Bose Wave Radio Revisited ...

[William Sommerwerck]

Lush Room Filling Sound is a Subjective observation and therefore an
opinion. There is no scale or measurement for Lush Room Filling Sound and no
matter how many people you ask it is still an opinion. Say I read a book and
say that is an excellent book, though someone else reads it and says it is
terrible. Well I want to prove the book is a good book so I let readers
compare it to another book. The results will be an opinion no matter who
reads it or how many people read it, even if they all say it is excellent.

I can set up a system that almost everyone would agree had "lush,
room-filling sound". It's not difficult to do.

 

[Arfa Daily]

With a bit of careful shopping, you can assemble a true component
system -- with separate speakers, receiver, and CD player -- that
outclasses
the 740 in every way. Oh, it won't fit on your desktop? Well, who gives a
damn? Bose claims their products are as good as a roomful of components.

Apples and oranges again ...

4. I've never heard anyone claim the Wave was inferior to "a flea-market
transistor radio".

Oh dear oh dear. That's called 'tongue in cheek' or 'wry' humour. It is not
meant to be taken literally, and the fact that you have, possibly reveals a
lot about your declared position on all of this ...

Bose might have had another motive. As I write this, I'm reminded of a
story
my father used to tell me. He claimed that, back in the '30s, Gillette
manufactured a poor-quality electric shaver, in an attempt to make
electric
shavers look bad. It's possible that Bose deliberately designed and sold
poor direct-radiating speakers to make their own direct/reflecting
products
look better.

That's just 'conspiracy theory'. 70 years ago, maybe, but it's probably just
urban myth anyway, and not something that I believe you could get away with
these days. And anyway, as it's just a "claim" made by your father, it has
no relevance to this discussion, where you appear to be absolutely driven
down the road of fact and truth.

I don't propose that you try and sue Bose yourself (as you have suggested in
another reply in this thread). If you did, you would probably finish up
ruined. But by the same token, you can't keep making these claims, without
having the balls to try to do something about them. You say (elsewhere) that
you would like to get a mag or whatever to do a full review of all of Bose's
products, and expose them for the liars that they are. So GET OFF YOUR ARSE
and do something. You can bleat on here all you like, but that is all it's
ever going to be.

You have said that you consider your experience justifies you being an anti
Bose evangelist, and you consider it to be your moral duty to advise people
who know less, of just what fools they are making of themselves, by
considering purchasing Bose products. Given that you occupy this moral
high-ground, and clearly consider it to be your mission in life to expose
Bose as liars and cheats, I would urge you to 'test the water' with some of
these magazines, or indeed with whatever serves in the U.S. as a consumer
protection agency, and see if anyone else out there *who actually matters*,
shares your view, and is prepared to join with you to do something about it.

Until such time as you can do this, and report back on your results, there
is little point in your continuing to post endless neatly numbered lists of
'proofs' for your beliefs. It really does remind me of when you get a couple
of JWs at the front door, who have carefully prepared and rehearsed 'proofs'
of every line in the bible ...

Arfa

 

[Ron(UK)]

Arfa Daily wrote:

And yes, I know it's 'sterling'. There's no need to put your pedantic
"[sic]" in. That was a typo because I deal regularly with a person whose
name is Stirling, spelt like that, and type his name several times a
week.

Not.. _The_ Stirling? ex GP driver and all round good egg?

Ron(UK)

Sorry Ron, but nah! as they say. This Stirling is a little Scottish lad who
runs the spares department at a company that I do work for. And it's his
last name, not first. How's life up there at Lune Valley, anyway. I see that
you are currently not carrying out any service work. Nothing serious wrong,
I hope ?

Thanks for your concern, but it`s nothing medical or anything like
that. It`s just not really economically viable any more, and I was
getting brassed off with it - it can be frustrating at times as you know
- so I decided to take a break and concentrate on other things that are
more fun. I still do the more interesting jobs, but it`s more fun using
the equipment than mending it. Strangely, since giving it up, I`ve been
offered far more work than I had been getting for years.

Ron(UK)

 

[[email protected]]

Much snippage...

I would not own Bose even if the alternative was nothing, as nothing
is better than what comes out of their creations.

