# Audiophile cappacitor replacement

S

#### Sofie

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eric:
so I can sell you very expensive oxygen free, biradially wound copper
speaker wires and interconnect cables with gold connectors...about $10 per foot...... and while you are at it you should consider a$1500 or more,
power line conditioner so that your equipment gets cleaned up power so it
can produce much "improved" sound.
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
- - - - - - - - -

A

#### Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
What the Hell is a "esoteric value"? How does one measure "esoteric
values"? Is there a "esoteric value" meter?

Oh dear ! Clearly, English is your native language, but it would seem
that
there are some words that you just haven't come across ... Do they not
have
dictionaries wherever you are ? I actually agree with most of what you
have
said, and I never implied that I believed in golden ears, or anything
else
in the same vein. All I said, that seems to have created the rather
vitriolic response from Graham, was that I genuinely believed that there
were measurable differences in the performance of "audio grade" caps over
bog standard types, and that there were people out there who had made
those
tests. The reference to "esoteric values" is a tongue in cheek allusion
to
the 'snake oil experts' who will present complex-sounding measurements
that
are actually bollocks. For your further education ...

es·o·ter·ic /??s?'t?r?k/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[es-uh-ter-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-adjective 1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have
special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric
allusions.
2. belonging to the select few.
3. private; secret; confidential.
4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be
revealed
only to the initiates of a group: the esoteric doctrines of Pythagoras.

----------------------

[Origin: 1645-55; < Gk esoterikós inner, equiv. to ester(os) inner
+ -ikos -ic]

-Related forms

-Synonyms 1. abstruse, arcane, cryptic, enigmatic.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House,
Inc.
2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source es·o·ter·ic
(es'?-ter'ik)
Pronunciation Key
1..
1.. Intended for or understood by only a particular group: an
esoteric cult. See Synonyms at mysterious.
2.. Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted
number
of people.
3.. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
4.. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.
2..
1.. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
2.. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.

[Greek esoterikos, from esotero, comparative of eso, within; see en
in
Indo-European roots.]

English Language, Fourth Edition
WordNet - Cite This Source esoteric

confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle;
"a
compilation of esoteric philosophical theories" [ant: exoteric]

Arfa d;~}

Ok, you have a dictionary definition of esoteric. You have so called
experts telling
you what esoteric is. What are there qualifications?
I don't recall seeing any engineering school classes on esoteric.
What makes these guys so much smarter than everyone else?
And why is so much of the stuff Voodoo science it seems?
And VERY costly to boot?

Like i said before, test caps with a standard, quantifiable test of
some sort. and put the charts with it to show in black and what
what the differences are. And under what conditions, loads and voltage
ratings.
Anybody can tell or sell you anything. that does
not make it true or better. There are still people selling magnets
that go on automotive fuel lines that claim give you
better mileage. After all these years! PT Barnum was right.

I am not against better quality components of any nature.
But i want to see the proof. Being in the service industry for
years, i am all for the best bang for the buck. These days its
a matter of survival in the service industry. In the quest for
that, i have been on both the good and bad end of component
sourcing. Sometimes you just need to find out for yourself.

Bob
Hey Bob

You're missing the point, old boy. " Esoteric " is what *defines* these
people as snake oil experts. We all know that the basic parameters for
measurement of a capacitor are primarily its capacitance and its ESR, and
secondarily, its leakage and inherent inductance. Its the nonsense such as
the " back-peddling quantum electron mobility count factor " and the "
sliding scalar blisticon enhancement constant " ( and no, neither of these
are real ) which are the sorts of 'esoteric' measurements that I am
referring to. The snake oil 'experts' talk amongst themselves in their
private clubs, as though such measurements are real, and just not understood
by what they consider to be the masses. Read the dictionary definition of
the word again, and see that I am just using it to take the piss, not to
make any *real* point ...

Arfa

B

#### BOB Urz

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
What the Hell is a "esoteric value"? How does one measure "esoteric
values"? Is there a "esoteric value" meter?

Oh dear ! Clearly, English is your native language, but it would seem
that
there are some words that you just haven't come across ... Do they not
have
dictionaries wherever you are ? I actually agree with most of what you
have
said, and I never implied that I believed in golden ears, or anything
else
in the same vein. All I said, that seems to have created the rather
vitriolic response from Graham, was that I genuinely believed that there
were measurable differences in the performance of "audio grade" caps over
bog standard types, and that there were people out there who had made
those
tests. The reference to "esoteric values" is a tongue in cheek allusion
to
the 'snake oil experts' who will present complex-sounding measurements
that
are actually bollocks. For your further education ...

es·o·ter·ic /??s?'t?r?k/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[es-uh-ter-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-adjective 1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have
special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric
allusions.
2. belonging to the select few.
3. private; secret; confidential.
4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be
revealed
only to the initiates of a group: the esoteric doctrines of Pythagoras.

