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College EE Textbook Recommendations

J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
My dear Mr. Thompson,

As I type this, I am literally -- LITERALLY -- no more than four
inches away from my copy of the book "Industrial Electricity, Part I"
(circa 1939). I mention this by way of assuring you that neither my
admiration for, nor accumulation of, "time tested" electronics books
is lacking. Still, it would seem that solid-state electronics is here
to stay, and that acquiring books whose treatment of such electronics
extends past copper oxide rectifiers might not be completely
unwarranted. <g> Furthermore, there is the sociological aspect to
consider. The repressive laws in my state ostensibly forbid
vivisection. How else am I to gain insight into the new breed of EEs
-- a wretched heard that it is my goal to eventually join, if I live
long enough and if I can find nothing more demeaning to do -- without
at least examining their fodder?

Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

P.S. I, too, have a "50 year-old MIT text book". It was meant to be a
definitive reference on electrical engineering (much as Dr. Knuth's
"The Art of Computer Programming" was meant to likewise for CS, except
that they actually finished their book ;-). Reading it thoroughly is
on my todo list (which currently has items on it dating back to the
1980s, sigh).

I guess I'm biased by my own experiences... when I was at MIT there
were just the beginnings of teaching solid-state. After graduation I
went directly to Motorola SPD for hands-on training in IC's.

Math books definitely have no age.

...Jim Thompson
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
"Designing" is an art. School books provide the fundamental *tools*
necessary to carry out your art.

Yesterday at a client I got fooled by one of them *tools*. Scope was
reading funny stuff. Turns out the cal trim cap in a Tek P6137 had
croaked. Anyone have a schematic for that one?

Oh, and ye olde HP3585 analyzer is dead. Shippers dropped it, internal
CRT damage, frame cracked etc. So sad. Almost like seeing a smashed up
vintage race car :-(
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard Kanarek said:
Admittedly, the fact that a book is/was used by some college somewhere
hardly guarantees its quality. For every Strunk's "The Elements of
Style" (just to pick a quality (former) college text book at random)
there are doubtlessly innumerable lousy text books.

Most professors seem to get an itch, sooner or later, to write a textbook...
and many of them then proceed to require that same textbook for their
students.

If that's not a good way to stifle your student's ability to get more than one
point of view on a subject, I don't know what is. :)

Of course, many professors do have good books, I just think the savvier
professor would make his or her own book a recommended second book rather than
the primary one for a course.

I had a comp. sci. professor use his own text in a course that was best
described as, "Assembly language on a VAX." It was an OK book, I suppose, but
nothing to compare to the classic CS books out there. I do recall learning a
few things about magnetic tapes that I didn't already know -- something that
was about 95% useless already at the time, but still interesting. (I kinda
wish I'd had some EE class where they had discussed tubes at least a little,
rather than immediately relegating them to the corners of anachronisms...)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
Howdy Joerg,

Regarding your post:

"Even back when I was studying for my degree I didn't find college
textbooks particularly helpful to achieve a true understanding. What
really taught me radio and, to some extent, digital design was the
ARRL Handbook. Surprisingly cheap, too. Later it was The Art of
Electronics.
Then Ulrich Rhode's Communications Receivers etc. Eventually I worked
my way up to high level signal processing but that was after I had my
masters."

Thanks for the recommendations!

Admittedly, the fact that a book is/was used by some college somewhere
hardly guarantees its quality. For every Strunk's "The Elements of
Style" (just to pick a quality (former) college text book at random)
there are doubtlessly innumerable lousy text books. Still, even in the
EE field, there must be some quality, information packed books out
there. (This explains why I asked for recommendations, rather than
just buying used college books randomly.

Definitely obtain "The Art of Electronics" if you don't have a copy.
BTW, one of the authors (Winfield Hill) is a fellow s.e.d. poster here.
That is really nice.
"BTW, thanks for the hint about Purplus in the CAD group. Order came
in. I wish I could fire up the new DesignCAD right away but too
swamped with work right now."

