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Audiophile cappacitor replacement

E

Eric

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,



I have a question about the audiophile capacitor replacement. In normal
production boards, signal coupling capacitor normally using polar
electrolytic capacitors. In some higher grade models, bi-polar electrolytic
capacitors will be introduced. Some people will upgrade it will audio grade
capacitors such as oil caps, polypropylene caps. In my audio device, the
coupling caps are 100uF polar electrolytic caps. I am looking for Jensen
oil caps and it will be very expensive and the size is very big. Someone
suggests me I can replace with 20uF oil caps instead of huge big one. If it
is right, is there any rule of thumb to do the exchange calculation or any
theory behind the idea. It seems the capacitor values will be 5 times lower
than the original value and I am worry about the filter DC function. Thanks
a lot for any input for the information.
 
B

b

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eric ha escrito:
Hi,



I have a question about the audiophile capacitor replacement. In normal
production boards, signal coupling capacitor normally using polar
electrolytic capacitors. In some higher grade models, bi-polar electrolytic
capacitors will be introduced. Some people will upgrade it will audio grade
capacitors such as oil caps, polypropylene caps. In my audio device, the
coupling caps are 100uF polar electrolytic caps. I am looking for Jensen
oil caps and it will be very expensive and the size is very big. Someone
suggests me I can replace with 20uF oil caps instead of huge big one.

This all seems rather unscientific to me, with more than a whiff of
snake oil (dunno about capacitor oil!)
- since when can you reduce the capacitance to a fifth of the value of
the original and expect good perfomance?
What utter crap. You'd end up with a result as if the amp had aged 20
years and the caps had lost their capacitance. Use always the same
value as the original: 100uF, with same or slightly greater voltage
rating.

Unless there is a fault with the appliance, (often evidenced by hum,
motor boating or excessive hiss on the output) I'd say don't mess about
changing caps for the sake of it. You won't hear any perceptible
difference. There are people out there making a living by spreading
this nonsense about to the non-technical.

-B.
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
b said:
Eric ha escrito:


This all seems rather unscientific to me, with more than a whiff of
snake oil (dunno about capacitor oil!)
- since when can you reduce the capacitance to a fifth of the value of
the original and expect good perfomance?
What utter crap. You'd end up with a result as if the amp had aged 20
years and the caps had lost their capacitance. Use always the same
value as the original: 100uF, with same or slightly greater voltage
rating.

Unless there is a fault with the appliance, (often evidenced by hum,
motor boating or excessive hiss on the output) I'd say don't mess about
changing caps for the sake of it. You won't hear any perceptible
difference. There are people out there making a living by spreading
this nonsense about to the non-technical.

-B.
Jensen copper foil / oiled paper caps as upgrade replacements, are usually
more associated with the lower values that you tend to find as coupling caps
in valve amplifiers. They are physically bigger than the bog standard
polyesters that you would normally find fitted, and are very expensive.
There is, however, a measurable improvement to be had by fitting them, but I
would have to question if the cost was warranted.

Their electrolytic caps are, IIRC, all high voltage types for valve amp
power supplies, so not appropriate for interstage coupling on semiconductor
amps. As they are high voltage caps, their physical size will be
correspondingly larger, so the only way to get the size back down, would be
to reduce the value. I agree with the other poster, that this would be a bad
move for the performance of the amp, and far from giving a performance
improvement, would likely result in a detrimental effect.

There may be a measurable difference to be had, by replacing conventional
interstage coupling electros with bipolar types, which are readily
available, and no bigger than conventional types, but I doubt that you would
be able to notice the difference in a real-world music playing situation.
Again, I would agree with the other poster that if it ain't broke, don't try
to fix it.If you want to know more about the subject, you could try the
people over on uk.rec.audio. I know for sure that there are a couple of
people there who have fitted Jensen caps to amps, and may be better able to
advise you.

Arfa
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
Jensen copper foil / oiled paper caps as upgrade replacements, are usually
more associated with the lower values that you tend to find as coupling caps
in valve amplifiers. They are physically bigger than the bog standard
polyesters that you would normally find fitted, and are very expensive.
There is, however, a measurable improvement to be had by fitting them

What measureable improvement ?

Have you measured it ?

Graham
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
What measureable improvement ?

Have you measured it ?

