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Auto battery question

S

Sam the Bam

Jan 1, 1970
0
A few days ago, my car wouldn't start. The dashboard
electronics were all working, so I figured it's a
dying battery. I didn't have time to fix it, so the
car sat in the street. (I have another vehicle)

This morning, the battery was totally dead. No electric
power. I asked a neighbor for a jump start, we hooked
it up, and again the starter wouldn't respond. However,
the electronics were operating, so it's not the regulator or anything.

I thought, oh oh, problem! Starting motor burned out,
or frozen engine. Then I thought: what else could it
be? Maybe the battery is shorting out the circuitry,
is that possible? That means when we tried the jump
start, the battery drew all the current, leaving
nothing for the starter.

So I unhooked the battery, and asked another neighbor
for a jump, directly to the cables. But he refused!
He said, without the battery, his alternator could
blow out. I.e. my battery 'protects' his charger.

Could he be right? It doesn't make sense to me.

Any suggestions appreciated -

Sam
 
U

Uncle Al

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam said:
A few days ago, my car wouldn't start. The dashboard
electronics were all working, so I figured it's a
dying battery. I didn't have time to fix it, so the
car sat in the street. (I have another vehicle)

This morning, the battery was totally dead. No electric
power. I asked a neighbor for a jump start, we hooked
it up, and again the starter wouldn't respond. However,
the electronics were operating, so it's not the regulator or anything.

I thought, oh oh, problem! Starting motor burned out,
or frozen engine. Then I thought: what else could it
be? Maybe the battery is shorting out the circuitry,
is that possible? That means when we tried the jump
start, the battery drew all the current, leaving
nothing for the starter.

So I unhooked the battery, and asked another neighbor
for a jump, directly to the cables. But he refused!
He said, without the battery, his alternator could
blow out. I.e. my battery 'protects' his charger.

Could he be right? It doesn't make sense to me.

Any suggestions appreciated -

You are supposed to check the electrolyte level in your battery -
monthly for standard issue, every six months for "no water"
batteries. Use only distilled water for makeup. Carefully wipe the
electrolyte caps, battery top, and electrodes. Smear silicone grease
on the electrodes to prevent corrosion (especially the hot terminal).

The system is designed to have the battery attached as buffer. Start
the good car. Hook the hot sides with the jumpers then hook the
grounds. Race the good car's engine as you start the dead car.
Unless the dead battery is shorted the car will continue to run.
Drive down to Sears, have your diodes checked, and buy the biggest
DieHard that will fit. A DieHard will give you up to 8 years of
service if you treat it well. (What does that say about the projected
longetivity of hybrid autos?)

If you are in Europe you might want to check before hookup that both
cars use the sane sign convention for ground. English ignition
electronics are diagnostic of how far the Industrial Revoluton
penetrated inot the mob.
 
M

mike

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam said:
A few days ago, my car wouldn't start. The dashboard
electronics were all working, so I figured it's a
dying battery. I didn't have time to fix it, so the
car sat in the street. (I have another vehicle)

This morning, the battery was totally dead. No electric
power. I asked a neighbor for a jump start, we hooked
it up, and again the starter wouldn't respond. However,
the electronics were operating, so it's not the regulator or anything.

I thought, oh oh, problem! Starting motor burned out,
or frozen engine. Then I thought: what else could it
be? Maybe the battery is shorting out the circuitry,
is that possible? That means when we tried the jump
start, the battery drew all the current, leaving
nothing for the starter.

So I unhooked the battery, and asked another neighbor
for a jump, directly to the cables. But he refused!
He said, without the battery, his alternator could
blow out. I.e. my battery 'protects' his charger.

Could he be right? It doesn't make sense to me.

Any suggestions appreciated -

Sam

Would be helpful to know the make/model/year of your
vehicle. Advice for a 53 Chevy might be diffrerent than
for a 2004 Peterbuilt.

If the starter is getting juice and the motor is locked,
you'll know it.
Modern cars have a bunch of interlocks on the gear shift,
clutch etc. to prevent you starting the car unsafely.