----------------------

[Origin: 1645-55; < Gk esoterikós inner, equiv. to ester(os) inner
+ -ikos -ic]

-Related forms

-Synonyms 1. abstruse, arcane, cryptic, enigmatic.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House,
Inc.
2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source es·o·ter·ic
(es'?-ter'ik)
Pronunciation Key
1..
1.. Intended for or understood by only a particular group: an
esoteric cult. See Synonyms at mysterious.
2.. Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted
number
of people.
3.. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
4.. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.
2..
1.. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
2.. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.

[Greek esoterikos, from esotero, comparative of eso, within; see en
in
Indo-European roots.]

English Language, Fourth Edition
WordNet - Cite This Source esoteric

confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle;
"a
compilation of esoteric philosophical theories" [ant: exoteric]

Arfa d;~}

Ok, you have a dictionary definition of esoteric. You have so called
experts telling
you what esoteric is. What are there qualifications?
I don't recall seeing any engineering school classes on esoteric.
What makes these guys so much smarter than everyone else?
And why is so much of the stuff Voodoo science it seems?
And VERY costly to boot?

Like i said before, test caps with a standard, quantifiable test of
some sort. and put the charts with it to show in black and what
what the differences are. And under what conditions, loads and voltage
ratings.
Anybody can tell or sell you anything. that does
not make it true or better. There are still people selling magnets
that go on automotive fuel lines that claim give you
better mileage. After all these years! PT Barnum was right.

I am not against better quality components of any nature.
But i want to see the proof. Being in the service industry for
years, i am all for the best bang for the buck. These days its
a matter of survival in the service industry. In the quest for
that, i have been on both the good and bad end of component
sourcing. Sometimes you just need to find out for yourself.

Bob
Hey Bob

You're missing the point, old boy. " Esoteric " is what *defines* these
people as snake oil experts. We all know that the basic parameters for
measurement of a capacitor are primarily its capacitance and its ESR, and
secondarily, its leakage and inherent inductance. Its the nonsense such as
the " back-peddling quantum electron mobility count factor " and the "
sliding scalar blisticon enhancement constant " ( and no, neither of these
are real ) which are the sorts of 'esoteric' measurements that I am
referring to. The snake oil 'experts' talk amongst themselves in their
private clubs, as though such measurements are real, and just not understood
by what they consider to be the masses. Read the dictionary definition of
the word again, and see that I am just using it to take the piss, not to
make any *real* point ...

Arfa

Ok, i guess i have been sniffing too many solder fumes this week.

Bob

L

#### Leonard Caillouet

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sophie, haven't you been paying attention? Oxygen free wire is passe. All
good audiophiles know that it makes no difference whether you use OF copper
or not, since the best sound comes from bare copper oxidized on the surface
by the urine of virgin ferrets that have been raised listening to Bach's
Tocata and Fuge in D minor. Of course, some say that Dr. Pepper works as
well. The oxide slows the conduction to allow the slower electrons to
arrive in phase with the ones that would otherwise travel faster.

Leonard

H

#### Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sophie, haven't you been paying attention? Oxygen free wire is passe.
All good audiophiles know that it makes no difference whether you use OF
copper or not, since the best sound comes from bare copper oxidized on the
surface by the urine of virgin ferrets that have been raised listening to
Bach's Tocata and Fuge in D minor. Of course, some say that Dr. Pepper
works as well. The oxide slows the conduction to allow the slower
electrons to arrive in phase with the ones that would otherwise travel
faster.

Actually all you need to do is store it under a titanium pyramid between one
full moon and the next.

--

A

#### Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
BOB Urz said:
Arfa said:
What the Hell is a "esoteric value"? How does one measure "esoteric
values"? Is there a "esoteric value" meter?