Graham
Hi Graham

I haven't personally measured any changes, but I have been assured by more
than one genuine expert in the field, that an improvement in the dynamic
response and overall flatness of the response curve of a high end - and
we're talking 1200 quid monoblocks here - *is* both audible and measurable.
I know what you're saying - or implying at least - and under normal
circumstances, having been in this business for 35 years and having seen and
looked into virtually every snake oil claim that there is out there, I too
would be skeptical. However, knowing the credentials of the people who have
made these claims, I have no reason to doubt them. I don't know whether you
have ever been over on uk rec audio, but there are some furious debates that
get going over claims about audible differences on cables, and it always
comes down to measurable characteristics in the end, so that is why I am
prepared to accept what has been said with regard to these caps, in this
situation, by these people.

I genuinely believe that measurements with the appropriate equipment *have*
been made, and a difference *has* been seen. At the end of the day, Jensen
are a reputable company, and have been around for a very long time selling
very high quality caps. Whilst I appreciate that this is not a
recommendation for any claims per se, by the same token, in my experience,
snake oil sellers tend not to last too long, before their claims are
discredited ...

Be assured that unless I was pretty confident of what I was saying, I
wouldn't actually say it on here, and potentially mislead someone that may
be of lesser ability or experience than me. However, all of this has no
relevance to the OP's original question, which I answered with what I
believe to be an honest opinion, which is that attempting to replace
electrolytic interstage coupling caps, with bipolars, will not result in any
audible improvement to his equipment.

Arfa
 
G

GregS

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eric ha escrito:


This all seems rather unscientific to me, with more than a whiff of
snake oil (dunno about capacitor oil!)
- since when can you reduce the capacitance to a fifth of the value of
the original and expect good perfomance?
What utter crap. You'd end up with a result as if the amp had aged 20
years and the caps had lost their capacitance. Use always the same
value as the original: 100uF, with same or slightly greater voltage
rating.

Well 5 of them will work. Some people replace passive speaker
crossover components, but you have to watch ESR which can change requirments.
I have seen certain types of electrolytics dry up and cause severe frequency
response errors in coupling caps.

greg
 
Eric said:
I have a question about the audiophile capacitor replacement. In normal
production boards, signal coupling capacitor normally using polar
electrolytic capacitors. In some higher grade models, bi-polar electrolytic
capacitors will be introduced. Some people will upgrade it will audio grade
capacitors such as oil caps, polypropylene caps. In my audio device, the
coupling caps are 100uF polar electrolytic caps. I am looking for Jensen
oil caps and it will be very expensive and the size is very big. Someone
suggests me I can replace with 20uF oil caps instead of huge big one. If it
is right, is there any rule of thumb to do the exchange calculation or any
theory behind the idea. It seems the capacitor values will be 5 times lower
than the original value and I am worry about the filter DC function. Thanks
a lot for any input for the information.

In general, replacing coupling caps with smaller values would create
high-pass filters, so you will have less bass. Are you sure they really
are 100u?
 
I find some of this hard to believe. I guess a little bit of knowledge
really is dangerous.

If anyone around here other than me knows how to design a transistor
amplifier stage, they know the cap is critical to some extent. You
cannot make the input impedance really high, like you can with a tube
(valve) amp.When dealing with bipolars, almost any stage needs an
emitter resistor and maybe even some bootstrap. Based on the gain of
the transistor you can raise the input impedance, perhaps even use a
common collector stage in front.

The problem is for a low distortion audio stage you need to drive the
base with a smoothly changing current, not a solid voltage.

I have experimented too, I have made amps distort in a certain way, so
I could see it on a scope as well as hear it, so I am not a babe in the
woods here.

Now I say this, you make the input impedance and gain of the stage what
you want, then select a coupling capacitor that will pass effectively
down to like 10Hz. But when driving a tube (valve) or FET it doesn't
matter as much. On high input impedance devices of course you need a
resistor, in the case of a tube, from grid to ground as well as a
cathode resistor to provide negative bias. In the case of FETs, well
some of them are enhancement mode and don't need a source (cathode)
resistor. Still if you intend to couple capacitively, there must be a
resistor across it.

When the input impedance is really high, it makes sense not to shunt it
out with a low value resistor. All you need is enough mhos to keep the
leakage and a few other things out of the picture. The higher the value
resistor, the lower value capacitance needed. Reactance + Ohm's law,
simple.