I thought I had a dead starter once. Turned out that
I wasn't depressing the clutch far enough to hit the
starter enable switch.

If your headlights didn't dim when you hit the starter button,
your battery being dead wasn't the immediate cause of your original problem.
mike

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T

Tom Biasi

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sam the Bam said:
A few days ago, my car wouldn't start. The dashboard
electronics were all working, so I figured it's a
dying battery. I didn't have time to fix it, so the
car sat in the street. (I have another vehicle)

This morning, the battery was totally dead. No electric
power. I asked a neighbor for a jump start, we hooked
it up, and again the starter wouldn't respond. However,
the electronics were operating, so it's not the regulator or anything.

I thought, oh oh, problem! Starting motor burned out,
or frozen engine. Then I thought: what else could it
be? Maybe the battery is shorting out the circuitry,
is that possible? That means when we tried the jump
start, the battery drew all the current, leaving
nothing for the starter.

So I unhooked the battery, and asked another neighbor
for a jump, directly to the cables. But he refused!
He said, without the battery, his alternator could
blow out. I.e. my battery 'protects' his charger.

Could he be right? It doesn't make sense to me.

Any suggestions appreciated -

Sam

Hi Sam,
Anytime you jump start another vehicle with yours you risk damage to your
alternator.
You don't know what kind of problems caused the dead battery condition.
Most of the time the dead car starts and you are on your way, but it is
possible to damage your regulator, or diodes if the conditions are right.
As for hooking them to the cables, the only additional risk is shorting to
chassis and risking damage to the system.
You would accomplish nothing by this anyway, your car wouldn't run long
after he removed his battery.
See if your dead battery will take a charge, if not, get a new one and drive
the car to have the charging system checked.
Check also for current draw when the car is off.
As an aside, it is quite common for a battery to operate the electronics but
not start the car. The electronics take relatively low current that the
battery usually can still supply. The connections should be checked first,
this is the most common cause.
Regards,
Tom
 
A

Ace

Jan 1, 1970
0
I had similar problem and found one of the battery cables (don't recall
which) was corroded so badly a wire was interrupted. The tail end of the
cable had a couple other wires going going different places??????????

Oh, the cable was corroded inside the protective sheath, not between
terminal and the round connector. The battery had been using a lot of
water, but I ignored it. Guess the fumes did their number.
 
N

nailer

Jan 1, 1970
0
you start the secondcar, you connect the leads to the battery in the
first car, you connect the leads to the battery in the second car
(with a positive terminal disconnected). you start the engine in the
second car.
 
N

nailer

Jan 1, 1970
0
R u sure, the starter motor is not disconnected? Otherwise follow UA
advice.
I would not expect all cells to be shorted, so you should get some
(lower) voltage, insufficient to start.
How often is you car being used? How many miles per week?

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 18:26:56 -0400, "Tom Biasi"

*
**>A few days ago, my car wouldn't start. The dashboard
*> electronics were all working, so I figured it's a
*> dying battery. I didn't have time to fix it, so the
*> car sat in the street. (I have another vehicle)
*>
*> This morning, the battery was totally dead. No electric
*> power. I asked a neighbor for a jump start, we hooked
*> it up, and again the starter wouldn't respond. However,
*> the electronics were operating, so it's not the regulator or anything.
*>
*> I thought, oh oh, problem! Starting motor burned out,
*> or frozen engine. Then I thought: what else could it
*> be? Maybe the battery is shorting out the circuitry,
*> is that possible? That means when we tried the jump
*> start, the battery drew all the current, leaving
*> nothing for the starter.
*>
*> So I unhooked the battery, and asked another neighbor
*> for a jump, directly to the cables. But he refused!
*> He said, without the battery, his alternator could
*> blow out. I.e. my battery 'protects' his charger.
*>
*> Could he be right? It doesn't make sense to me.
*>
*> Any suggestions appreciated -
*>
*> Sam
*>
*
*Hi Sam,
*Anytime you jump start another vehicle with yours you risk damage to your
*alternator.
*You don't know what kind of problems caused the dead battery condition.
*Most of the time the dead car starts and you are on your way, but it is
*possible to damage your regulator, or diodes if the conditions are right.
*As for hooking them to the cables, the only additional risk is shorting to
*chassis and risking damage to the system.
*You would accomplish nothing by this anyway, your car wouldn't run long
*after he removed his battery.
*See if your dead battery will take a charge, if not, get a new one and drive
*the car to have the charging system checked.
*Check also for current draw when the car is off.
*As an aside, it is quite common for a battery to operate the electronics but
*not start the car. The electronics take relatively low current that the
*battery usually can still supply. The connections should be checked first,
*this is the most common cause.
*Regards,
*Tom
*
 