Oh dear ! Clearly, English is your native language, but it would seem
that
there are some words that you just haven't come across ... Do they not
have
dictionaries wherever you are ? I actually agree with most of what you
have
said, and I never implied that I believed in golden ears, or anything
else
in the same vein. All I said, that seems to have created the rather
vitriolic response from Graham, was that I genuinely believed that
there
were measurable differences in the performance of "audio grade" caps
over
bog standard types, and that there were people out there who had made
those
tests. The reference to "esoteric values" is a tongue in cheek
allusion
to
the 'snake oil experts' who will present complex-sounding measurements
that
are actually bollocks. For your further education ...

es·o·ter·ic /??s?'t?r?k/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[es-uh-ter-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-adjective 1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have
special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric
allusions.
2. belonging to the select few.
3. private; secret; confidential.
4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be
revealed
only to the initiates of a group: the esoteric doctrines of
Pythagoras.

----------------------

[Origin: 1645-55; < Gk esoterikós inner, equiv. to ester(os) inner
+ -ikos -ic]

-Related forms

-Synonyms 1. abstruse, arcane, cryptic, enigmatic.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House,
Inc.
2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source es·o·ter·ic
(es'?-ter'ik)
Pronunciation Key
1..
1.. Intended for or understood by only a particular group:
an
esoteric cult. See Synonyms at mysterious.
2.. Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted
number
of people.
3.. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
4.. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.
2..
1.. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
2.. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.

[Greek esoterikos, from esotero, comparative of eso, within; see
en
in
Indo-European roots.]

the
English Language, Fourth Edition
WordNet - Cite This Source esoteric

confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner
circle;
"a
compilation of esoteric philosophical theories" [ant: exoteric]

Arfa d;~}

Ok, you have a dictionary definition of esoteric. You have so called
experts telling
you what esoteric is. What are there qualifications?
I don't recall seeing any engineering school classes on esoteric.
What makes these guys so much smarter than everyone else?
And why is so much of the stuff Voodoo science it seems?
And VERY costly to boot?

Like i said before, test caps with a standard, quantifiable test of
some sort. and put the charts with it to show in black and what
what the differences are. And under what conditions, loads and voltage
ratings.
Anybody can tell or sell you anything. that does
not make it true or better. There are still people selling magnets
that go on automotive fuel lines that claim give you
better mileage. After all these years! PT Barnum was right.

I am not against better quality components of any nature.
But i want to see the proof. Being in the service industry for
years, i am all for the best bang for the buck. These days its
a matter of survival in the service industry. In the quest for
that, i have been on both the good and bad end of component
sourcing. Sometimes you just need to find out for yourself.

Bob
Hey Bob

You're missing the point, old boy. " Esoteric " is what *defines* these
people as snake oil experts. We all know that the basic parameters for
measurement of a capacitor are primarily its capacitance and its ESR, and
secondarily, its leakage and inherent inductance. Its the nonsense such
as
the " back-peddling quantum electron mobility count factor " and the "
sliding scalar blisticon enhancement constant " ( and no, neither of
these
are real ) which are the sorts of 'esoteric' measurements that I am
referring to. The snake oil 'experts' talk amongst themselves in their
private clubs, as though such measurements are real, and just not
understood
by what they consider to be the masses. Read the dictionary definition of
the word again, and see that I am just using it to take the piss, not to
make any *real* point ...

Arfa

Ok, i guess i have been sniffing too many solder fumes this week.

Bob

Ha !! Don't start me on solder fumes, Bob ! I've written magazine articles
on that one ... d;~}

Arfa

E

#### Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
All I said, that seems to have created the rather
vitriolic response from Graham, was that I genuinely believed that there
were measurable differences in the performance of "audio grade" caps over
bog standard types, and that there were people out there who had made those
tests.

You have to be joking !

It's done on the basis of the 'audiophool religion'.

It is worth pointing out that certain ceramic dielectrics have known non-linearities
and these should be avoided in audio circuits and electrolytic caps have to be used
intelligently with regard to their limitations.

Graham

E

#### Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
GregS said:
One parameter that might be considered esoteric, is delectric absorbtion.
This will affect capacitance, but can be measured out. it can
affect DC circuits, or ac circuits with a dc bias. Better caps have low DA.
Electrolytics are really bad in this respect. DA also causes frequency
dependant cap values.

DA hasn't been shown to be non-linear though and it's a very small effect with most caps.

With electrolytics used as coupling caps you can effectively avoid the issue by using large
values.

Graham

A

#### Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
You have to be joking !

It's done on the basis of the 'audiophool religion'.

It is worth pointing out that certain ceramic dielectrics have known
non-linearities
and these should be avoided in audio circuits and electrolytic caps have
to be used
intelligently with regard to their limitations.

