Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Can you measure Impedance with an Ohm Meter..

D

Denny B

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is it possible to measure Impedance with an ohm meter.
For example can you measure the Impedance of a 4 ohm
car speaker with an ohm meter?

When I tell people they cannot measure Impedance with an
ohm meter, you need an impedance meter and the impedance
must be measured with the speaker in operation, with a signal generator
supplying a fixed frequency, this always leads to disagreements
with the person who demands an ohm meter to measure what he calls
Impedance, when I tell him an ohm meter can only measure the resistance
of the coil there is always disagreement.

I tell them Impedance is AC resistance and what they measure
with an ohm meter is DC resistance. Disagreement here again.

Will somebody take me up on this and clarify the situation.

Thanks in advance
Denny B
 
R

Ray L. Volts

Jan 1, 1970
0
Denny B said:
Is it possible to measure Impedance with an ohm meter.
For example can you measure the Impedance of a 4 ohm
car speaker with an ohm meter?

When I tell people they cannot measure Impedance with an
ohm meter, you need an impedance meter and the impedance
must be measured with the speaker in operation, with a signal generator
supplying a fixed frequency, this always leads to disagreements
with the person who demands an ohm meter to measure what he calls
Impedance, when I tell him an ohm meter can only measure the resistance
of the coil there is always disagreement.

I tell them Impedance is AC resistance and what they measure
with an ohm meter is DC resistance. Disagreement here again.

Impedance is the total opposition to current flow -- a combination of both
resistance AND reactance (capacitive and inductive). As you suggest,
impedance does change with frequency, except in purely resistive networks.

I just did a quick Google and found the following hit, which might help
further:

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci212333,00.html
 
H

Harry Conover

Jan 1, 1970
0
Denny B said:
Is it possible to measure Impedance with an ohm meter.
For example can you measure the Impedance of a 4 ohm
car speaker with an ohm meter?

When I tell people they cannot measure Impedance with an
ohm meter, you need an impedance meter and the impedance
must be measured with the speaker in operation, with a signal generator
supplying a fixed frequency, this always leads to disagreements
with the person who demands an ohm meter to measure what he calls
Impedance, when I tell him an ohm meter can only measure the resistance
of the coil there is always disagreement.

I tell them Impedance is AC resistance and what they measure
with an ohm meter is DC resistance. Disagreement here again.

Will somebody take me up on this and clarify the situation.

Thanks in advance
Denny B

You are correct in stating that you cannot measure impedance using an
ohm meter.

This is sort of a "No Brainer", since impedance is typically frequency
dependent and an ohm meter measures only dc resistance.

Harry C.
 
W

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'

Jan 1, 1970
0
You are correct in stating that you cannot measure impedance using an
ohm meter.

You can measure the real part of the impedance, since the impedance is
going to be _at_least_ as much as the resistance.
This is sort of a "No Brainer", since impedance is typically frequency
dependent and an ohm meter measures only dc resistance.

But then the speaker may measure 4 ohms at 1kHz, but some widely
differing impedance at another freq. Especially if it has a xover
network.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
H

Harry Conover

Jan 1, 1970
0
Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' said:
You can measure the real part of the impedance, since the impedance is
going to be _at_least_ as much as the resistance.

You can't even do that. As someone else posted, consider the case of a
1/4-wave, end driven antenna.

Harry C.
 
W

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'

Jan 1, 1970
0
You can't even do that. As someone else posted, consider the case of a
1/4-wave, end driven antenna.

The OP asked a Q about measuring a speaker and I'm still referring to
that context. I didn't think that we were discussing RF radiators.

Obviously one has to use good judgment when making the measurement.
If you're measuring a coil in parallel with a resistance, the coil's
DC resistance will predominate in the resistance measurement. And of
course if you're measuring a coil, cap, and resistor in series, the
resistance is going to measure infinite because the cap is blocking
the DC. So obviously in these cases, the resistance measurement is
not going to be valid.