Glad to have been of assistance with your 2D cad search. (Hint: one of
DesignCAD's advantages is its use of hot keys. Once you get the hang
of it, may drafting chores can be done without typing a
command/accessing a pull down menu. You might want to get the hang of
it. ;-)

Showing no greater wisdom than you did, I decided to follow my own
advice, too (always a mistake). I purchased a copy of ViaCAD 2D/3D
(www.keenzo.com) that I had mentioned on the other newsgroup. Again
like you, I haven't had the time to actually try the thing, but wow!
Of the $84 bucks I paid, I think a good quarter of it went into the
packaging (my box -- incredibly, they sell the exact same program in
two different boxes! -- consists of a full color, embossed cardboard
box with a full color cardboard multi-page pamphlet making up its
front). The (still untried) program actually seems to consist of two
equal or more expensive CAD programs (Concepts 2D & 3D,
www.csi-concepts.com) combined into one. Despite its main feature
being its sophisticated 3D editing and unmatched (in its price class)
file import/export facilities, the origami box advertises the software
as being useful for, among other things, "School Projects" and
"Flowcharts"!?!

Questions:
a) Am I really the last living sane person left?


Probably not but the number of sane persons is definitely on the
decline. Just try to get used to the fact that you now need at least 1GB
of RAM to write "Hello World". At least after Vista, I guess.

b) Heaven knows, I'm no (financial or otherwise) genius, but is
selling more for less really the way to become wealthy?

Yes :-(

Engineering certainly isn't. Then again, wealth ain't the purpose of
life. Since you mentioned heaven: "For we brought nothing into the
world, and we can take nothing out of it" (1Tim 6:7). Not even a nice
CAD program ;-)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joel said:
Most professors seem to get an itch, sooner or later, to write a textbook...
and many of them then proceed to require that same textbook for their
students.

If that's not a good way to stifle your student's ability to get more than one
point of view on a subject, I don't know what is. :)

Of course, many professors do have good books, I just think the savvier
professor would make his or her own book a recommended second book rather than
the primary one for a course.

I had a comp. sci. professor use his own text in a course that was best
described as, "Assembly language on a VAX." It was an OK book, I suppose, but
nothing to compare to the classic CS books out there. I do recall learning a
few things about magnetic tapes that I didn't already know -- something that
was about 95% useless already at the time, but still interesting. (I kinda
wish I'd had some EE class where they had discussed tubes at least a little,
rather than immediately relegating them to the corners of anachronisms...)

We had a prof who topped that. In the early 80's he declared that almost
none of us would have to deal with circuits on the transistor level
anymore since everything will be in chips. I had a major ROFL episode
right there in the auditorium, just couldn't help it ...
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
[top-post repaired]
Greetings,

Do you suppose that I would value the opinion of some anonymous
librarian over those of the venerated contributors of this newsgroup?
Horrors!

I'd trust an engineering librarian more than I'd trust the kounter
kiddie at Border's.

Cheers!
Rich
 
Greetings,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

First, on the chance that it is of assistance to anyone, here are your
links (without line breaks):

www.amazon.com/Analysis-Design-Analog-Integrated-Circuits/dp/0471321680www.artofelectronics.comwww.aicdesign.orgwww.amazon.com/Analog-Integrated-Circuits-Signal-Processing/dp/047109...

Second, thanks again for the links (and thanks, too, to the other
posters on this thread). I confess that I would normally have shunned
IC related texts such as those you mentioned. My inclinations run
towards physics (as it pertains to electricity/etc.) and circuit
design using discrete parts. (I was strongly affected by a 1940s Radio
Electronics book when I was impressionable; this may have distorted my
viewpoint.) Thank's for broadening my horizons. <g>

Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

While there is high end audio being designed discretely, most
solutions exist in a chip. If you are not designing chips, you are
probably combining chips to build systems. Now there are booking on
discrete audio design, but they are not college texts.

http://www.amazon.com/High-Power-Audio-Amplifier-Construction-Manual/dp/0071341196
Other than praising God in the forward, this book is a good text.

http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Amplifi...0750680725/ref=pd_sim_b_2/102-8268039-0492929
I've read many of Doug Self's papers. I haven't read his book.