On that note I will add, keeping the input impedance high is good for
good sound. No capacitor is perfect. The thing is, what is imperfect
about capacitors ? ESR and ESL. For the uninformed these are effective
series resistance and inductance. (or just not up on all the three
letter acronyms)

The impedance of a capacitor is the vector sum of it's actual reactance
(admittance) and ESR and for higher frequencies the ESL must be brought
into the equation. ESL can usually be ignored for audio frequencies,
except maybe in high power crossover capacitors (in speakers, I mean
passive crossovers)

No matter what the quality of the coupling cap, the higher the input
impedance that it is couplinjg to, the better the quality. This is
because the ESR and ESL become very minimal when a capacitor is feeding
a high impedance.

Also, I totally disagree with switching to bipolar caps in any
equipment, unless you have speakers so cheap that....nevermind that. To
explain:

Capacitors have several variables. Size, capacity, voltage rating,
ESR/ESL, longevity and cost. You shouldn't go lower in capacity and you
can't go lower in voltage. If you get smaller caps they are likely to
not have as low ESR and ESL ratings as the originals. If you get
bipolars they will be bigger or have higher ESR and ESL at any given
rating. That is unless they are made for current and if that is so they
will either be bigger physically, or very expensive.

If the OP can supply me with a schematic of the unit, I might be able
to come up with some good modifications. Wouldn't be the first time.
Pioneer and Realistic both made mistakes in the FM stereo decoder, that
was one I couldn't handle. The problem was inside the chip. All I could
do is throw in a couple resistors to reduce the distortion but that
resulted in a subdued high frequency response. See that's the other
thing, in transistors, you never put a capacitor across an analog
output unless it is ballasted, that is has a resistor in series with
it.

Really the problem with these recievers was partly over modulation by
the FM stations, but this IM and THC was coming from the earlier
generations of PLL stereo demod chips. Although the signal wasn't
really over modulated, it was more than the engineers expected. The
result was that it sounded great on classical and some other types of
music, but on hard rock it was almost intolerable. Especially on
material that was REALLY in stereo, I mean had alot of seperation.

If anyone really wants to improve sound quality, let's face it, as long
as the amp has less than 1% THD and IM, get away from it. No speaker is
that good. Wonder why there is no THD or IM ratings on speakers ? You
would shreik.

My speakers are actually among the very very few rated for THD. The
rating is 0.7% at 1 watt 1Khz sine wave. And that is a fantastic rating
for a speaker. At 10 watts it is probably up there close to double
digit, but that is ALL speakers. They used to say that what comes out
of a speaker is only as good as what goes into it, and that is
absolutely true. But setting sights on the real problems is better than
wasting a shitload of money on things that will not solve the problem.

I paid $400 for these BAs, they were ten years old and I paid MSRP for
them, why ? Because I heard them. They rival Dahlquists and Cantons,
other really good speakers of the days of yore. Big names do not even
approach the sound quality of certain speakers. Pioneer, Bose, even
Technics alothough their electronics used to be pretty good. Macintosh.
Macintosh for _____ sakes !, not even close. Macintosh may have made
some of the finest electronics in the world for audio, but they did not
really excel in speakers IMO.

The only Mac I ever had was a Stereotech 1200, their first reciever.
Little known, but I have it still even though it fried out. I had some
Mac copies of their monoblock tube amps, but that is not the same.
Later they came out with the Mac 4100, their first "official" reciever.
Was nice too, cost alot too. But the brochure had the lid off, and you
could see ALOT of similarity to the Stereotech 1200. ALOT. I mean it
used the very same power amps, with darlington outputs in the SJ series
from Motorola. Nice smooth gain curve on those SJ series outputs, very
smooth for a darlington.

Anyway, I say this to all, if you want better sound, 90% of the time
you need to look at speakers and speaker placement. Amps are pretty
much how they are if designed properly. If they're any good at all you
won't hear a difference. Of course they can put better tone controls on
one and make it sound better in a certain environment. But the speaker
makes the most difference.

JURB
 
H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have a question about the audiophile capacitor replacement.

The term, "audiophile capacitor" is a red flag.






--
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
Hi Graham

I haven't personally measured any changes, but I have been assured by more
than one genuine expert in the field,

What's a genuine expert ?

that an improvement in the dynamic
response and overall flatness of the response curve of a high end - and
we're talking 1200 quid monoblocks here - *is* both audible and measurable.