Graham

So isn't that just what I am saying ? I really don't know quite where you
are coming from on this one Graham. You seem to be delibarately trying to
twist what I have clearly been saying, and trying to make me out to look
like some gullible amateur. And no, I am not joking. Are you honestly saying
that you believe there are no measurable differences in ANY parameters
between a mass produced tupp'ny cap, and a precision-made type specifically
made for a purpose ? Do you think that the military are fools for specifying
"military grade" components over bog standards ? Are the avionics industry
gullible prats for specifying the highest quality components in airborne
equipment ? No, of course they're not, and neither are the manufacturers of
high grade audio equipment over mass producers like Sony and company.

So lets get it clear once and for all. ALL I am saying is that I believe
that there ARE measurable differences between different quality examples of
what are fundamentally the same animal. I believe this, because I have been
told that it's so by people that I personally consider to be reputable
experts in their field, and by 40 years worth of reading electronics
technical publications. If a piece of equipment has been designed to produce
minimum distortion with a component of a particular value and specification,
then the more accurately that component approaches that specification, the
closer the designer will come to his goal. It is a fact of life that
designers' specifications are compromised by their companies' accounts and
marketing departments, and lower grade components will be substituted to
meet the demands of these people. Of course, this will make little
alteration to the overall performance, and I doubt that most people would be
able to hear the minuscule difference, but that doesn't mean that it isn't
actually there, and couldn't be removed by putting in a component with a
better specification, which is where the likes of Jensen come in.

I wouldn't dispute for one minute that changes to the interstage coupling
electrolytics in a semiconductor amp, would result in any kind of
improvement that anyone could hear, and I doubt that a change to the
polyester or whatever interstage couplers in a valve amp would either, but
here, I would concede that with the high impedances involved, accuracy of
value and dielectric leakages *might* just make enough of a difference to
hear in SOME circumstances, particularly to someone who has a 'musical
ear' - and no, I'm not going to start getting into that one ...

Yes, there are a lot of 'audiophools' out there who are prepared to be
misled by the snake oil merchants, but I really don't think that you should
close your mind to the possibility that there are others out there besides
yourself, who do not fall into that category. Just because you believe that
you can't hear any difference so there mustn't be one, does not necessarily
make it so, and by closing your mind to it, you make yourself just as bad as
the others who are equally convinced the other way.

All I have stated is a belief that, like in every other walk of life, there
are differences in component quality that have a measurable impact on their
parameters. It's a BELIEF based on the reasons I have given. If you can show
me that a standards lab or whatever, have done tests, and have published
results that refute that there IS any difference, then I will happily accept
that. I really don't care whether any such differences that there MAY be,
result in anything that anyone believes they can hear. This is not the point
at issue, and hasn't been since we all told the OP that he would be pissing
in the wind by bothering to replace his caps.

Arfa

E

#### Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
So isn't that just what I am saying ?

No. You don't appear to be aware of what the audiophools are claiming.

Besides, only a completely incompetent beginner would use Hi and medium K
ceramic dielectrics in audio signal circuits.

I really don't know quite where you
are coming from on this one Graham. You seem to be delibarately trying to
twist what I have clearly been saying, and trying to make me out to look
like some gullible amateur. And no, I am not joking. Are you honestly saying
that you believe there are no measurable differences in ANY parameters
between a mass produced tupp'ny cap, and a precision-made type specifically

Precision makes no difference at all.

Do you think that the military are fools for specifying
"military grade" components over bog standards ?

For audio ? Yes. COMPLETELY.

And the audiophool stuff isn't even 'MIL spec' anyway.

Are the avionics industry
gullible prats for specifying the highest quality components in airborne
equipment ? No, of course they're not, and neither are the manufacturers of
high grade audio equipment over mass producers like Sony and company.

Their only interest is in aspects such as temperature range and long-term
failure rate.

More recently, COTS ( commercial off the shelf ) products have become popular
for aerospace often with *better* performance, which shows the lie about Mil
spec.

So lets get it clear once and for all. ALL I am saying is that I believe
that there ARE measurable differences between different quality examples of
what are fundamentally the same animal.

Quality ? Next to none and certainly nothing audible.

I believe this, because I have been
told that it's so by people that I personally consider to be reputable
experts in their field, and by 40 years worth of reading electronics
technical publications.

I think you're misunderstanding what you've read. I know of no audio
professional who believes in capacitor substitution where the orignal was
adequately specified. Certainly not for reasons of audibility.

If a piece of equipment has been designed to produce
minimum distortion with a component of a particular value and specification,
then the more accurately that component approaches that specification, the
closer the designer will come to his goal.