There are many websites for discrete audio design. Erno Bobely papers
are on the net.

For RF, the ARRL has plenty of books a step below college level.
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Greetings.

I have elderly Electronics Engineering text books, but I don't have
any new/recent ones. For both my education and curiosity, I'd like to
get some (one or more) newish EE college text books. GOOD ones -- and
by "GOOD" I mean well written. I have a newish Electronics Technology
text book that strikes me as being rather mediocre, even with its
charming pastel printing and excessive diagrams. I certainly don't
want to go out of my way to acquire mediocre EE textbooks, too.

With regard to a particular area of study, I'd be interested in books
relevant to digital logic and radio. I assume "digital logic" is self
explanatory; by "radio" I mean anything somewhat related to what would
be involved with designing a AM/FM radio receiver. e.g. mesh/node
analysis; design of discrete "transistor" (Bipolar, FET) "circuits"
(audio/RF); analysis of oscillators/filters; etc.

For clarity:
a. I am only interested in obtaining recommendations and titles/ISBN
numbers. This is NOT a RFQ! ;-)
b. I am interested in undergraduate/graduate EE (electronics) books.
Clive "Max" Maxfield (http://www.maxmon.com/), for example, has
probably written several good electronics related books (I have fond,
if dim, recollections of "Bebop to the Boolean Boogie"). His books are
not, however, college text books, so they are disqualified from this
discussion. Ditto all the other various hobbyist/technology
(non-Engineering)/miscellaneous electronics books.
c. I'm looking for pointers to best-of-breed books. I'm perfectly
capable of randomly locating unvetted textbooks via Internet searches.
d. Although I'm located in the USA, a pointer towards a particularly
good UK electronics engineering (again, NOT technology) text book
would quite welcome (pip, pip)!

Thanks in advance!

Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

For digital I would recommend Digital Circuits Principles and
Applications by Ronald J. Tocci
For general analog electronics (transistors, amps, filters etc) I
would recommend Electronis Devices by Thomas L. Floyd

Both are well laid out and simple to read with no complex math or
analysis stuff (if that's what you are after).

Dave.
 
R

Richard Kanarek

Jan 1, 1970
0
Howdy,

Thanks for the various links.

With regards to Mr. Slone's supplications to the deities, isn't this
traditionally how an important literary work begins? Surely I can
recall something similar at the start of The Odyssey. ;-)


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek
 
R

Richard Kanarek

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dear Mr. Jones,

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

I cannot be sure because the book is at work[1] -- ever since I
started this thread (from home), almost any book I've wanted to
mention/refer to has been at work or missing! -- but I *think* that
Mr. Floyd's many book[2] are exactly the sort of books that I'm NOT
looking for. (But thanks just the same for the input!)

First off, why would I (anyone) want a book with "no complex math or
analysis stuff"? Must I remain ignorant forever? Nay, I want books
that will help me to acquire skill and dexterity with complex math and
analysis (which is, admittedly, asking a lot from an author ;-). What
a pity that Silvanus Thompson never put his quill to engineering.

Also, surely Mr. Floyd's book(s) are geared to engineering technology,
not engineering? While I am myself pursuing, part time, an
engineering'ish degree, it is all by distance. I have no idea what
non-ish engineering students are reading these days (except as
revealed by the replies posted here).


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek


[1] The name I give for the place where I do penance for what must be
a particularly ghastly assortment of sins I must have committed in
some forgotten past life.

[2] The odd grammar is deliberate. If I recall correctly, Mr. Floyd,
like Mr. Malvino, wrote one book once, which has been republished,
under different titles but with few actual differences, ever since.
(Good work if you can get it!) I'm inclined to be more lenient with
Mr. Malvino, as I'm fond of "Transistor Circuit Approximations" (to
name but one of its titles ;-), but, having a preferred electronics
technology text (which has gone missing, so I can't quote its title),
I have little reason to be as forgiving with Mr. Floyd. Assuming, of
course, that I haven't confused Mr. Floyd with some other author.
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dear Mr. Jones,

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

I cannot be sure because the book is at work[1] -- ever since I
started this thread (from home), almost any book I've wanted to
mention/refer to has been at work or missing! -- but I *think* that
Mr. Floyd's many book[2] are exactly the sort of books that I'm NOT
looking for. (But thanks just the same for the input!)

