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Butter, again

B

Bill 2

Jan 1, 1970
0
The Real Bev said:
Older refrigerators like my mom's 197x model have a butter compartment
which
is warmer than the rest of the refrigerator. Must be some health
department
ruling that keeps them from being made now.

The mills of god...

My 1977 model had a butter heater compartment. Seemed kind of wasteful
having a heater in the cooled compartment.
 
B

Bill 2

Jan 1, 1970
0
~^Johnny^~ said:
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Margarine is worse. Even the new "no trans-fat" spreads are made of
highly refined oils, and chemicals galore. Highly processed
polyunsaturates are just as bad as hydrogenated oils.

But never mind butter... got milk? ;->

Think of all the steroids they feed the cows.
 
D

Dave Hinz

Jan 1, 1970
0
You will never again have to worry about the consistency of butter, if you
ban it from your kitchen. Butter is bad for your health.

Well, I've got to die from something; it might as well be food that I
like.
Problem solved

Well, it might not make me live longer, but it would certainly seem like
it. Me, I'll keep eating butter and all the other stuff I feel like,
and given that my total cholesterol is in the 150's, apparently I'm not
hurting as a result of enjoying it.

Oh, I drink whole milk too. Just so you know. Nothing better than
nearly-ice-cold whole milk.

Dave Hinz
 
D

Dave Hinz

Jan 1, 1970
0
Think of all the steroids they feed the cows.

Think of providing a cite to a credible, non-alarmist-nutjob-whacko
site.
 
B

Barbara Bomberger

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, part of the obvious difference is that I just want enough
for a single slice of toast or slice of bread at a time.

Really doesnt work very well for that situation.

And since summer doesnt work left out either,
makes more sense to have a dedicated butter
temp fridge that both heats and cools fully auto.

Well, I have some small pottery crocks that are butter dishes, that we
leave out all the time. Could you do something like that only fill it
half full and then nuke it for a few secs

The crock works great in the summer, I dont use a plate any more
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
My 1977 model had a butter heater compartment. Seemed kind of wasteful having
a heater in the cooled compartment.

Sure, but it is the most efficient way to keep butter at the correct temp
and if the compartment is well insulated, it shouldnt take much power.

The main advantage of having it in the fridge
is that the same thing works year round.

And is going to be more efficient than a dedicated butter fridge/warmer.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well, I have some small pottery crocks that are butter dishes,
that we leave out all the time. Could you do something like that
only fill it half full and then nuke it for a few secs

I havent found that nuking butter works very well. For some
reason it goes runny inside before the outside is soft enough
to be spreadable on bread. I must admit that I havent carefully
tried all power and defrost combinations on the microwave tho.
And that isnt likely to be all that viable either since the block
of butter will be getting smaller every day till its gone.

Looks like it will be a lot simpler to just have a simple
heater in an insulated container in the fridge instead.
The crock works great in the summer, I dont use a plate any more

Yeah, but like I said, its much too hot here for that to be viable.

Even less with a simple heater in an insulated
container for the butter in the fridge.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Vatunz said:
Better warn those who've never experienced it to spread it thin.
About 10% of peanut butter proportions is enough.
Yeah i thought of the bulb but also thought you may have
considered using some resistance wire for a heater element.

Yeah, after thinking about it more since I posted that, a power
resistor, the ceramic rectangular type, would be much more viable.
Much easier to mount and the surface temp would be better too.
In hindsight a bulb is vastly easier and is a simple
job to swap wattages to achieve the ideal temp..

Yeah, tho I might well thermostat it properly,
those onewire thermostat ics dont cost much.
I suppose that's why i rarely get the treat of butter.
Don't worry there must be plenty of others who want to. ;)

True.
 
D

Dave Hinz

Jan 1, 1970
0
Spoken by one who can't work out how to butter toast.
Pathetic.

I think Victor takes game, set, and match on that one.
 
T

The Real Bev

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill said:
My 1977 model had a butter heater compartment. Seemed kind of wasteful
having a heater in the cooled compartment.

Cadillacs (at least the 1978 POS that I had) run the heater and AC
simultaneously and mix the output to your desires. If that isn't insane I
don't know what is.

--
Cheers, Bev
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I love to go down to the schoolyard and watch all the
little children jump up and down and run around yelling and
screaming...They don't know I'm only using blanks." --Emo
 
D

Dave Hinz

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cadillacs (at least the 1978 POS that I had) run the heater and AC
simultaneously and mix the output to your desires. If that isn't insane I
don't know what is.

Actually, there's some logic there. Older A/C compressors had a habit
of drying out if not used over a whole season. The seals didn't get the
lubricant on them, and they'd leak.

Also, even with modern components, one thing you want to do in the
winter is to get rid of the fog on the inside of the windows. The A/C
does an admirable job of reducing that humidity.

Dave "not that I'm defending G.M. here; don't get me wrong" Hinz
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
Logan Shaw said:
Rod Speed wrote
What about making the butter compartment sort of an airlock between the fridge
and the outside?

You dont really need an airlock. My 1950s fridge already
has a butter compartment, but it doesnt work very well,
basically because they attempt to do the temp in there
using a relatively primitive approach of a plastic door on it.

It wouldnt be hard to replace that with something decently
insulating with polystyrene foam instead, and a small heater.
Then have motorized shutters that open on either side (the fridge side or the
outside) if the butter compartment gets either too cold (open shutter to
outside) or too hot (open shutter to fridge)?

I'd rather a decent modern thermostat control on the heater.

Completely trivial to do with the onewire thermostat ic.
It seems better than running a heater when relatively warm air from the
outside is available for free most of the time.