However, that is my OPINION. It ain't nohow necessarily a fact. I have
heard their wave radios in both their stores (aka "ideal" locations")
and in several household locations, including that of our neighbor
upstate. I found them universally unlistenable. Given the alternatives
available to me, I would not even purchase one even if it came up at
that proverbial yard-sale/flea market.

And at the same time, it give my neighbor upstate considerable
pleasure every day. It fits where she needs it to fit, and she did not
grudge the price even though she is not wealthy by any means.

William has a bug up his fundament about Bose. I agree that their
advertizing displays questionable ethics - but they are no worse than
anyone else pandering to the great unwashed and better than the
average vinyl window salesman... . And unlike the average vinyl
window, their product might last a while relative to similar
alternatives.

No kicking intended, but Bose can be a hot-button issue as well as a
pretty serious boil on the soft underbelly of High Fidelity. In the
immortal works of Abraham Lincoln:

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people
some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the
time.

16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

Best let it go at that.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

 

[Arfa Daily]

Arfa Daily wrote:


And yes, I know it's 'sterling'. There's no need to put your pedantic
"[sic]" in. That was a typo because I deal regularly with a person
whose name is Stirling, spelt like that, and type his name several
times a week.

Not.. _The_ Stirling? ex GP driver and all round good egg?

Ron(UK)

Sorry Ron, but nah! as they say. This Stirling is a little Scottish lad
who runs the spares department at a company that I do work for. And it's
his last name, not first. How's life up there at Lune Valley, anyway. I
see that you are currently not carrying out any service work. Nothing
serious wrong, I hope ?

Thanks for your concern, but it`s nothing medical or anything like that.
It`s just not really economically viable any more, and I was getting
brassed off with it - it can be frustrating at times as you know - so I
decided to take a break and concentrate on other things that are more fun.
I still do the more interesting jobs, but it`s more fun using the
equipment than mending it. Strangely, since giving it up, I`ve been
offered far more work than I had been getting for years.

Ron(UK)

Know what you mean. It gets a little harder and a little less predictable
year on year, I think. A few years back, I lost a large contract from a
friend of mine, due to him closing his service operation down (it was big,
but he was fed up of it) to concentrate on his 'specialist' satellite
equipment supply and installation business. Which is, as it happens, still
going strong, and causing him a lot less hassle than service was. Anyway, at
that time, we were just in the process of selling one of our other
businesses, which my wife ran, so we banked the money from it, went on
holiday, and took a year virtually off. After that time, I had reached the
point where I had a lot of potential work again, so I started back up. That
year of 'rest' did us both a power of good, so if you are able to do the
same, I would recommend it.

It's a bit quiet on service again at the moment, but we have another
business run by the wife, which keeps us going, so I guess we will continue
to get by.

Glad that there's nothing 'serious' wrong, anyway.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

I would not own Bose even if the alternative was nothing, as nothing
is better than what comes out of their creations.

However, that is my OPINION. It ain't nohow necessarily a fact. I have
heard their wave radios in both their stores (aka "ideal" locations")
and in several household locations, including that of our neighbor
upstate. I found them universally unlistenable. Given the alternatives
available to me, I would not even purchase one even if it came up at
that proverbial yard-sale/flea market.

And at the same time, it give my neighbor upstate considerable
pleasure every day. It fits where she needs it to fit, and she did not
grudge the price even though she is not wealthy by any means.

William has a bug up his fundament about Bose. I agree that their
advertizing displays questionable ethics - but they are no worse than
anyone else pandering to the great unwashed and better than the
average vinyl window salesman... . And unlike the average vinyl
window, their product might last a while relative to similar
alternatives.

No kicking intended, but Bose can be a hot-button issue as well as a
pretty serious boil on the soft underbelly of High Fidelity. In the
immortal works of Abraham Lincoln:

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people
some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the
time.

16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

Best let it go at that.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

Yes, now that is valid input. You have an opinion and you accept that it is
that. It's not diametrically opposed to mine, but neither is it aligned. I
accept your opinion for being that. You have reasons for that opinion, and
accept that others have theirs, such as your neighbour, who is fine with her
Bose. You think that they sound terrible, your friend thinks hers is great.
I happen to think that they produce very acceptable sound, given what they
are. I never said that they are good value for money, as I don't
particularly think that they are. In the final analysis, it is, as you say,
all just opinion, and I consider it unfair on a company, whether they are
indeed good or bad, to kick them in public, based on nothing more than an
opinion, and then not have the conviction to take it further.