R

roma

Jan 1, 1970
0
A few days ago, my car wouldn't start. The dashboard
electronics were all working, so I figured it's a
dying battery. I didn't have time to fix it, so the
car sat in the street. (I have another vehicle)

This morning, the battery was totally dead. No electric
power. I asked a neighbor for a jump start, we hooked
it up, and again the starter wouldn't respond. However,
the electronics were operating, so it's not the regulator or anything.

I thought, oh oh, problem! Starting motor burned out,
or frozen engine. Then I thought: what else could it
be? Maybe the battery is shorting out the circuitry,
is that possible? That means when we tried the jump
start, the battery drew all the current, leaving
nothing for the starter.

So I unhooked the battery, and asked another neighbor
for a jump, directly to the cables. But he refused!
He said, without the battery, his alternator could
blow out. I.e. my battery 'protects' his charger.

Could he be right? It doesn't make sense to me.

Any suggestions appreciated -

Sam

Back in the olden days a hammer was a very usefultool to have around to
hit the stucked open starter solenoid , aside from that everything else
looked normal .
Old timer , roma
 
M

Mike Berger

Jan 1, 1970
0
Those class-action lawsuits about defective diehard batteries
and fradulent repair at sears doesn't discourage you?

Uncle said:
Drive down to Sears, have your diodes checked, and buy the biggest
DieHard that will fit. A DieHard will give you up to 8 years of
service if you treat it well. (What does that say about the projected
longetivity of hybrid autos?)
\
 
U

Uncle Al

Jan 1, 1970
0
Mike said:
Those class-action lawsuits about defective diehard batteries
and fradulent repair at sears doesn't discourage you?


\

My 1989 VW Golf recently started on its third Diehard. It works for
me. Sears is no problem if you stand there watching the wetback work,
making the occasional helpful comment when he puts a peeled banana
into the crankcase.

"Hola, pendejo..."
 
D

David Bostwick

Jan 1, 1970
0
Those class-action lawsuits about defective diehard batteries
and fradulent repair at sears doesn't discourage you?

Some 10-year-old cases, settled and fixed, still bother you? You must really
lose sleep over the fall of the Roman Empire.
 
A

Attila the Bum

Jan 1, 1970
0
Not "fall", "collapse" (gene-pool
failure, or boredom, I forget which :)


Atty (Mebee dey gived wemen right to vote?)
 
D

David A. Webb

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don't forget, the battery acts like a shock absorber for the car's
electronics. Running a newer car on alternator power only has the
potential to ruin vehicle electrical systems because of the spikey
voltage the alternator produces. The battery absorbs and smoothes the
spikes.

I can't imagine hurting your neighbor's car by jumping your vehicle
with your battery disconnected. But it is his car, and you play by
his rules.

Having a partially dead battery go flatline in a short time makes me
think you have a short somewhere.

After checking to make sure you didn't leave your headlights or dome
light on, you might have to look a little farther.

Granted it, could be a bad battery, but I've never seen one go
partially dead, then completely dead. Usually they won't hold a good
charge, or they are completely dead (open internally)

I had a diode go bad in an alternator once.
I found it accidentally. While I was attempting to check the
alternator's output (engine cold) I noticed the alternator was warm to
the touch. The diode was getting hot, and draining the battery.