And I were to tell you that they are complete knobs ?

I know what you're saying - or implying at least - and under normal
circumstances, having been in this business for 35 years and having seen and
looked into virtually every snake oil claim that there is out there, I too
would be skeptical. However, knowing the credentials of the people who have
made these claims, I have no reason to doubt them. I don't know whether you
have ever been over on uk rec audio, but there are some furious debates that
get going over claims about audible differences on cables,

Yes, they're quite barking mad and one of the guys who makes some of the most
extravagant claims has utter rubbish for his 'system'.

and it always
comes down to measurable characteristics in the end, so that is why I am
prepared to accept what has been said with regard to these caps, in this
situation, by these people.

I genuinely believe that measurements with the appropriate equipment *have*
been made, and a difference *has* been seen.

By whom ?

At the end of the day, Jensen
are a reputable company, and have been around for a very long time selling
very high quality caps. Whilst I appreciate that this is not a
recommendation for any claims per se, by the same token, in my experience,
snake oil sellers tend not to last too long, before their claims are
discredited ...

Not in the audio business !

Be assured that unless I was pretty confident of what I was saying, I
wouldn't actually say it on here, and potentially mislead someone that may
be of lesser ability or experience than me. However, all of this has no
relevance to the OP's original question, which I answered with what I
believe to be an honest opinion, which is that attempting to replace
electrolytic interstage coupling caps, with bipolars, will not result in any
audible improvement to his equipment.

Biploars will make it worse actually.

Have you ever measured any capacitors?

I have.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
GregS said:
I have seen certain types of electrolytics dry up

That'll be because they were poorly specified originally.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
In general, replacing coupling caps with smaller values would create
high-pass filters, so you will have less bass. Are you sure they really
are 100u?

For an output coupling cap it's very likely.

That's what I use myself for output coupling and it's pretty much standard in
pro-audio.

There's a reason for it that's nothing to do with -3dB points btw.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
I find some of this hard to believe. I guess a little bit of knowledge
really is dangerous.

If anyone around here other than me knows how to design a transistor
amplifier stage, they know the cap is critical to some extent.

Ignorant, arrogant self-obsessed fool.

Graham
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eeyore said:
What's a genuine expert ?
Dictionary opinion :-
ex·pert /n., v. '?ksp?rt; adj. '?ksp?rt, ?k'sp?rt/ Pronunciation Key -
Show Spelled Pronunciation[n., v. ek-spurt; adj. ek-spurt, ik-spurt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 1. a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular
field; specialist; authority: a language expert.


My opinion :-
Someone who has successfully made a subject his life's work, and whose
pronouncements are accepted as valued by more people who have an
understanding of a subject, than rejected - hence my qualification of
"genuine" rather than the unsubstantiated opinions that are put forward by
someone who only *claims* themselves to be an expert.
And I were to tell you that they are complete knobs ?

Then I would have to tell you that that is a very jaded view, just your
opinion, and not really sustainable. And to be honest, not the sort of input
that I've come to expect from you, whose views I normally respect.
Yes, they're quite barking mad and one of the guys who makes some of the
most
extravagant claims has utter rubbish for his 'system'.

*Some* are quite barking, I would agree, but that does no preclude the fact
that there are one or two on there who are respected figures in the field,
and whose opinions I would consider to have more value than my 'broader
understanding' ones, which are based on many years of repairing the stuff,
rather than designing, modifying and speccing it ...

By whom ?

Errr ... By the people doing the measuring ??
Not in the audio business !

Yes, in *all* businesses.
Biploars will make it worse actually.

So I have to ask, and this is a genuine question, as you clearly believe
that you, unlike the people on uk rec audio, are an expert, in what way will
they make it worse, and why ? And if it is demonstrably the case, why do the
likes of Musical Fidelity use them as interstage couplers as a matter of
course in their high end preamps, and why do they get used as the C element
in better quality crossovers ?
Have you ever measured any capacitors?

I have.

Of course I have measured capacitors, but for the characteristics that are
important for repair purposes, not esoteric values that have an impact on
design of the surrounding circuitry. I follow a rule that has served me well
in the repair business for 35 years, and that is always replace like for
like, and wherever possible, use either a manufacturer supplied component,
or one from the same stable, so I do not normally need to start mesuring odd
characteristics for speccing replacements for faulty components.