OK, no problem.
First off, why would I (anyone) want a book with "no complex math or
analysis stuff"?

Perhaps because they are generally easier to read and easier to find
stuff and comprehend at a later date. And generally the majority of
real engineering work does not require the complex math or analysis.
Must I remain ignorant forever? Nay, I want books
that will help me to acquire skill and dexterity with complex math and
analysis (which is, admittedly, asking a lot from an author ;-).

Sure, in that case get a book with complex math and analysis as well.
But you generally won't get the best of both worlds.
Also, surely Mr. Floyd's book(s) are geared to engineering technology,
not engineering? While I am myself pursuing, part time, an
engineering'ish degree, it is all by distance. I have no idea what
non-ish engineering students are reading these days (except as
revealed by the replies posted here).

They are reading as many books as there are out there. Almost every
school in every state in every country in the world seem to use a
different book. The Art of Electronics is probably as close as it gets
to a "standard" text.
[2] The odd grammar is deliberate. If I recall correctly, Mr. Floyd,
like Mr. Malvino, wrote one book once, which has been republished,
under different titles but with few actual differences, ever since.

He has done quite a few it seems:

"Electronic Devices" (7th edition, I have the 2nd edition)
http://www.amazon.com/Electronic-De...523545-2599150?ie=UTF8&qid=1175165667&sr=8-11

"Principles of Electronic Circuits":
http://www.amazon.com/Principles-El...599150?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175165667&sr=8-11

Experiments in Electronic Devices: To Accompany Floyd Electronic
Devices and Electronic Devices Electron Flow Version":
http://www.amazon.com/Experiments-E...599150?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175165934&sr=1-15

"Fundamentals of Analog Circuits"
http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-...599150?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175165934&sr=1-13

"Digital Fundamentals":
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Funda...523545-2599150?ie=UTF8&qid=1175165667&sr=8-11

"Fundamentals of Analog Circuits"
http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-...599150?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175165934&sr=1-18

+others.

Not a bad collection of work.
I don't know of the differences between books, but presumably the
digital is completely different to the analog one :->

Dave.
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
David L. Jones said:
Perhaps because they are generally easier to read and easier to find
stuff and comprehend at a later date. And generally the majority of
real engineering work does not require the complex math or analysis.

<< cough >> I think it'd be *quite* difficult to do anything related to filter
design (which includes building PLLs, most amplifiers, pretty much all of RF
design, etc.) without standard phasor analysis, which -- at least where I went
to school -- was part of "EE 101" (although it was really "ECE 220" :) ).

I would agree that few engineers need to remember how you go about
demonstrating that, e.g., S-parameters are passive if the matrix is unitary,
which implies that the eigenvalues of S^{H}*S are all less than one, and you
can re-cast this into a form that uses the positve real lemma to derive an
algebraic passivity check by constructing a specific Hamiltonian matrix, blah,
blah, blah (sorry, thesis flashback nightmares)...
Sure, in that case get a book with complex math and analysis as well.
But you generally won't get the best of both worlds.

This is a good point: The Art of Electronics is the obvious example -- very
little "tradiaitonal EE" math, yet incredibly useful.
They are reading as many books as there are out there. Almost every
school in every state in every country in the world seem to use a
different book. The Art of Electronics is probably as close as it gets
to a "standard" text.

I think? there are realtively few colleges that use TAoE in their
*engineering* curriculum... Sedra & Smith seems more popular there, whereas
TAoE seems to show up a lot in electronics classes coming from, e.g., physics
departments.

---Joel
 
Greetings.

