Can you help me develop my invention?

[donkey]

looks like nan was spamming for a website poor.... one website constantly on a few links.

 

[CocaCola]

There is the 'locate', which is a checking in mode and is quoted at 9 months working life for this mode and 'alert' mode which is the 2 month estimate.

I fail to see those run numbers on their site it says 2-5 months in locate and hints at much shorter if in alert mode... From what I gather in 'locate' mode you can adjust the ping frequency from 10 seconds to 1 hour between pings... That 9 month run time (if valid) is certainly an estimate with the ping only happening every hour... So if we work the math again, 1 ping an hour is 24 pings a day, or about 6480 pings over the course of 9 months... Again we are at Apple to Oranges with you wanting to do 25200 pings a day, you still won't even get one days worth of run time, maybe a few hours...

Batteries have a limited amount of power, if you are transmitting you are using said power, and you will gobble up coin or button cells limited power in no time flat... There are ways to stretch this out but as I said your requirements and what is necessary to stretch run time out are at opposite ends of the scale... This is a physical limitation and has been a BIG hold up on miniaturization of many devices... We have improved batteries to some degree, and we have drastically improved the power requirements of many circuits, but there are still some rules and physical barriers that can't be broken with our current understandings and abilities...

 

[donkey]

anyway I found a link to something that appears to be the loc8tor system.

that is apparently its insides.... having said thatwe know it has 2 ic's... but don't know what sort... we know it has other components but don't know how they go together... best bet is to figure outwhat you need.... cos we have no idea.. and then see if the loc8tor system can be modified

 

[donkey]

poorfornow just onequestion.. you say it needs to recieve signals 4 times aday... is this at a set time???
if so we could possibly have the unit shut down for say 5hours 55minutes on for 5minutes detecting for signal every 2secondsthen off again saving a crap load of battery.
another thing is unless yougive us more info we are kinda stuck. you keep referencing loc8torbut if that worksthen heck mod it. if you need something totally different then you have to give us more info

 

[CocaCola]

having said thatwe know it has 2 ic's... but don't know what sort...

A micro and a radio chip likely... The radio chip could have other integrated stuff, like a compose or what not to aid in location... That is likely the one they defaced to make it a little harder to identify as it's likely an over the counter chip... With a unit in hand and a little research you can likely identify the chip in a few hours time, same with the other chip that isn't defaced...

 

[poorfornow]

I fail to see those run numbers on their site it says 2-5 months in locate and hints at much shorter if in alert mode... From what I gather in 'locate' mode you can adjust the ping frequency from 10 seconds to 1 hour between pings... That 9 month run time (if valid) is certainly an estimate with the ping only happening every hour... So if we work the math again, 1 ping an hour is 24 pings a day, or about 6480 pings over the course of 9 months... Again we are at Apple to Oranges with you wanting to do 25200 pings a day, you still won't even get one days worth of run time, maybe a few hours...

Batteries have a limited amount of power, if you are transmitting you are using said power, and you will gobble up coin or button cells limited power in no time flat... There are ways to stretch this out but as I said your requirements and what is necessary to stretch run time out are at opposite ends of the scale... This is a physical limitation and has been a BIG hold up on miniaturization of many devices... We have improved batteries to some degree, and we have drastically improved the power requirements of many circuits, but there are still some rules and physical barriers that can't be broken with our current understandings and abilities...

Hi Cocacola,

Thanks for your time once more.

If we take the battery life estimates from this site and focus on the 'locate' battery life, we should realise two things. Firstly a 'locate' event may be quite a power hungry event, as it seems to involve searching for some time while exchanging signals, together with the tag emitting a beep signal and a flashing/constant led. Secondly, because of the distances that are required in certainly pet find scenarios, the battery power required to send those signals may be more than I would require.

I would require circa 4 random simple contacts with my device per day. These should not equate to the amount of power for 4 'locate' contacts.

The 9 month 'locate' battery life figure I must have found somewhere but I can accept that I may be mistaken considering you have directly referenced the Loc8tor site.

 

[poorfornow]

A micro and a radio chip likely... The radio chip could have other integrated stuff, like a compose or what not to aid in location... That is likely the one they defaced to make it a little harder to identify as it's likely an over the counter chip... With a unit in hand and a little research you can likely identify the chip in a few hours time, same with the other chip that isn't defaced...

This website: http://amal.net/?p=60 talks a little about the smaller ic in the tag. He calls it a PIC 16F636 . At this site they quote a gps magazine article stating 2-9 month battery life.

 

[poorfornow]

poorfornow just onequestion.. you say it needs to recieve signals 4 times aday... is this at a set time???
if so we could possibly have the unit shut down for say 5hours 55minutes on for 5minutes detecting for signal every 2secondsthen off again saving a crap load of battery.
another thing is unless yougive us more info we are kinda stuck. you keep referencing loc8torbut if that worksthen heck mod it. if you need something totally different then you have to give us more info

Hi Donkey,

Sorry the signals will be random. I am not sure whether I would require something totally different from the loc8tor system. I am still trying to determine how it works and therefore whether it might meet my requirements. I am prepared for the final answer being that battery life will not allow me to go forward with at least the prime idea I had in mind, but would not cancel extensions to it.