Thank you for your sensible comments and observations, Peter.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

I have to disagree a bit. Advertising, in general, is not particularly
honest. But Bose steps over the line.

Yes, now that is valid input. You have an opinion and you accept that it is
that. It's not diametrically opposed to mine, but neither is it aligned. I
accept your opinion for being that. You have reasons for that opinion, and
accept that others have theirs, such as your neighbour, who is fine with her
Bose. You think that they sound terrible, your friend thinks hers is great.
I happen to think that they produce very acceptable sound, given what they
are. I never said that they are good value for money, as I don't
particularly think that they are. In the final analysis, it is, as you say,
all just opinion, and I consider it unfair on a company, whether they are
indeed good or bad, to kick them in public, based on nothing more than an
opinion, and then not have the conviction to take it further.

Thank you for your sensible comments and observations, Peter.

I mean no offense to Peter, but I find his views no more sensible than mine.

Mr. Daily, it is NOT "all just opinion". This is an "I don't give a damn"
way of looking at life, and I detest it.

There is a significant difference between "rectal orifice" opinion, and
informed opinion. I have some experience in live recording, and have a good
sense of what does and doesn't sound "life-like". My opinion is an informed
one. Peter, I'm sure, has a critical ear and a lot of listening experience,
and though he may coyly dismiss his opinions, I'm sure they are more
"sensible" than those of the average listener.

If a politician says something untrue, you speak up. I see no reason why
that shouldn't apply to businesses.

 

[[email protected]]

If a politician says something untrue, you speak up. I see no reason why
that shouldn't apply to businesses.

William:

With respect, this is where you go off the rails and wind up a
steaming wreck at the bottom of the ravine.

Politicians make a fine art of avoiding truth. It is their stock-in-
trade, and the better they are at it, the more successful they will be
at politics. Not only is an honest politican an oxymoron, but one who
will neither succeed in politics nor in bringing home the bacon - er,
pork for their constituents.

Boss Tweed of Tammanny Hall defined an honest politician as: one who
once bought, stays bought. I would take a lying weasel (sex) such as
Clinton over a lying weasel (criminal behavior) such as Nixon or a
post turtle such as G.W.Bush (WMD) every time. Clinton got caught. So
what? Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, innumerable others did not. Lying
weasels all of them. That is the political world. The art of making
sausage is one that should not be too closely examined. What is far
more important is to educate that same great unwashed to think for
themselves. Don't tell them what is "right" or "wrong", but give them
the tools to discern the difference. Somewhat like what is expressed
in that old adage: Give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish...

I grew up on Rikki-tikki-tavi: Run and find out. Sure one gets burnt
every so often. But one learns a lot.

Business has a single goal: Make Money. That is required for survival
and survival of businesses of any stripe is what provides jobs and
supports the economy and all that sort of stuff. "Profit" is the
difference between what something is worth (labor, material, service
and so forth) and what is charged or paid for it. If a laborer were
paid what he was worth, the company that paid him would fail in short
order. If goods and services cost only what they were worth, they and
their sources would fail in equally short order. It happens all the
time, every day. Bose is particularly good at surviving in a world
where audio in general and US-based audio in particular is severely
threatened by Pacific Rim amalgamation. Bose supports a pretty large
infrastructure in the US - something not to be sneezed at after all.
That they pander to the ignorant who also happen to have a few more
bucks than they need at the moment is just fine. Fleecing suckers is
an American Tradition that started with Erikson and continues to this
day, and will continue to the end of time.

Last note on this subject: Jimmy Carter was an honest man... and a
near-absolute failure as a President and politican.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

 

[Arfa Daily]

Thank you for your sensible comments and observations, Peter.

I mean no offense to Peter, but I find his views no more sensible than
mine.

Mr. Daily, it is NOT "all just opinion". This is an "I don't give a damn"
way of looking at life, and I detest it.

There is a significant difference between "rectal orifice" opinion, and
informed opinion. I have some experience in live recording, and have a
good
sense of what does and doesn't sound "life-like". My opinion is an
informed
one. Peter, I'm sure, has a critical ear and a lot of listening
experience,
and though he may coyly dismiss his opinions, I'm sure they are more
"sensible" than those of the average listener.