Show me a capacitor that distorts will you ? ( other than those I've mentioned

< snip remainder of rant >

Graham

E

#### Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
I wouldn't dispute for one minute that changes to the interstage coupling
electrolytics in a semiconductor amp, would result in any kind of
improvement that anyone could hear

Are you saying that electrolytics are or aren't audible ? I can't figure that
one.

Graham

A

#### Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
Are you saying that electrolytics are or aren't audible ? I can't figure
that
one.

Graham

Think what you like pal, I've grown utterly tired now of this thread, and

Arfa

E

#### Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
Think what you like pal, I've grown utterly tired now of this thread, and

Show me a capacitor ( other than those I've mentioned ) that distorts will you !

You sound very gullible to me.

Graham

A

#### Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
Show me a capacitor ( other than those I've mentioned ) that distorts will
you !

You sound very gullible to me.

Graham
Please don't descend into trying to trade insults. As I said, believe what
you like.

Arfa

E

#### Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
Please don't descend into trying to trade insults. As I said, believe what
you like.

It's not a question of believing. That's what the audiophools do.

I've actually gone to the trouble of measuring ! With Audio Precision test gear
that has a generator residual THD of 0.0007% ( -103dB ).

Not a single film capacitor of any type I've checked has any distortion
whatever. Nor would I expect any from first principles.

What's your experience in the matter ?

Graham

A

#### Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
It's not a question of believing. That's what the audiophools do.

I've actually gone to the trouble of measuring ! With Audio Precision test
gear
that has a generator residual THD of 0.0007% ( -103dB ).

Not a single film capacitor of any type I've checked has any distortion
whatever. Nor would I expect any from first principles.

What's your experience in the matter ?

Graham

Did I actually say that any capacitor per se had distortion ? The problem is
that you are either not listening to what I am saying or deliberately
misconstruing it in order to continue with this senseless lambasting.

Clearly there must be differences between different constructions of caps
from different manufacturers, otherwise, there wouldn't be different types
with the same value and voltage rating, and different price tags. You
wouldn't for instance use a cheapo cap intended for decoupling purposes, as
the timing element in an oscillator. If you wanted it to last, you wouldn't
use a bog standard cheapo electrolytic in a switch mode power supply. But
there's my point. Manufacturers do - not because the designer wanted them
to, but because cost dictated it. This results in inferior performance of
the power supply over what the designer initially intended, and ultimate
failure.

You may also be getting confused over what I am treating as 'distortion'. I
am including anything that not only makes a piece of equipment deviate from
the ideal, but also from what the designer intended. If *any* substituted
component on cost grounds causes any deviation from what the designer
originally measured on his development model with the components he used and
specified, then this under my definition, is distortion. It need not
necessarily result in mishaping of the output waveform in any way that would
normally be considered as distortion, which may or may not be audible, but
could include unwanted phase shifts or gain non-linearities.

You're right. I don't spend my time measuring caps with high precision
generators - it's not my job. I leave such things to people like you, and
it. That makes me neither gullible, nor any kind of 'phool' - audio or
otherwise. Enough time has now been wasted on this. I have made my position
quite clear in as many different ways as I know how, and since no one else
has joined in with you to have a pop at me, I can only assume that they
understand what I am saying, and don't disagree strongly enough to find it
worth bothering. Considering some of the stuff you have come back with, I
think you have a cheek snipping " rest of rant ". I associate ranting with
the nonsense that goes on over on uk rec audio with this sort of thing.
Perhaps you should concentrate your efforts over there, where you must feel
much more at home ...

Arfa

E

#### Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
Did I actually say that any capacitor per se had distortion ?

You suggested so.

The problem is
that you are either not listening to what I am saying or deliberately
misconstruing it in order to continue with this senseless lambasting.

Clearly there must be differences between different constructions of caps
from different manufacturers, otherwise, there wouldn't be different types
with the same value and voltage rating, and different price tags.

What's that got to do with it ?

The only real thing of concern is the dielectric and whether the plates are
metallised or foil ( for high current applications ) with a resultant effect on
ESR.

Some winding techniques reduce parasitic inductance but this isn't an issue at
audio frequencies.

You
wouldn't for instance use a cheapo cap intended for decoupling purposes, as
the timing element in an oscillator.

Define 'cheapo cap'. You might get a shock about the prices I pay for parts for
products in volume manufacture btw !

If you wanted it to last, you wouldn't
use a bog standard cheapo electrolytic in a switch mode power supply. But
there's my point.