I hear what you are saying on all this, but really Graham, you are beginning
to sound like one of those from that other group, who is barking. In the
end, I gave the OP for this thread, what I believed was an honest and valued
opinion. Clearly, you think otherwise, and if you are making claim to being
whatever counts for you as a *true* expert in the field, then I bow to your
superior knowledge. We have had some good exchanges and have given what I
consider to be good joint advice in the past, and I have no desire to fall
out with you over this one, so that's all am going to say on the matter, and
unless anything else appears in this thread that requires me personally to
answer, then I now bow out of it ...

Arfa
 
B

Bob Urz

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
What's a genuine expert ?

Dictionary opinion :-
ex·pert /n., v. '?ksp?rt; adj. '?ksp?rt, ?k'sp?rt/ Pronunciation Key -
Show Spelled Pronunciation[n., v. ek-spurt; adj. ek-spurt, ik-spurt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 1. a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular
field; specialist; authority: a language expert.


My opinion :-
Someone who has successfully made a subject his life's work, and whose
pronouncements are accepted as valued by more people who have an
understanding of a subject, than rejected - hence my qualification of
"genuine" rather than the unsubstantiated opinions that are put forward by
someone who only *claims* themselves to be an expert.

And I were to tell you that they are complete knobs ?


Then I would have to tell you that that is a very jaded view, just your
opinion, and not really sustainable. And to be honest, not the sort of input
that I've come to expect from you, whose views I normally respect.

Yes, they're quite barking mad and one of the guys who makes some of the
most
extravagant claims has utter rubbish for his 'system'.


*Some* are quite barking, I would agree, but that does no preclude the fact
that there are one or two on there who are respected figures in the field,
and whose opinions I would consider to have more value than my 'broader
understanding' ones, which are based on many years of repairing the stuff,
rather than designing, modifying and speccing it ...


By whom ?


Errr ... By the people doing the measuring ??

Not in the audio business !


Yes, in *all* businesses.

Biploars will make it worse actually.


So I have to ask, and this is a genuine question, as you clearly believe
that you, unlike the people on uk rec audio, are an expert, in what way will
they make it worse, and why ? And if it is demonstrably the case, why do the
likes of Musical Fidelity use them as interstage couplers as a matter of
course in their high end preamps, and why do they get used as the C element
in better quality crossovers ?

Have you ever measured any capacitors?

I have.

Graham
Of course I have measured capacitors, but for the characteristics that are
important for repair purposes, not esoteric values that have an impact on
design of the surrounding circuitry.


What the Hell is a "esoteric value"? How does one measure "esoteric
values"? Is there a "esoteric value" meter?

I am sure you own a good cap checker. If you do, it probably measures
capacity, leakage, ESR, and breakdown.

If your trying to quantify some other test, then somebody needs to
explain it or it is snake oil. Now, if someone is sweeping a cap
from 20 to 50K with a audio signal and measuring variations in ESR
or such and can show a "VALID" difference, then that is a quantifiable
test. If that is what they are doing, then the test needs to be stated
with test conditions and type of equipment used.

There are cheaper electrolytics these days as i am sure you know.
Especially the little surface mount guys that have the 1/2 life of
a mouse being chased by a hawk. ANd then the infamous "we stole the
wrong cap formula" fiasco of a while back. So i am not totally against
the "defective cap" theory.


And how do you quantify the final result? Just saying it sounds
"warmer"? Unless its something you can measure on test gear, how do
you prove it? Only a qualified golden ear may apply? And how much of a
difference is it? Is the response smoother? less noise? lower THD?
Less phase variation?


You want to find some real HI-fi experts go down to aus.hi-fi. ;)

Like politics, audio has its "spin doctors" that can convince gullible
people of anything. I imagine some people are still putting green magic
marker on there CD's and swearing they sound better.

Unfortunately, audio is going in the wrong direction. It used to be
the industry fought for another .1% drop in THD. Now we have lossy
formats such as MP3 whose sonic purity is questionable at best.
And cheap home theater receivers where 1 or 2% THD is the norm these
days. I call it the "dumbing down" of our ears. And don't forget the
disposable gear that's so cheap its not fixable. Its the beginning of
the end of the consumer electronics repair industry as we know it.




Bob
 
A

Arfa Daily

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bob Urz said:
Arfa said:
What's a genuine expert ?