And I repair the stuff all of the time, so why is my opinion (strange that
you now apparently have one rather than an absolute conviction based on your
perceived absolute truth) any less valid or "informed" than yours - or
indeed, Peter's ? Do you honestly believe, given the exchanges that we have
had, and given the continuous help and advice that I provide to try assist
repair-question posters on here, that I am a "Don't give a damn" person ? In
fact, what do you actually know of my life at all to detest ? I find that
remark deeply offensive.

And Peter's views *are* more sensible (to normal people) than yours, because
they are open, whilst yours are 'reasoned' within a very tight constraint as
to what you consider to be fully factual truth. Peter also recognises what
an "opinion" is, but this seems to be a concept which escapes you.

Anyway, once again, I am allowing myself to be dragged down into another of
your whirpool arguments, which wasn't the intention of re-opening the
thread. Suffice to say that I am unable to accept your views as reasoned and
presented. If you want to do something about Bose being liars and deceivers
of the public, then go ahead and do as I suggested previously. If not, then
your strength of feeling and conviction on the subject has no firm basis,
and as such, anything that you say on the matter, cannot be taken as valid
input.

Arfa

 

[clifto]

Last note on this subject: Jimmy Carter was an honest man... and a
near-absolute failure as a President and politican.

The recent brouhaha about him plagiarizing maps for his book kinda lends
some doubt to any claim to honesty he might have had.

 

[Mark D. Zacharias]

And I repair the stuff all of the time, so why is my opinion (strange that
you now apparently have one rather than an absolute conviction based on
your perceived absolute truth) any less valid or "informed" than yours -
or indeed, Peter's ? Do you honestly believe, given the exchanges that we
have had, and given the continuous help and advice that I provide to try
assist repair-question posters on here, that I am a "Don't give a damn"
person ? In fact, what do you actually know of my life at all to detest ?
I find that remark deeply offensive.

And Peter's views *are* more sensible (to normal people) than yours,
because they are open, whilst yours are 'reasoned' within a very tight
constraint as to what you consider to be fully factual truth. Peter also
recognises what an "opinion" is, but this seems to be a concept which
escapes you.

Anyway, once again, I am allowing myself to be dragged down into another
of your whirpool arguments, which wasn't the intention of re-opening the
thread. Suffice to say that I am unable to accept your views as reasoned
and presented. If you want to do something about Bose being liars and
deceivers of the public, then go ahead and do as I suggested previously.
If not, then your strength of feeling and conviction on the subject has no
firm basis, and as such, anything that you say on the matter, cannot be
taken as valid input.

Arfa

Bose: Always good for a flame-war, eh?

It's not that the quality is so bad, just overpriced like crazy. And I
wouldn't say they're accurate reproducers of music, just a valid "niche"
product.
I do despise their latest Wave models with the lack of ANY function buttons,
everything on a crappy credit-card remote...

Mark Z.

 

[Arfa Daily]

Bose: Always good for a flame-war, eh?

It's not that the quality is so bad, just overpriced like crazy. And I
wouldn't say they're accurate reproducers of music, just a valid "niche"
product.
I do despise their latest Wave models with the lack of ANY function
buttons, everything on a crappy credit-card remote...

Mark Z.

Hi Mark

I don't disagree with most of what you say. They are not particularly good
value for money, although they are well built, generally pretty reliable,
and well backed up service-wise, which are all things that have to be
factored into the equation, when deciding what exactly represents 'value'.
As far as them being accurate reproducers of music, I think it depends to
some extent as to what genre of music you are trying to reproduce, and what
you are trying to compare them to. I happen to think that they do a pretty
fair job on mainstream 'popular' music, compared to other items of similar
size and functionality, and do a creditable job of holding their own against
bigger systems from other manufacturers, but I consider it silly to start
saying, like some on here do, that they don't compare to multi-thousand
dollar systems with speakers that cost more than a small car, just because
Bose imply in their advertising that they can rival big(ger) systems. I
don't suppose that they were considering that anybody would be foolish
enough to make such unrealistic comparisons, either ...