Don't jump to conclusions too quickly about a bad battery.
 
S

Sam the Bam

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tom said:
Anytime you jump start another vehicle with yours you risk
damage to your alternator.

As for hooking them to the cables, the only additional risk
is shorting to chassis and risking damage to the system.

That's what I figured. I don't see how my battery being
disconnected is a hazard.
You would accomplish nothing by this anyway, your car wouldn't run long
after he removed his battery.

Why not? As I understand it, the alternator runs everything
after start up. Is there an interlock, which shuts down the
system if it detects an open circuit condition?
See if your dead battery will take a charge, if not,
get a new one and drive
the car to have the charging system checked.

Any service garage can check for this?
Check also for current draw when the car is off.

How to do this? There are no gauges on the dashboard.

Sam
 
S

Sam the Bam

Jan 1, 1970
0
David said:
Don't forget, the battery acts like a shock absorber for the car's
electronics. Running a newer car on alternator power only has
the potential to ruin vehicle electrical systems because of
the spikey voltage the alternator produces. The battery
absorbs and smoothes the spikes.

I see, that's the 'buffer' explanation.
I can't imagine hurting your neighbor's car by jumping your vehicle
with your battery disconnected.

So as long as his battery is OK, it shouldn't matter
if mine is disconnected.

Granted it, could be a bad battery, but I've never seen one go
partially dead, then completely dead. Usually they
won't hold a good charge, or they are completely dead
(open internally)

I had a diode go bad in an alternator once.
I found it accidentally. While I was attempting to check the
alternator's output (engine cold) I noticed the alternator was warm to
the touch. The diode was getting hot, and draining the battery.


I'll try this, but I have to get the car started first...
Don't jump to conclusions too quickly about a bad battery.

It's hard to troubleshoot, if it isn't the battery.
I'm leery about going to a mechanic, and saying,
"I don't know what's wrong, check it out" - that's
how you get shaved.

Sam
 
B

BobG

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don't ever disconnect that battery once the engine is running, because
the alternator, which was happily charging the battery when it was
connected, will suddenly see the charging current drop, and shoot the
charging voltage up to 60V. This is called a 'load dump' and makes for
lots of fried 12V electronics.
 
S

Sam the Bam

Jan 1, 1970
0
BobG said:
Don't ever disconnect that battery once the engine is running,
because the alternator, which was happily charging the battery
when it was connected, will suddenly see the charging current
drop, and shoot the charging voltage up to 60V. This is called
a 'load dump' and makes for lots of fried 12V electronics.

That may be true, but it's crappy design, and borderline
incredible. It's easy to design a shunt which detects
an open circuit condition.

Sam
 
T

Tom Biasi

Jan 1, 1970
0
Why not? As I understand it, the alternator runs everything
after start up. Is there an interlock, which shuts down the
system if it detects an open circuit condition?
The alternator does not run everything, the battery runs everything. The
alternator keeps the battery charged.

Any service garage can check for this?

Any service station that does electrical work.
How to do this? There are no gauges on the dashboard.

The station can check for this.
 
P

Peter Bennett

Jan 1, 1970
0
David A. Webb wrote:

So as long as his battery is OK, it shouldn't matter
if mine is disconnected.

Howver, if your car does start, and you then disconnect the jumper
cables, your alternator voltage will rise uncontrollably, since the
battery (now disconnected) will normally prevent the system voltage
from rising above 14V or so.

With no battery, the voltage will rise enough to destroy the diodes in
your alternator, and also most of the electronics in your car.
 
K

kell

Jan 1, 1970
0
get a new one and drive
Any service garage can check for this?


How to do this? There are no gauges on the dashboard.

Sam

You can check the car for current draw easily if you have a multimeter.
Set the multimeter to measure current; put it on the highest setting.
Disconnect one of the battery cables and use the multimeter's leads to
complete the circuit you have just broken. The meter will tell you
exactly how much current is drawing.
You can check for a bad diode in the alternator. With the car off,
disconnect the heavy wire from the alternator and do the same
multimeter test.
 
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