Dictionary opinion :-
ex·pert /n., v. '?ksp?rt; adj. '?ksp?rt, ?k'sp?rt/ Pronunciation
Key -
Show Spelled Pronunciation[n., v. ek-spurt; adj. ek-spurt, ik-spurt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 1. a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular
field; specialist; authority: a language expert.


My opinion :-
Someone who has successfully made a subject his life's work, and whose
pronouncements are accepted as valued by more people who have an
understanding of a subject, than rejected - hence my qualification of
"genuine" rather than the unsubstantiated opinions that are put forward
by
someone who only *claims* themselves to be an expert.

that an improvement in the dynamic
response and overall flatness of the response curve of a high end - and
we're talking 1200 quid monoblocks here - *is* both audible and
measurable.

And I were to tell you that they are complete knobs ?


Then I would have to tell you that that is a very jaded view, just your
opinion, and not really sustainable. And to be honest, not the sort of
input
that I've come to expect from you, whose views I normally respect.

I know what you're saying - or implying at least - and under normal
circumstances, having been in this business for 35 years and having seen
and
looked into virtually every snake oil claim that there is out there, I
too
would be skeptical. However, knowing the credentials of the people who
have
made these claims, I have no reason to doubt them. I don't know whether
you
have ever been over on uk rec audio, but there are some furious debates
that
get going over claims about audible differences on cables,

Yes, they're quite barking mad and one of the guys who makes some of the
most
extravagant claims has utter rubbish for his 'system'.


*Some* are quite barking, I would agree, but that does no preclude the
fact
that there are one or two on there who are respected figures in the
field,
and whose opinions I would consider to have more value than my 'broader
understanding' ones, which are based on many years of repairing the
stuff,
rather than designing, modifying and speccing it ...


and it always
comes down to measurable characteristics in the end, so that is why I am
prepared to accept what has been said with regard to these caps, in this
situation, by these people.

I genuinely believe that measurements with the appropriate equipment
*have*
been made, and a difference *has* been seen.

By whom ?


Errr ... By the people doing the measuring ??

At the end of the day, Jensen
are a reputable company, and have been around for a very long time
selling
very high quality caps. Whilst I appreciate that this is not a
recommendation for any claims per se, by the same token, in my
experience,
snake oil sellers tend not to last too long, before their claims are
discredited ...

Not in the audio business !


Yes, in *all* businesses.

Be assured that unless I was pretty confident of what I was saying, I
wouldn't actually say it on here, and potentially mislead someone that
may
be of lesser ability or experience than me. However, all of this has no
relevance to the OP's original question, which I answered with what I
believe to be an honest opinion, which is that attempting to replace
electrolytic interstage coupling caps, with bipolars, will not result in
any
audible improvement to his equipment.


Biploars will make it worse actually.


So I have to ask, and this is a genuine question, as you clearly believe
that you, unlike the people on uk rec audio, are an expert, in what way
will
they make it worse, and why ? And if it is demonstrably the case, why do
the
likes of Musical Fidelity use them as interstage couplers as a matter of
course in their high end preamps, and why do they get used as the C
element
in better quality crossovers ?

Have you ever measured any capacitors?

I have.

Graham
Of course I have measured capacitors, but for the characteristics that
are
important for repair purposes, not esoteric values that have an impact on
design of the surrounding circuitry.


What the Hell is a "esoteric value"? How does one measure "esoteric
values"? Is there a "esoteric value" meter?

Oh dear ! Clearly, English is your native language, but it would seem that
there are some words that you just haven't come across ... Do they not have
dictionaries wherever you are ? I actually agree with most of what you have
said, and I never implied that I believed in golden ears, or anything else
in the same vein. All I said, that seems to have created the rather
vitriolic response from Graham, was that I genuinely believed that there
were measurable differences in the performance of "audio grade" caps over
bog standard types, and that there were people out there who had made those
tests. The reference to "esoteric values" is a tongue in cheek allusion to
the 'snake oil experts' who will present complex-sounding measurements that
are actually bollocks. For your further education ...

es·o·ter·ic /??s?'t?r?k/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[es-uh-ter-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-adjective 1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have
special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric allusions.
2. belonging to the select few.
3. private; secret; confidential.
4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be revealed
only to the initiates of a group: the esoteric doctrines of Pythagoras.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1645-55; < Gk esoterikós inner, equiv. to ester(os) inner
+ -ikos -ic]

-Related forms
es·o·ter·i·cal·ly, adverb


-Synonyms 1. abstruse, arcane, cryptic, enigmatic.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc.
2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source es·o·ter·ic (es'?-ter'ik)
Pronunciation Key
adj.
1..
1.. Intended for or understood by only a particular group: an
esoteric cult. See Synonyms at mysterious.
2.. Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number
of people.
3.. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
4.. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.
2..
1.. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
2.. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.