If we're just talking about speakers, there is the possibility that
the speaker has a crossover network between it and the terminals. And
of course that can throw a whole new set of variables into the
resistance measurement.


--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
H

Harry Conover

Jan 1, 1970
0
Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' said:
The OP asked a Q about measuring a speaker and I'm still referring to
that context. I didn't think that we were discussing RF radiators.

You may want to go back and refresh your memory about the OP's
question. It was: "Is it possible to measure Impedance with an ohm
meter."

The answere is of course not, and it doesn't depend on if you want to
measure the impedance of an audio speaker or an antenna system. The
identical concepts and rules apply.
Obviously one has to use good judgment when making the measurement.
If you're measuring a coil in parallel with a resistance, the coil's
DC resistance will predominate in the resistance measurement. And of
course if you're measuring a coil, cap, and resistor in series, the
resistance is going to measure infinite because the cap is blocking
the DC. So obviously in these cases, the resistance measurement is
not going to be valid.

The OP's question was not about resistance, it was about impedance.

Rather than debate the point endlessly, I strongly suggest that you go
crack an EE 101 or AC Circuits 101 text and learn about impedance.
You'll find that it is a complex quantity containing both a real and
an imaginary component, neither one of which can be measured using a
d.c. ohm meter.

As an example, take a conventional 10-Watt, 8-Ohm speaker and compare
its d.c. resistance to that of a 100-Watt, 8-Ohm speaker. The d.c.
resistance may vary as much as 20 to 1, which tells you absolutely
nothing about the speakers' impedances.

If you want to measure the impedance of anything, be it a speaker or
an antenna, you have to employ a.c. measurements. For speakers these
techniques are quite simple, for antennas more complex. The bottom
line being, impedance is definitely not d.c. resistance, nor does a
d.c. resistance measurment tell you anything about impedance.

Harry C.
 
W

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'

Jan 1, 1970
0
Again, you cannot measure the real part of impedance with a d.c. ohm
meter! I realize that non of this is sinking in, but just as an
example that everyone else will understand, try measuring the
impedance of a tweeter using a capacitor as a simple high-pass filter.
Your d.c. ohm meter will register an open circuit, just as it would if
attempting to measure the impedance of a 50-ohm impedance 1/4-wave
monopole antenna.

I have already said that previously. The crossover network would add
other elements to the speaker and the measurement would be open
circuit if there was a cap in series.
Really, it's a no-brainer that all the arm waving it the world will
not change.
You really need to go crack a book or two covering a.c. circuits and
impedance to grasp what is being discussed here.

I don't want to hear your put-downs. I want to hear your explanation
on how I "cannot" as you say, make a DC resistance of a speaker that
has no other components connected to it, as I say in the following
paragraph, and which, as you say, 'hasn't sunk in'.
Nonsense. (By the way, I'm not a tech. I have degrees in both physics
and EE.) I'm simply trying to tell you the way that it actually is,
and not how you perceive it to be.

I don't care. And I don't need to be told that the way it actually is
is anything different than how ai perceive it. Stop being
condescending and treat me like an adult.
The impedance of a speaker, be it 3.2-ohm or 8-ohm CANNOT be
determined by on ohm meter reading, since the resistance of the
speaker's voice coil will vary widely with its power handling
capacity. It you measure the resistance of a 100-200 watt dynamic
speaker, the voice coil resistance can be as low as a fraction of an
ohm. With a 5 or 10 watt speaker, it could be as high as 5-6 ohms.
Neither reading tells you anything about the impedance of the speaker.

So you're telling everyone, not just me, that one *cannot* deduce that
if a speaker, by itself, measures 5 or 6 ohms DC resistance, as _you_
say above, that that very same speaker has _at_least_ an impedance of
5 ohms, or more?

I think we would all really like to hear your answer to this, Mr EE.
To measure speaker impedance, you need to employ an impedance bridge,
or at least an audio frequency VTVM used in conjunction with a series
dropping resistor. When the audio voltage drop across the speaker
matches that across the series dropping resistor, you know that the
dropping resistor value is equal to the impedance of the speaker (at a
specific frequency).