As you say, it fills a niche market for people with enough money to spend,
by their own free choice, on a product that they feel fills their needs, or
indeed lifestyle choices. As I said before, I don't happen to think that a
Ferrari is very good at getting you from A to B in safety and comfort, but
there are people who own them as a main car, and are very *happy* with the
fact that they own an overpriced 'name'. It's no different from owning a
Bose.

As far as a lack of controls on the actual unit goes, I think that is more
of a 'lifestyle' thing than anything else. I mean, be honest, when was the
last time that you saw anything more than a master on / off button on a TV
set, or anything other than the most basic controls, if any, on a DVD player
or recorder. Even a lot of AV amplifiers have had little other than a master
volume control on them for some time now. I do take your point though. It
reminds me of that brilliantly funny Emo standup (he was actually sitting
down as I recall) routine where he is showing his new pocket TV to the
audience. He then holds it at arms length, so that he can demonstrate the
remote control that it comes with... Priceless !

Anyway, I'm sure that you, as indeed most of the others on here, understand
my position on all of this. As you say, mention of Bose is always good for a
'flame-y' thread, but it always seems to be the same couple of people that
make it so, and I was just interested in why it should be. I say again, I
have no particular affiliation to Bose, and neither particularly like nor
dislike their products. They perform better than some, not as well as
others. As a service engineer, I find them among the best for build quality,
servicability, quality of service information, and factory service backup. I
don't believe that as a company they are out and out liars to the public,
but I will accept that their advertising material and pitch blurb is - how
shall we say - 'rosy' ? The fact that they are protective of their products,
and sell through main dealers or own shops, and have a particular way that
they like their systems presented and marketed, is not lying by preventing
comparison. It is just effective sales strategy. In much the same way, you
will have a hard time, for instance, trying to compare a Ferrari to a Lambo
at the same garage.

And please, William, this is a reply to Mark's points, and doesn't require
another endless list of 'proofs' to show me how, if I think about it some
more, I am wrong in everything that I say.

Arfa

 

[Ron(UK)]

mention of Bose is always good for a
'flame-y' thread, but it always seems to be the same couple of people that
make it so,

The same happens on the Pro.Live-sound group where general opinion
amongs't pro's is that Bose gear 'sucks' Every now and then some
newcomer will ask a question about Bose speakers and ignites a flamefest
of epic proportions. Usually it`s because someone spent his hard earned
cash on Bose thinking he bought 'the best' and finds it doesn't do what
he expected it to do.

I don't have an opinion on the Wave radio btw.

Ron(UK)

 

[William Sommerwerck]

I happen to think that they do a pretty fair job on mainstream 'popular'
music, compared to other items of similar size and functionality, and
do a creditable job of holding their own against bigger systems from
other manufacturers...

That's probably not a tenable view. The single-piece CSW system I mentioned
would probably beat the Wave, but not having heard them together, I'm not
sure. The CSW certainly has the advantage of being larger and having a
separate, separately driven woofer.

As a classical listener, I'm highly critical of sound quality. I assume
serious jazz listeners would be comparably critical.

...but I consider it silly to start saying, like some on here do, that
they don't compare to multi-thousand dollar systems with speakers
that cost more than a small car, just because Bose imply in their
advertising that they can rival big(ger) systems.

Bose doesn't imply -- they say it outright. Which is one of my gripes.

I don't suppose that they were considering that anybody would be
foolish enough to make such unrealistic comparisons, either ...

This is also one of the points of contention. Granted, Bose products are
squarely aimed at people who _don't_ want to get involved in choosing and
setting up a component system. There's nothing wrong with this. But Bose's
advertising and dealer policies are aimed at making sure that such a
comparison never occurs.

It's worth noting that Bang & Olufsen makes products aimed at much the same
market as Bose. I haven't recently looked at their prices to see how they
compare with separate components. But I've never heard anyone accuse B&O
products of being overpriced mediocrities. (Pricey, perhaps...)

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/page.asp?id=34

Might I ask a blunt question? If you ran a retail store, would you sell
indifferent, overpriced products just because they had a good profit margin
and customers were presold on them? I wouldn't, and I don't think you would,
either.

As you say, it fills a niche market for people with enough money
to spend, by their own free choice, on a product that they feel fills
their needs, or indeed lifestyle choices.

One of the issues here is whether one should attempt to force a company to
stop lying about a product to customers who don't really _care_ they're
being lied to.