[Greek esoterikos, from esotero, comparative of eso, within; see en in
Indo-European roots.]

es'o·ter'i·cal·ly adv.

(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the
English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
WordNet - Cite This Source esoteric

adjective
confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle; "a
compilation of esoteric philosophical theories" [ant: exoteric]

Arfa d;~}
 
H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
What the Hell is a "esoteric value"? How does one measure "esoteric
values"? Is there a "esoteric value" meter?

Sure. It's called an E-Meter and your local Scientology Centre has them.







--
 
G

GregS

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sure. It's called an E-Meter and your local Scientology Centre has them.

One parameter that might be considered esoteric, is delectric absorbtion.
This will affect capacitance, but can be measured out. it can
affect DC circuits, or ac circuits with a dc bias. Better caps have low DA.
Electrolytics are really bad in this respect. DA also causes frequency
dependant cap values.

greg
 
B

BOB Urz

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dam, that's got me jumping on the sofa! ;)

One parameter that might be considered esoteric, is delectric absorbtion. This will affect
capacitance, but can be measured out. it can affect DC circuits, or ac circuits with a dc
bias. Better caps have low DA. Electrolytics are really bad in this respect. DA also causes
frequency dependant cap values.

greg

Now were cooking on gas. Define what can make a difference.
Frequency dependent values. Now, you have to define a standard
repeatable test to quantify the results. Other wise its smoke and mirrors again. Is there a
Audio standard that i know about how to do this? not really. So pick a arbitrary test set up
and call it fact? To do this, you would need to define frequency range. drive and load
impedance. and what deviation from standard parameters constitute an audible difference. I
suppose its not beyond the realm of possibility (if you define the above test and criteria) to
select caps like how you match vacuum tubes for characteristics.

A few interesting links on the subject:

http://www.audience-av.com/on_capacitor_dielectric_material.htm

http://www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1570,28,00.html

Bob
 
B

BOB Urz

Jan 1, 1970
0
Arfa said:
Bob Urz said:
Arfa said:
What's a genuine expert ?


Dictionary opinion :-
ex·pert /n., v. '?ksp?rt; adj. '?ksp?rt, ?k'sp?rt/ Pronunciation
Key -
Show Spelled Pronunciation[n., v. ek-spurt; adj. ek-spurt, ik-spurt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 1. a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular
field; specialist; authority: a language expert.


My opinion :-
Someone who has successfully made a subject his life's work, and whose
pronouncements are accepted as valued by more people who have an
understanding of a subject, than rejected - hence my qualification of
"genuine" rather than the unsubstantiated opinions that are put forward
by
someone who only *claims* themselves to be an expert.


that an improvement in the dynamic
response and overall flatness of the response curve of a high end - and
we're talking 1200 quid monoblocks here - *is* both audible and
measurable.

And I were to tell you that they are complete knobs ?



Then I would have to tell you that that is a very jaded view, just your
opinion, and not really sustainable. And to be honest, not the sort of
input
that I've come to expect from you, whose views I normally respect.


I know what you're saying - or implying at least - and under normal
circumstances, having been in this business for 35 years and having seen
and
looked into virtually every snake oil claim that there is out there, I
too
would be skeptical. However, knowing the credentials of the people who
have
made these claims, I have no reason to doubt them. I don't know whether
you
have ever been over on uk rec audio, but there are some furious debates
that
get going over claims about audible differences on cables,

Yes, they're quite barking mad and one of the guys who makes some of the
most
extravagant claims has utter rubbish for his 'system'.



*Some* are quite barking, I would agree, but that does no preclude the
fact
that there are one or two on there who are respected figures in the
field,
and whose opinions I would consider to have more value than my 'broader
understanding' ones, which are based on many years of repairing the
stuff,
rather than designing, modifying and speccing it ...



and it always
comes down to measurable characteristics in the end, so that is why I am
prepared to accept what has been said with regard to these caps, in this
situation, by these people.