The measurement is that simple, but you can't perform it with only a
d.c. ohm meter.

If you need to isolate both the real and imaginary component of
impedance, that's where you will need an impedance bridge to isolate
the components of impedance that are orthogonal to each other.
Sorry guy, it is you that is posting misinformation on the newsgroup.

And what about yourself? Perhaps you've discovered a new physical
property, negative impedance, that will subtract from DC resistance?

[chest thumping and condescending insults about intelligence snipped]

Next stop: The Twilight Zone.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
H

Harry Conover

Jan 1, 1970
0
Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' said:
So you're telling everyone, not just me, that one *cannot* deduce that
if a speaker, by itself, measures 5 or 6 ohms DC resistance, as _you_
say above, that that very same speaker has _at_least_ an impedance of
5 ohms, or more?

Obviously that's not what I posted. Deterermination or measurement of
a speaker impedance provides a specific value. If I measure the d.c.
resistance of a speaker voice coil be to 1.2-Ohms, it tells ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING about the impedance of the speaker.

You're assuming that if a speaker has a restance of say N-Ohms, it has
an impedance greater than N-Ohms. In most cases this is true, but not
always, plus it doesn't provide the value of the speaker's impedance
hence you haven't measured the speaker impedance and still don't know
its value. (Note also that there are exceptional cases where the
speaker resistance will be greater than its imedance, but I'm sure you
already know this.)

It is also quite possible for an 8-Ohm speaker to have a voice coil
resistance of 0.5-Ohm, and a 3.2-Ohm speaker to have a voice coil
resistance of 2.5-Ohms, and here again your Ohm meter reading will
tell you nothing about impedance.



Again this is pretty basic stuff, and every competent electroincs
technician is familiar with the difference between resistance and
impedance measurements.

Harry C.
 
W

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'

Jan 1, 1970
0
Obviously that's not what I posted. Deterermination or measurement of
a speaker impedance provides a specific value. If I measure the d.c.
resistance of a speaker voice coil be to 1.2-Ohms, it tells ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING about the impedance of the speaker.

You're assuming that if a speaker has a restance of say N-Ohms, it has
an impedance greater than N-Ohms. In most cases this is true, but not
always, plus it doesn't provide the value of the speaker's impedance
hence you haven't measured the speaker impedance and still don't know
its value. (Note also that there are exceptional cases where the
speaker resistance will be greater than its imedance, but I'm sure you
already know this.)

I see that now you're backpedaling, you've gone from "Again, you
cannot measure the real part of impedance with a d.c. ohm
meter!" (your exact words), to "In most cases this is true, but not
always".

As I stated before, and you seem to have ignored, the measurement does
not have to give an exact value. I also stated that the measurement
had to be of just a simple speaker, not a speaker with a crossover or
capacitor, etc.
It is also quite possible for an 8-Ohm speaker to have a voice coil
resistance of 0.5-Ohm, and a 3.2-Ohm speaker to have a voice coil
resistance of 2.5-Ohms, and here again your Ohm meter reading will
tell you nothing about impedance.

I have NOT claimed that the measurement would give the exact impedance
of the speaker. And you keep saying that "your Ohm meter reading will
tell you nothing about impedance."

You also claim that "(Note also that there are exceptional cases where
the speaker resistance will be greater than its imedance, but I'm sure
you already know this.)"

I have already limited the measurement to a simple speaker, without
any other components, such as a capacitor. I'm talking about only a
simple inductance and resistance.

You're telling me that the impedance of this speaker could be less
than its DC resistance. Could you explain how you come to this
conclusion?
Again this is pretty basic stuff, and every competent electroincs
technician is familiar with the difference between resistance and
impedance measurements.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
H

Harry Conover

Jan 1, 1970
0
Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' said:
I see that now you're backpedaling, you've gone from "Again, you
cannot measure the real part of impedance with a d.c. ohm
meter!" (your exact words), to "In most cases this is true, but not
always".