As to whether the purchase of a Bose product is a free choice... If people
were less gullible, there would be less dishonest advertising.

I will call Cambridge SoundWorks Monday and complain about their stooping to
Bose's level. (It's wrong to gripe about one firm while ignoring the
qualitatively identical behavior of another.) Indeed, if CSW were _honest_
about the quality of their product, they could turn it to their marketing
advantage, by implicitly calling Bose a liar.

As far as a lack of controls on the actual unit goes, I think that
is more of a 'lifestyle" thing than anything else.

It's nice for people who are afraid of knobs and switches. But much
electronic equipment -- including high-end audiophile stuff -- has few
front-panel controls. There are too many features and options for dedicated
controls -- not to mention the high cost of implementing them.

Anyway, I'm sure that you, as indeed most of the others on here,
understand my position on all of this.

I understand your position very well! I just vehemently disagree with it.

I don't believe that as a company they are out and out liars to the
public, but I will accept that their advertising material and pitch blurb
is -- how shall we say -- "rosy"?

It all depends on how you define lying. Strictly speaking, a lie is a
conscious untruth. But (to me), ignorance of whether what you say is correct
is no excuse.

The lies started with the 2201. Dr. Bose was not a particularly perceptive
listener. He did not do his homework and came to the wrong conclusions.

The fact that they are protective of their products, and sell through
main dealers or own shops, and have a particular way that they like
their systems presented and marketed, is not lying by preventing
comparison. It is just effective sales strategy.

This is a complex issue that can't easily be covered in a few paragraphs,
but I'll try.

Businesses have to make money to stay in business. Not surprisingly, they
want to make the most money with the least effort. If a manufacturer offers
you a profitable product that's more or less pre-sold to the customer, that
few other stores carry so you won't be under much pressure to discount it,
you're likely to want to carry it.

But you have to dance with the Devil. In exchange for all these advantages,
you're often forced to "push" the product on an unwilling customer, or demo
it in ways that don't allow the customer to make a fair comparison.

I once worked for a store that sold Audio Research and Magnepan. In exchange
for an exclusive franchise in the Philadelphia area, we were pretty much
obliged to shove these products down the customers' throats. I had no
problem "encouraging" the purchase of ARC products, as they were very good,
but I did not like Magneplanars (nor the Protestant fundamentalists who
manufactured them). I wanted to help customers find what they liked, not
talk them into buying something they weren't altogether enthusiastic about.

A sale is a social transaction. One of the reasons a customer chooses to buy
an expensive audio system is that they trust the salesperson. I would prefer
to tell the customer how I honestly feel about a product * than tell them
what I need to make my commission.

When I joined Tau Beta Pi, the American engineering fraternity, I promised
that "my word would be the same to buyer and seller". I see nothing wrong
with that.

* Several customers complimented me to my boss about my honesty.

In much the same way, you will have a hard time, for instance, trying to
compare a Ferrari to a Lambo at the same garage.

But one doesn't judge autos in the same way one judges sound reproduction.

And please, William, this is a reply to Mark's points, and doesn't require
another endless list of 'proofs' to show me how, if I think about it some
more, I am wrong in everything that I say.

It's not your facts as much as it is your attitude.

 

[Arfa Daily]

That's probably not a tenable view. The single-piece CSW system I
mentioned
would probably beat the Wave, but not having heard them together, I'm not
sure. The CSW certainly has the advantage of being larger and having a
separate, separately driven woofer.

As a classical listener, I'm highly critical of sound quality. I assume
serious jazz listeners would be comparably critical.



Bose doesn't imply -- they say it outright. Which is one of my gripes.



This is also one of the points of contention. Granted, Bose products are
squarely aimed at people who _don't_ want to get involved in choosing and
setting up a component system. There's nothing wrong with this. But Bose's
advertising and dealer policies are aimed at making sure that such a
comparison never occurs.

It's worth noting that Bang & Olufsen makes products aimed at much the
same
market as Bose. I haven't recently looked at their prices to see how they
compare with separate components. But I've never heard anyone accuse B&O
products of being overpriced mediocrities. (Pricey, perhaps...)

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/page.asp?id=34

Might I ask a blunt question? If you ran a retail store, would you sell
indifferent, overpriced products just because they had a good profit
margin
and customers were presold on them? I wouldn't, and I don't think you
would,
either.