I genuinely believe that measurements with the appropriate equipment
*have*
been made, and a difference *has* been seen.

By whom ?


Errr ... By the people doing the measuring ??



At the end of the day, Jensen
are a reputable company, and have been around for a very long time
selling
very high quality caps. Whilst I appreciate that this is not a
recommendation for any claims per se, by the same token, in my
experience,
snake oil sellers tend not to last too long, before their claims are
discredited ...

Not in the audio business !



Yes, in *all* businesses.


Be assured that unless I was pretty confident of what I was saying, I
wouldn't actually say it on here, and potentially mislead someone that
may
be of lesser ability or experience than me. However, all of this has no
relevance to the OP's original question, which I answered with what I
believe to be an honest opinion, which is that attempting to replace
electrolytic interstage coupling caps, with bipolars, will not result in
any
audible improvement to his equipment.


Biploars will make it worse actually.


So I have to ask, and this is a genuine question, as you clearly believe
that you, unlike the people on uk rec audio, are an expert, in what way
will
they make it worse, and why ? And if it is demonstrably the case, why do
the
likes of Musical Fidelity use them as interstage couplers as a matter of
course in their high end preamps, and why do they get used as the C
element
in better quality crossovers ?


Have you ever measured any capacitors?

I have.

Graham


Of course I have measured capacitors, but for the characteristics that
are
important for repair purposes, not esoteric values that have an impact on
design of the surrounding circuitry.


What the Hell is a "esoteric value"? How does one measure "esoteric
values"? Is there a "esoteric value" meter?

Oh dear ! Clearly, English is your native language, but it would seem that
there are some words that you just haven't come across ... Do they not have
dictionaries wherever you are ? I actually agree with most of what you have
said, and I never implied that I believed in golden ears, or anything else
in the same vein. All I said, that seems to have created the rather
vitriolic response from Graham, was that I genuinely believed that there
were measurable differences in the performance of "audio grade" caps over
bog standard types, and that there were people out there who had made those
tests. The reference to "esoteric values" is a tongue in cheek allusion to
the 'snake oil experts' who will present complex-sounding measurements that
are actually bollocks. For your further education ...

es·o·ter·ic /??s?'t?r?k/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[es-uh-ter-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-adjective 1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have
special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric allusions.
2. belonging to the select few.
3. private; secret; confidential.
4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be revealed
only to the initiates of a group: the esoteric doctrines of Pythagoras.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1645-55; < Gk esoterikós inner, equiv. to ester(os) inner
+ -ikos -ic]

-Related forms
es·o·ter·i·cal·ly, adverb

-Synonyms 1. abstruse, arcane, cryptic, enigmatic.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc.
2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source es·o·ter·ic (es'?-ter'ik)
Pronunciation Key
adj.
1..
1.. Intended for or understood by only a particular group: an
esoteric cult. See Synonyms at mysterious.
2.. Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number
of people.
3.. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
4.. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.
2..
1.. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.
2.. Not publicly disclosed; confidential.

[Greek esoterikos, from esotero, comparative of eso, within; see en in
Indo-European roots.]

es'o·ter'i·cal·ly adv.

(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the
English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
WordNet - Cite This Source esoteric

adjective
confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle; "a
compilation of esoteric philosophical theories" [ant: exoteric]

Arfa d;~}

Ok, you have a dictionary definition of esoteric. You have so called experts telling
you what esoteric is. What are there qualifications?
I don't recall seeing any engineering school classes on esoteric.
What makes these guys so much smarter than everyone else?
And why is so much of the stuff Voodoo science it seems?
And VERY costly to boot?

Like i said before, test caps with a standard, quantifiable test of
some sort. and put the charts with it to show in black and what
what the differences are. And under what conditions, loads and voltage ratings.
Anybody can tell or sell you anything. that does
not make it true or better. There are still people selling magnets
that go on automotive fuel lines that claim give you
better mileage. After all these years! PT Barnum was right. ;)

I am not against better quality components of any nature.
But i want to see the proof. Being in the service industry for
years, i am all for the best bang for the buck. These days its
a matter of survival in the service industry. In the quest for
that, i have been on both the good and bad end of component
sourcing. Sometimes you just need to find out for yourself.

Bob
 
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