Andreas Weber

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jonathan said:
I still wish the display area redraws could be reduced to smaller regions so
they'd not flicker things so much, but the 'editor' is handy and the magline is
better than the other line styles. Thanks for pointing them out to me!

Hi Jonathan,
I must admit, that I have still a redraw problem but I'll fix that soon.
With which action does this happen most strongly? Do you display the grid ?
Best regards Andy
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi Jonathan,
I must admit, that I have still a redraw problem but I'll fix that soon.
With which action does this happen most strongly? Do you display the grid ?

No, I don't display the grid very often. I played with it, though. But what I
meant is that it's 'really bad' when I'm inserting or deleting lines or rows
with those red/green things.

By the way, I just took two hours to write a short C routine to convert LTSpice
schematics in .ASC files into ASCII text schematics. Works kind of well, for
such short effort. Here's an example I just extracted using the new program:


Vcc
| Vcc
| |
| Vcc |
- | |
--- V1 | /
- | \ R2
--- / /
| \ R3 \
| / |
gnd \ |
| +-----Vc
| |
C1 || | |
,-------||---|-------------, |
| || | | /
| | R6 | |/c
| +-----/\/\----+---|
/-\ | |>e
~ V2 | \
\-/ | |
| | C3 || +-------,
| +-----------||-------+ |
| | || | |
| / / /
gnd \ R4 \ R1 \ R5
/ / /
\ \ \
| | |
| | |
| | |
gnd gnd |
---
---
| C2
|
|
|
gnd

It's a bootstrapped BJT amp. I don't have the values on there yet, though I do
parse them and can easily put them there. I just want to add some code to deal
with the expressions that are allowed in LTSpice and automatically add them as
footnotes, as they take up a lot of room when placed directly on the schematic
adjacent to the part.

The method uses a GCD on all the (x,y) wiring points in the schematic to find
the greatest common denominator and then divides the values to get integer
character positions. I also gather up the min and max values in order to center
onto a text page okay and allow room to add the legends. Symbols are, for now,
recognized and hard-coded in the code -- I don't go to the .ASY files to examine
how they are actually drawn (I imagine it would be too complex to do that well.)
Wiring is handled by using a bitmap for each character that includes a dotted
connection, left, right, top, and bottom short-walls, and a special indicator
for overridden characters I place. This map then correctly judges the right
character to place. (You can see in the above that the wire from C1 going to
the Q1 base does not DOT to the wire it crosses.)

Needs more work, but it's a start to prove that the concept is workable.

Jon
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Jan 1, 1970
0
By the way, I just took two hours to write a short C routine to convert LTSpice
schematics in .ASC files into ASCII text schematics. Works kind of well, for
such short effort. Here's an example I just extracted using the new program:


Vcc
| Vcc
| |
| Vcc |
- | |
--- V1 | /
- | \ R2
--- / /
| \ R3 \
| / |
gnd \ |
| +-----Vc
| |
C1 || | |
,-------||---|-------------, |
| || | | /
| | R6 | |/c
| +-----/\/\----+---|
/-\ | |>e
~ V2 | \
\-/ | |
| | C3 || +-------,
| +-----------||-------+ |
| | || | |
| / / /
gnd \ R4 \ R1 \ R5
/ / /
\ \ \
| | |
| | |
| | |
gnd gnd |
---
---
| C2
|
|
|
gnd
Needs more work, but it's a start to prove that the concept is workable.

Well done! Hope you'll pursue to completion and publication!

Meanwhile, could you post the SWCADIII schematic original, or a bitmap
screenshot please?
 
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