One of the issues here is whether one should attempt to force a company to
stop lying about a product to customers who don't really _care_ they're
being lied to.

As to whether the purchase of a Bose product is a free choice... If people
were less gullible, there would be less dishonest advertising.

I will call Cambridge SoundWorks Monday and complain about their stooping
to
Bose's level. (It's wrong to gripe about one firm while ignoring the
qualitatively identical behavior of another.) Indeed, if CSW were _honest_
about the quality of their product, they could turn it to their marketing
advantage, by implicitly calling Bose a liar.



It's nice for people who are afraid of knobs and switches. But much
electronic equipment -- including high-end audiophile stuff -- has few
front-panel controls. There are too many features and options for
dedicated
controls -- not to mention the high cost of implementing them.



I understand your position very well! I just vehemently disagree with it.



It all depends on how you define lying. Strictly speaking, a lie is a
conscious untruth. But (to me), ignorance of whether what you say is
correct
is no excuse.

The lies started with the 2201. Dr. Bose was not a particularly perceptive
listener. He did not do his homework and came to the wrong conclusions.



This is a complex issue that can't easily be covered in a few paragraphs,
but I'll try.

Businesses have to make money to stay in business. Not surprisingly, they
want to make the most money with the least effort. If a manufacturer
offers
you a profitable product that's more or less pre-sold to the customer,
that
few other stores carry so you won't be under much pressure to discount it,
you're likely to want to carry it.

But you have to dance with the Devil. In exchange for all these
advantages,
you're often forced to "push" the product on an unwilling customer, or
demo
it in ways that don't allow the customer to make a fair comparison.

I once worked for a store that sold Audio Research and Magnepan. In
exchange
for an exclusive franchise in the Philadelphia area, we were pretty much
obliged to shove these products down the customers' throats. I had no
problem "encouraging" the purchase of ARC products, as they were very
good,
but I did not like Magneplanars (nor the Protestant fundamentalists who
manufactured them). I wanted to help customers find what they liked, not
talk them into buying something they weren't altogether enthusiastic
about.

A sale is a social transaction. One of the reasons a customer chooses to
buy
an expensive audio system is that they trust the salesperson. I would
prefer
to tell the customer how I honestly feel about a product * than tell them
what I need to make my commission.

When I joined Tau Beta Pi, the American engineering fraternity, I promised
that "my word would be the same to buyer and seller". I see nothing wrong
with that.

* Several customers complimented me to my boss about my honesty.



But one doesn't judge autos in the same way one judges sound reproduction.



It's not your facts as much as it is your attitude.

Oh puleeeese ....

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

Oh puleeeese ....

Arfa

You know what ? You wanna question my attitude. Well here's some for you to
get your teeth into. For the most part, I'm a pretty easy going guy - up to
a point. I will have a discussion with sensible real world people, who hold
sensible real world opinions, for as long as they want to keep talking.
That's sensible people, not you. I have come across your type, who are
endlessly reasonable, and never get mad, and put across that same bland
superiority thing, many times in my long and varied career, and the end
result is always the same. Well let me tell you where I'm at with you now.
The 'point' has been reached. If you were actually here in front of me now,
I would be making an arse of myself by jumping up and down, red in the face,
screaming SHUT UP - SHUT UP - SHUT THE F*** UP !!!!!!!!!! at you, and you,
I'm sure, would be standing there with that po-faced "poor old thing"
indulgent half-smile on your face, thinking how bloody superior you are.

If that makes you superior, which I'm sure you'll rush now to deny, then
sobeit. I'm just a poor old norm, and you're a god.

So read this, and understand it well. I have no further interest in you, or
anything you have to say, most of which I consider to be senseless
self-absorbed crap anyway. If you are prepared to phone Cambridge SW to tell
them not to stoop to Bose's level, have the bollocks to phone Bose, and tell
them to stop lying. No ? I didn't think so. Empty vessels make the most
noise, as they say.

Arfa

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Mr. Daily, I had had my final say and had stopped arguing this issue until
you brought it up again a few days ago.

I learned -- not that many years ago -- on UseNet -- that there's no point
in screaming or yelling at people. And believe me, I did a lot in my day. It
finally got through my thick skull that, regardless of whether I was right
or wrong, most other people aren't interested in the truth -- that is, they
lack the ability to step back and self-criticize.