I have elderly Electronics Engineering text books, but I don't have
any new/recent ones. For both my education and curiosity, I'd like to
get some (one or more) newish EE college text books. GOOD ones -- and
by "GOOD" I mean well written. I have a newish Electronics Technology
text book that strikes me as being rather mediocre, even with its
charming pastel printing and excessive diagrams. I certainly don't
want to go out of my way to acquire mediocre EE textbooks, too.

With regard to a particular area of study, I'd be interested in books
relevant to digital logic and radio. I assume "digital logic" is self
explanatory; by "radio" I mean anything somewhat related to what would
be involved with designing a AM/FM radio receiver. e.g. mesh/node
analysis; design of discrete "transistor" (Bipolar, FET) "circuits"
(audio/RF); analysis of oscillators/filters; etc.

For clarity:
a. I am only interested in obtaining recommendations and titles/ISBN
numbers. This is NOT a RFQ! ;-)
b. I am interested in undergraduate/graduate EE (electronics) books.
Clive "Max" Maxfield (http://www.maxmon.com/), for example, has
probably written several good electronics related books (I have fond,
if dim, recollections of "Bebop to the Boolean Boogie"). His books are
not, however, college text books, so they are disqualified from this
discussion. Ditto all the other various hobbyist/technology
(non-Engineering)/miscellaneous electronics books.
c. I'm looking for pointers to best-of-breed books. I'm perfectly
capable of randomly locating unvetted textbooks via Internet searches.
d. Although I'm located in the USA, a pointer towards a particularly
good UK electronics engineering (again, NOT technology) text book
would quite welcome (pip, pip)!

Thanks in advance!

Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

I doubt any academic book would be able to teach you anything that you
already know since most authors have this tendency to copy one
another. Original books like The Art of Electronics by Win Hill et al,
or Power Amplifier Design by Douglas Self are rare exceptions. If you
can, look for publications from societies in that particular area such
as for radio, you could try the RSGB or it's American equivalent
ARRL.

http://www.rsgbshop.org/shop/acatalog/

Some of the projects are amazing because they have been designed by
hardened professionals rather than academics living in a platonic
universe of equations.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
On 29 Mar 2007 11:17:54 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

[snip]
I doubt any academic book would be able to teach you anything that you
already know since most authors have this tendency to copy one
another. Original books like The Art of Electronics by Win Hill et al,
or Power Amplifier Design by Douglas Self are rare exceptions.
[snip]

I suppose you are serious :-(

Circuit compendia, "original books" such as by Win Hill et al "teach"
only to cut and paste... NOT how to think.

...Jim Thompson
 
On 29 Mar 2007 11:17:54 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

[snip]
I doubt any academic book would be able to teach you anything that you
already know since most authors have this tendency to copy one
another. Original books like The Art of Electronics by Win Hill et al,
or Power Amplifier Design by Douglas Self are rare exceptions.

[snip]

I suppose you are serious :-(

Circuit compendia, "original books" such as by Win Hill et al "teach"
only to cut and paste... NOT how to think.

They teach people what it's like to design in the real world, unlike
most academic books. Academic books are needed to provide a foundation
in design, but the OP gave the impression that he already has this and
simply wants to get up to date. I learn more from people that design
for a living, rather than guys that plagarise other peoples books
going back 35 years, and I suspect the same is true for the OP who
gives the impression he already has the academic foundations.

jmc
 
J

joseph2k

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
Greetings,

PMBI, but regarding your recent post:


I agree with her up to a point. I'm appalled at how expensive old
engineering books can sometimes be. When I was young, during the brief
periods when the dinosaurs weren't on the prowl, I would often
scrounge around books stores, picking up old electronics books
(somewhat) cheap. To the extent that any of the current crop of young'
ins wants to, why not afford them the same opportunity? (Not that it
did me much good, sigh. ;-)

a) Great. I don't even have a van.
b) Buried with your books? Appalling! Set them free! They are probably
the only legacy of their talented authors. What an appalling act of
disrespect (to the authors), as well as waste, it is to burry/discard
them!
The best text books are written where the authors feel compelled to explain
clearly, what they had to scrounge out, on the way to their "Piled Higher
and Deeper". These usually occur when that aspect of technology is
transitioning from new and experimental (temperamental) to early
regularized. The GE Transistor Manual, 7th Edition, is a classic example.
I used it to learn bipolar transistor basics in my early teens. The 8th
edition at half the thickness is a travesty by comparison.