Define 'cheapo cap again ! SMPSs require low ESR caps in the output filters -
it's nothing to do with being cheap or not. That's what's *needed*.

Manufacturers do - not because the designer wanted them
to, but because cost dictated it. This results in inferior performance of
the power supply over what the designer initially intended, and ultimate
failure.

Inferior ? If parts with the correct specs are used the only concern between
makes in this application is usually lifetime.

You may also be getting confused over what I am treating as 'distortion'. I
am including anything that not only makes a piece of equipment deviate from
the ideal, but also from what the designer intended. If *any* substituted
component on cost grounds causes any deviation from what the designer
originally measured on his development model with the components he used and
specified, then this under my definition, is distortion. It need not
necessarily result in mishaping of the output waveform in any way that would
normally be considered as distortion, which may or may not be audible, but
could include unwanted phase shifts or gain non-linearities.

Phase shifts are related to the *value* of a capacitor. All have a tolerance on
them regardless of price.

WTF is a 'gain non-linearity' in your book btw ? Why would a capacitor cause it
?

Graham

A

#### Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
You suggested so.

What's that got to do with it ?

If you *really can't see, then you must be dumber than you appear.
The only real thing of concern is the dielectric and whether the plates
are
metallised or foil ( for high current applications ) with a resultant
effect on
ESR.

Some winding techniques reduce parasitic inductance but this isn't an
issue at
audio frequencies.

Define 'cheapo cap'. You might get a shock about the prices I pay for
parts for
products in volume manufacture btw !

Oh please ! Are you going out of your way to be obtuse ? Do you *really*
think that the word 'cheapo' refers just to price ? Where have you been all
of your life ? Head down over a precision signal generator with point 36
noughts seven THD perhaps ?
Define 'cheapo cap again ! SMPSs require low ESR caps in the output
filters -
it's nothing to do with being cheap or not. That's what's *needed*.
But it is !! A good grade high temperature low ESR electrolytic costs more
than a cheapo ( see above ) bog standard electrolytic. Nobody, least of all
me, would dispute that a low ESR cap is NEEDED, but trust me, I repair
stacks of these things every week - it is not what you actually FIND in
them. If manufacturers can buy good quality low ESR caps for the same price
as the poor quality crap that they do fit, why wouldn't they ? How do the
manufacturers of low quality electrolytics stay in business when according
to you, everyone can buy a superior product for the same money ?
Inferior ? If parts with the correct specs are used the only concern
between
makes in this application is usually lifetime.

Of the correct NOMINAL specs. Anyway, if all parts are as good as each
other, irrespective of price, as you seem to be implying, why is lifetime
suddenly an issue ?
Phase shifts are related to the *value* of a capacitor. All have a
tolerance on
them regardless of price.
They do, but some have a tighter tolerance spec than others, and you pay
more for that. A 1% cap is going to bring a design closer in performance to
what the designer intended, than a 20% one might, if at the edge of its
spread. The cumulative effect of wide tolerance components - not just caps -
in an item, may cause its performance to deviate quite substantially from
that which the designer intended, but never-the-less keep its performance
within what the manufacturer's marketing people consider acceptable for the
product. No matter what you say or believe, the market is so competitive
that equipment is built down to a price, and that sometimes includes using
inferior quality components.
WTF is a 'gain non-linearity' in your book btw ? Why would a capacitor
cause it
?
Language, language. I haven't sworn at you now, have I, no matter how much
I've wanted to ...
The designer of an amp will want it to have a flat gain across its whole
intended bandwidth. Various factors such as interstage coupling design, will
try to influence this, and the designer will try to mitigate it with his
choice of component values and types. When you see the gain / bandwith curve
for any amplifier plotted, it is never a totally smooth line. It's a fact of
life. Where tone control networks are fitted, these are highly dependant on
the values of capacitor fitted, to produce a flat characteristic at the
control midpoint. Any deviation from the designer's calculated values, will
result in unintended lifts or drops in the curve at particular frequencies.

Anyway, I don't want to discuss it any more. I actually have a life. If it
makes you happy,
you're right. I'm wrong. The whole of my working life has been for nothing.
Clearly I've understood nothing of electronics over the whole 40 years I've
been involved with it. My english must also be really poor, since you have
such trouble understanding it. I am a twat for having beliefs, no matter how
well founded they might be, and any advice I have ever given to anyone,
should be disregarded and treated as wrong. Oh how I wish that I had your
vast intellect, and eloquent manner. I could have been such a success ...

OK now ?

Arfa

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