I still do not believe that broadcasting a potential money making invention would be a good idea in terms of possible future patenting potential nor avoiding chances of the idea being copied and marketed before me.

 

[CocaCola]

we should realise two things.

"...a little knowledge is apt to puff up, and make men giddy, but a greater share of it will set them right, and bring them to low and humble thoughts of themselves."

To be blunt, you are arguing small points and ignoring the bigger issues in the perimeters you have laid out, you continue to compare Apple to Oranges as if they are equal, they simply are not...

 

[donkey]

I am still trying to determine how it works

this is our biggest hurdle. you are not willing to give us info to help you make an informed decision and you still haven't got the whole picture yourself yet. to put it simply if I was building a car and I was debating between a high performance hog that went from 0-100 in 0.0000001 seconds and a car that hhas fuel economy so good that a tank of gas would last a month of continuous driving I would not be able to get any help until I have sorted out that simple part... yes you want a car... but what sort?
take some time and figure out your requirements.... figure out each step using a flow chart and pics... even if its in paint. think about every aspect of what you are doing. and then come back to us and let us know the picture so we can help you out.
we can help educate you on how things works, limitations to certain devices, best people to speak to about design and manufacture (my vote is coca cola he is always helpful and does it for a living) etc etc etc.... what we can't do is figure out what you are trying to build unless you have it set out in your head and you then tell us.

 

[donkey]

just an addition here. poorfornow I work security while on a patrol of a construction site I noticed I was walking long distances to monitor this site. I came up with a simple sensor that would detect motion on the temporary fencing, a break in said fenceline(they are panels pretty much which slot together)and to top it of I use fishing wire accross the top to detect if someone was actually jumping the fence.

this idea was already improved when I did my research to find out someone was using optical fibre to do this. their system looks a whole lot better than mine. I have made alot of head way as my system costs alot less but as the other companies use a better system I highly doubt I will ever be rich from it.

the thing I am trying to get through here is that while in the design phase I was very secretive with this forum, however when they needed to know more the information was given. they help out on the electronic stuff.

all we know of your device is that you wantit to recieve data from a phone for on/off function.... but if you told us more like what its hooking up to then we could possibly show you a way to wire it to the device that you are turning on/off and negate the need for batteries all together.... we could use an electromagnet field to charge the batteries.... if its outside we could show you how a solar light (which is usually 1.5v) could be modified to recharge the batteries constantly..... we are trying to help hence all of our replies but we need you to help us to help you out. first step figure out what you need.

 

[poorfornow]

Can anyone answer these questions?

How do the Loc8tor tags manage to remain locatable for some number of months working on 2 button cells?

Could the frequencies used to intercom between the tags and their finder unit be sent and received from a physically unadapted mobile phone?

Regards all.

 

[donkey]

the issue here is that we have a rough idea of the loc8tor system.
we cannot give exact details without getting one, pulling it apart and going through it piece by piece.
but to answer the first question they don't use as much power as most other items on the market.....
to answer the second there might be an adaption that could be made but it is highly unlikely as it is using straight rf, mobile phones use bluetooth and wifi which is a data packet

 

[poorfornow]

the issue here is that we have a rough idea of the loc8tor system.
we cannot give exact details without getting one, pulling it apart and going through it piece by piece.
but to answer the first question they don't use as much power as most other items on the market.....
to answer the second there might be an adaption that could be made but it is highly unlikely as it is using straight rf, mobile phones use bluetooth and wifi which is a data packet

Hey Donkey,

If the phone cannot communicate with the loc8tor devices then there was no need to allow that line of questions to carry on......phew.

Does this mean that I should probably consider bluetooth or wifi only?

I did look at those wonderful rfid tags, the active, semi-passive and passive. I guess this is the same comms issue. I definitely cannot have any physically adaptation at the phone side.

I am imagining that both BT and wifi are both large and/or power hungry. Not good news.

 

[poorfornow]

Hurry for bluetooth low energy.

 

[donkey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_low_energy

youalso have gsm which is a sim card, you can make a mobile phone thats not a mobile phone to do certain things, if you text on, it turns on.....you get the idea.

the 3 major avenues used from phones is wifi (not supported on all phones butthe smartphones should have it) bluetooth(once again they should have it) and gsm (it WILL have it)

 

[poorfornow]

I found out last night just as you guys suggested early on; that one of the so called, possible "extensions" to my idea has indeed already been invented. Have to think now whether it is worth considering my main idea, which is related.

However all is not lost as I have discovered (as many have!) BLE. There are so many possibilities with such technology.

Regards for all attention............

HAL: I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do......