Just because a (text) book is newer does _NOT_ mean that it is necessarily
better. Of course if you insist on getting rid of your older text books,
let me know when and where, i might want to go "dumpster diving".
 
J

joseph2k

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard Kanarek wrote:

Questions:
a) Am I really the last living sane person left?
b) Heaven knows, I'm no (financial or otherwise) genius, but is
selling more for less really the way to become wealthy?


Cordially,
Richard Kanarek

I have lived sooo long with almost everybody telling me that "Who are you to
criticize me, you are no genius", that they almost talked me onto it. Not
that i really believe that i am some genius, but that they are trying to
avoid checking their own assumptions. Thus i tend to try to take away all
their excuses for not doing so.
 
D

David L. Jones

Jan 1, 1970
0
The best text books are written where the authors feel compelled to explain
clearly, what they had to scrounge out, on the way to their "Piled Higher
and Deeper". These usually occur when that aspect of technology is
transitioning from new and experimental (temperamental) to early
regularized. The GE Transistor Manual, 7th Edition, is a classic example.
I used it to learn bipolar transistor basics in my early teens. The 8th
edition at half the thickness is a travesty by comparison.

Just because a (text) book is newer does _NOT_ mean that it is necessarily
better.

Very true, but in general I think that more recent books benefit from
the desktop publishing revolution where it's easier to include lots of
nice graphs, highlights, diagrams and formatting that can
*potentially* make the books much easier to read and comprehend.
I'm always reminded of this whenever I reach for the Kernigham/Ritchie
C book, which is the standard text on the subject, good content but
awfully basic formatting makes it hard to read.

But of course good content and good presentation can very easily be
mutually exclusive!

Dave.
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim Thompson said:
On 29 Mar 2007 11:17:54 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
Circuit compendia, "original books" such as by Win Hill et al "teach"
only to cut and paste... NOT how to think.

Circuit compendia, sure, but I think you're selling Win a bit short. Yes, he
has plenty of design examples, but those come *after* the theory and some
attempt to get you to think for yourself. Additionally, the design examples
are presented in such a way as to try to get the user to *think* about what
the circuit does, rather than just blindly copying it. The fact that we see
people here occasionally trying to analyze one of Win's circuits is proof of
that.

Clearly you're a very good designer, Jim, but surely you'd admit that you'd
probably be nowhere near as good as you are if you hadn't had the opportunity
to view other peoples' designs, analyze them, and learn from them? I.e., if
you'd just been taught electronics theory and had to derive every single
circuit toplogy you've ever used from scratch?

How many books are on your shelf? :)

---Joel
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Circuit compendia, sure, but I think you're selling Win a bit short. Yes, he
has plenty of design examples, but those come *after* the theory and some
attempt to get you to think for yourself. Additionally, the design examples
are presented in such a way as to try to get the user to *think* about what
the circuit does, rather than just blindly copying it. The fact that we see
people here occasionally trying to analyze one of Win's circuits is proof of
that.

Clearly you're a very good designer, Jim, but surely you'd admit that you'd
probably be nowhere near as good as you are if you hadn't had the opportunity
to view other peoples' designs, analyze them, and learn from them? I.e., if
you'd just been taught electronics theory and had to derive every single
circuit toplogy you've ever used from scratch?

How many books are on your shelf? :)

---Joel

3 - 6' x 30" and 1 - 7' x 4' Costco oak bookcases, full to the brim.

But I was ALWAYS mathematically inclined, using Algebra to calculate
at least the basic performance before I built.

I still do. Spice is only a design checker. If you don't analyse,
you will miss subtleties that will shoot you in the ass ;-)

Which is why I get frosted when (almost) no lurker here will even
attempt to analyse the simplest of circuits.

( I cut my teeth on an ancient GE transistor data book... and fried a
LOT of stuff... frying and analysing WHY is the best teacher ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
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