I know exactly the kind of "passive-agressive" person you're talking about.
I'm not that sort of person.

You need to start thinking about why you get so twisted out of line when
people don't agree with you -- and worse, why you consider your points of
view necessarily correct, and those of people who disagree necessarily
wrong.

By the way, I _will_ call Bose. I'll report back on what I find. (Note that
it's highly unlikely I'll be able to get to anyone high-up in marketing at
Bose. The odds are better at CSW.)

 

[Smitty Two]

Mr. Daily, I had had my final say and had stopped arguing this issue until
you brought it up again a few days ago.

I learned -- not that many years ago -- on UseNet -- that there's no point
in screaming or yelling at people. And believe me, I did a lot in my day. It
finally got through my thick skull that, regardless of whether I was right
or wrong, most other people aren't interested in the truth -- that is, they
lack the ability to step back and self-criticize.

I know exactly the kind of "passive-agressive" person you're talking about.
I'm not that sort of person.

You need to start thinking about why you get so twisted out of line when
people don't agree with you -- and worse, why you consider your points of
view necessarily correct, and those of people who disagree necessarily
wrong.

By the way, I _will_ call Bose. I'll report back on what I find. (Note that
it's highly unlikely I'll be able to get to anyone high-up in marketing at
Bose. The odds are better at CSW.)

William, protest all you want, spout about your maturity and wisdom and
self-knowledge all you want, you are still an arrogant, sanctimonious
hypocrite. I've seen your ramblings elsewhere, and your superiority
complex is astounding.

You offered to "name drop" about the myriad folks who adore you. In
s.e.r., we don't care whether you've tapped toes with Larry Craig
himself. You are judged only on your behavior in this room, and while
Arfa is about as gentlemanly as a man could be, you are nothing short of
an ass. Now STFU.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

You offered to "name drop" about the myriad folks who adore you.
In s.e.r., we don't care whether you've tapped toes with Larry Craig
himself. You are judged only on your behavior in this room, and
while Arfa is about as gentlemanly as a man could be, you are
nothing short of an ass. Now STFU.

Arfa is hardly a gentleman. He has no understanding of how to intelligently
argue, and he seems to be devoid of any self-critical sense. All he can is
spout and spume when people disagree with him. That's hardly courteous or
smart.

I used to think I was smarter than anybody else, and gradually learned I
sure as hell _wasn't_. Then I started meeting people in UseNet, and
discovered something. I'm not smart at all -- but most people are
insufferably stupid.

 

[Arfa Daily]

Arfa is hardly a gentleman. He has no understanding of how to
intelligently
argue, and he seems to be devoid of any self-critical sense. All he can is
spout and spume when people disagree with him. That's hardly courteous or
smart.

Now, you have really crossed the line. So hear this. F**k right off back
under whatever stone you call home. You are, as Smitty rightly says, a
sanctimonious TWAT. I really hope you do try it on with Bose, and I REALLY
hope that they take the exception to you that you rightly deserve, and that
they set their corporate legal department on you, and wipe you out out of
existence.

Your head is so far up your own arse, that you must be looking out of your
mouth. When you discovered that you weren't smarter than everybody else, it
must have been one of those real 'revelation moments'. What a pity it didn't
last. However, when you realised that most people were insufferably stupid,
I hope you included yourself as top of the tree, as you are the positive
epitomy of both words.

The only person I have a problem with disagreeing with me is YOU. Can you
not see that you are the very worst there is at this ? Because you have
worked out all your stupidly conceived 'proofs', you utterly reject anyone
elses opinion - oops, silly me, I've used that 'invalid' word again.

When I reopened the thread, it was not aimed at you. I had hoped that you
had cleared off to harass some other group, but no, there you were again,
sticking your oar in. You had already put your views over and over again,
with your endless neatly numerated lists, and I really didn't want to hear
any more from you, as I suspect most people on here that are interested in a
sensible converstaion, didn't. But you just couldn't resist could you ?
Straight back in there with another of your inflamatory comments.

I really, REALLY pity your friends and relations and co-workers. You must be
the most royal pain in the arse to live and work with, that there could
possibly be.

And no, I'm neither drunk, nor under the influence of drugs. I'm just
TOTALLY PISSED with you.

Arfa