ROFL!!!!! Clueless Dork!
As I stated before, and you seem to have ignored, the measurement does
not have to give an exact value.

Then it obviously isn't a measurement.
I also stated that the measurement
had to be of just a simple speaker, not a speaker with a crossover or
capacitor, etc.

Impedance is impedance, and quite different from resistance.
I have NOT claimed that the measurement would give the exact impedance
of the speaker. And you keep saying that "your Ohm meter reading will
tell you nothing about impedance."

It obviously won't! Do you work at being a Clueless Dork, or does it
come natural to you? :)
You also claim that "(Note also that there are exceptional cases where
the speaker resistance will be greater than its imedance, but I'm sure
you already know this.)"

I have already limited the measurement to a simple speaker, without
any other components, such as a capacitor. I'm talking about only a
simple inductance and resistance.

Now where do you suppose the distributed capacitance vanished?
You're telling me that the impedance of this speaker could be less
than its DC resistance. Could you explain how you come to this
conclusion?

AC Circuits 101, of course. Ever hear about speakers without a moving
(dynamic) voice coil? How about headphones, electrostatic tweeters,
etc., etc., etc. Ever wonder what happens to the impedance of a
speaker as it approaches its resonant frequency? No, I suppose that
the answer is obviously not.

The below is worth repeating:

It's been fun playing, but I'm growing weary of trying to educate
someone in the basics who is evidently resistant to opening a textbook
on basic a.c. circuits and comprehending its content.

Harry C.
 
W

Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun'

Jan 1, 1970
0
I asked some questions, expected a simple explanation, and got called
a "clueless dork." He has graduated from degree waving to name
calling. I would settle for the simple explanation of what's wrong
with my assumptions, but I won't settle for being insulted. Again.


ROFL!!!!! Clueless Dork!


Then it obviously isn't a measurement.


Impedance is impedance, and quite different from resistance.


It obviously won't! Do you work at being a Clueless Dork, or does it
come natural to you? :)


Now where do you suppose the distributed capacitance vanished?


AC Circuits 101, of course. Ever hear about speakers without a moving
(dynamic) voice coil? How about headphones, electrostatic tweeters,
etc., etc., etc. Ever wonder what happens to the impedance of a
speaker as it approaches its resonant frequency? No, I suppose that
the answer is obviously not.

The below is worth repeating:


It's been fun playing, but I'm growing weary of trying to educate
someone in the basics who is evidently resistant to opening a textbook
on basic a.c. circuits and comprehending its content.

Harry C.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
M

Michael Hofmann

Jan 1, 1970
0
Harry said:
Michael Hofmann said:
Watson A.Name - 'Watt Sun' wrote:
[...]
Harry Conover wrote:
[...]

What is it with you, guys? Do you really want to hit each and every kill
file or why can't you continue your personal flame war with personal
mail?

Be disgusted Michael if you want to, but the reason for posting
disagreements like this one on Usenet is simply to share the substance
of the debate with other readers for THEIR benefit. You have to
realize that many readers of this newsgroup are neither electronics
technicians nor engineers,

Correct. And none of those is still following your rants.
hence are easily influenced by the posting
of mis-information. Hence, the need for factual correction.

Like I said, none of those will realize, even though your sight is totally
correct.
Trust me that there are readers of this newsgroup, that because of
their limited technical background, could be easily misled into the
false belief that you can learn about the value of an impedance though
a Ohm meter measurement. More learned readers realize that you
obviously can't.

False beliefs are not corrected by reading flame wars. Let those who want
"measure impedance" with an ohm meter and let them find out the hard way.
Pro's won't and know why, they don't need your flame war either.
If you don't understand the purpose of Usenet posts, and how they
fundamentally differ from email discussions, you're obviously in the
wrong place.

Whatever.
EOT for me, fup2p, score adjusted.
Michael
 
Top