True, but its easier to do with a simple heater than mechanically
modify the fridge when its just got one door to the outside.

Probably best to keep it outside the fridge in winter,
and only inside the fridge in summer when the butter
ends up at too high a temp outside on the benchtop.

And I agree with the other comment someone else made about
butter getting rancid too quickly in summer out of the fridge. Specially
with the relatively low rate at which the butter is consumed here.
 
J

~^Johnny^~

Jan 1, 1970
0
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I think Victor takes game, set, and match on that one.

The only love Mr. Speed realizes. Serves him right.
Would stand up in any court.


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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~
 
J

~^Johnny^~

Jan 1, 1970
0
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Cadillacs (at least the 1978 POS that I had) run the heater and AC
simultaneously and mix the output to your desires. If that isn't
insane I don't know what is.


Well, no. In any refrigeration, waste heat is produced. Recycling
some of this waste to the comfort zone is more efficient than pumping
it all outside.

It's hard to visualize, since the waste heat is taken from the
engine cooling system, until you realize that A/C condenser heat is
exhausted over the engine's radiator, adding to its load.


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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~
 
J

~^Johnny^~

Jan 1, 1970
0
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What about making the butter compartment sort of an airlock between
the fridge and the outside? Then have motorized shutters that open
on either side (the fridge side or the outside) if the butter
compartment gets either too cold (open shutter to outside) or too
hot (open shutter to fridge)? It seems better than running a heater
when relatively warm air from the outside is available for free most
of the time.

This scheme actually uses the compressor to generate the offset,
without any auxiliary heat. This has the same drawback as hot gas
defrost vs electric defrost, in that it uses the system. Also, the
added moving parts would be disadvantageous.



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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining
- JFK
~~~~~~~~
 
B

Bill 2

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cadillacs (at least the 1978 POS that I had) run the heater and AC
simultaneously and mix the output to your desires. If that isn't insane I
don't know what is.

It isn't really insane since the A/C compressor will work at a 100% duty
cycle (which even if it is slightly too cold, will help with
dehumidification). The heater just draws heat from the ample supply of hot
coolant cycling through the system, it's not like it adds to the engine
load.

With most modern cars when you turn on the front defroster, the car will
engage the air conditioning (as long as outside temperature isn't too cold),
even if you turn the "temperature" knob up to full hot.

If the butter warmer or door seal heater use heat from the condenser coil,
it isn't as wasteful as a separate resistive heater. My fridge was of the
latter design.
 
T

The Real Bev

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave said:
Actually, there's some logic there. Older A/C compressors had a habit
of drying out if not used over a whole season. The seals didn't get the
lubricant on them, and they'd leak.

That's why everybody knew they should turn their AC and heater on once a month
during their off-seasons. The insanity of making the AC fight the heater on a
105-degree day seems enormous.
Also, even with modern components, one thing you want to do in the
winter is to get rid of the fog on the inside of the windows. The A/C
does an admirable job of reducing that humidity.

This is SoCal. To get rid of the fog we open the windows. At least I do.
Dave "not that I'm defending G.M. here; don't get me wrong" Hinz

They probably all do it. If it weren't for crap like that we'd be FREE of
dependence on middle-eastern oil.
 
R

Rod Speed

Jan 1, 1970
0
Bill 2 said:
It isn't really insane since the A/C compressor will work at a 100%
duty cycle (which even if it is slightly too cold, will help with
dehumidification). The heater just draws heat from the ample supply
of hot coolant cycling through the system, it's not like it adds to
the engine load.

With most modern cars when you turn on the front defroster, the car
will engage the air conditioning (as long as outside temperature
isn't too cold), even if you turn the "temperature" knob up to full
hot.
If the butter warmer or door seal heater use heat from the condenser coil, it
isn't as wasteful as a separate resistive heater.

A resistive heater doesnt have to be 'wasteful' as long as the
butter compartment is well insulated and you're only replacing
the heat the leaks out past the insulation to the inside of the fridge.
My fridge was of the latter design.

Overkill for the butter compartment if it was designed properly.
 
T

The Real Bev

Jan 1, 1970
0
~^Johnny^~ said:
Well, no. In any refrigeration, waste heat is produced. Recycling
some of this waste to the comfort zone is more efficient than pumping
it all outside.

So in order to make the AC run easier we pump its waste heat into the
passenger compartment, which we are trying to cool, so the Ac has to run
harder to get rid of the excess heat. I can see the pointy-haired boss trying
to explain this to Alice, who crushes him with her fist of death...
It's hard to visualize, since the waste heat is taken from the
engine cooling system, until you realize that A/C condenser heat is
exhausted over the engine's radiator, adding to its load.

The car blew a rod out through the pan on the way back from Las Vegas.
Somehow it all seems to make sense now -- a sort of suicide brought on by
internal unresolvable conflict between the heating system and the air
conditioner. We saw a lot of that on Star Trek.
 
G

Gordon Richmond

Jan 1, 1970
0
"The car blew a rod out through the pan on the way back from Las
Vegas.
Somehow it all seems to make sense now -- a sort of suicide brought
on by
internal unresolvable conflict between the heating system and the air
conditioner. We saw a lot of that on Star Trek."

Naw, it probably threw a rod because you, in your zeal to deprive the
nasty great oil companies of their fair share of your financial
resources, neglected to put oil in the crankcase. :>)

Seriously, it's not really that the heater and the A/C are "fighting"
one another. Waste heat from the engine's cooling system is used to
warm up cold, dehumidified air from the A/C evaporator to a
comfortable temperature. At a negligible increase in fuel consumption
over running the refrigeration component alone.

Gordon Richmond
 
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