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Danaher buys Keithley

B

BaltoTopDog

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ye gads the list of their divisions is like a who's who
of US Electronics....

Does Danaher keep them intact or just loot
them as technology assets?


More proof of your inane inability to have observed the world around
you ... FOR THE LAST FIFTY YEARS!

Who looted your skull cavity?
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yep, the evil Danaher group have gobbled up another one:

http://www.danaher.com/news/news_detail.asp?key=386

Dave.

After taking Tektronix private a few years back, among other
things.

There's a lot of oligarch wealth looking for a mattress to
stuff. Anything that isn't nailed to US middle class
spending, which isn't an area that is doing well right now.
Acquisitions are happening left and right, often called a
'mania' in our news, as a place to put cash because interest
rates are at rock bottom and it is literally "bad business"
to sit on cash considering futures. Many companies are
relative bargains and there are a few where the future
remains bright despite the bitter situation in the US.

Putting cash there is considered 'smart.'

Tektronix once competed with Keithley and Fluke and gave that
up. I still have one of Tek's RMS voltmeters, for example,
bought during a time when that competition held prices at
very reasonable figures. (I paid about $45 for it.) Then
Tek left the market.

Now, if Danaher can just buy Fluke.... Oh oh... cripes... ;)

Jon
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
<snip>
I read that Tektronix was planning on moving their scope production to
China. I believe they are down to less than 4000 employees from a peak of
24,000. that will drop much farther if production moves to China.
the FIRST thing Danaher should have done was fire all the TEK beancounters
and upper management. They ran a great company into the ground.

By the time Danaher got to them, the real criminals were long
gone. The bean-counters that had done the largest damage to
Tek, anyway.

In and around the year 1982, Tek had about 24,000 employees
and their gross revenue was almost $1.4 billion. This worked
out to something like $62k/employee. In that same year,
IBM's figure was near $125k/employee. I was making on the
order of $36k, that year, and I believe in that year profit
share was 0% (or close to it.) When I had started, in 1979,
profit share was 16% and the folks who had been there when I
arrived said that was down from about a more usual figure of
about 20%.

I'd been there about four years at the time and I have to say
that from the down-in-the-trenches place I lived -- 3 manager
levels inserted between me and the president -- I couldn't
have noticed better loyalties. I almost never saw an empty
office on saturdays or even sundays when I would also stop in
to work towards a calendar target I'd been given. I didn't
mind contributing to that spirit, either. It was wonderful
to be a part of and I felt good about playing a small role
shouldering work with others, too.

Not that it was a majority working week-ends, or that all
week-ends were filled with busy little elves making santa's
toys. People had lives. We were all part of something and
we had an identity. We knew who we were and that was part of
a whole team. Some of that team were able to make extra time
sometimes. Some weren't. But we never doubted the whole
team we were part of. We just each played the roles we
could, when we could.

The bean-counters were not so blind they couldn't see a bad
gross revenue per employee ratio. Especially since that is
one of the easiest and first calculations the MBAs there made
each year. However, apparently, they had a very difficult
time measuring this sense of pride and spirit and work ethic
and it never showed up in their 10k report where only numbers
and ratios make the grade.

By the end of 1981, the bean-counters on the board level
hatched some plans. They didn't believe in themselves,
didn't trust their own ability or the executive staff's
ability to take risks and succeed. And they didn't believe
in their employees or undertand the sense of place and
identity a great many of us had there, and what that could
mean when and if the executives chose to ask us to push hard
and get something done for them.

They could ask and I think many of us would have gone the
extra mile, instantly, had they merely said they have a goal
and need us to push towards it. That's something you can't
write down on a 10k report, but it sure is something that can
make a huge difference if you set your mind to achieving
important goals and need the rank-and-file to get behind you
to get a job done.

Profit share was down. Gross-revenue-per-empoyee was a mess.
Another factor loomed to the board of directors. Leveraged
buyouts were increasingly in the news and a serious danger to
Tek around that time. Tek had, circa 1982, $600 million
dollars at US National Bank. On their 10k report, it was
also clear that Tek had no short term or long term debt. They
were debt free, flush in cash, and looked about like slab of
juicy meat to an LBO-buyout-dog. The board decided to act, I
think, starting in 1981 and continuing forward to begin
buying their own stock shares back. I don't remember the
budgets set aside for that, but the amounts were huge and
intended to draw down some of that $600 million and become
less of a target.

But to get the gross-revenue-per-employee figure back up, I
think it was in 1982 that they also offered early retirement
to over 800 employees as a step to try before going on to
change an old policy and start firing people, wholesale.

You see, stories I heard when arriving were that if your job
wasn't needed anymore, Tek would allow you quite a long time
to run around the company and find some other area where they
needed you. And they would maintain some kind of salary for
you, too. That was quite a sense of security to have.

What shocked the board (I spoke with a board member for hours
about this), was that just about all of them took the early
retirement offer -- 795 is the figure I remember... in any
case, it was nearly 800. And the offer was made to some 820,
or so. Jim Castles told me that executive staff had planned
to that about 200 would.

I spoke personally with Jim Castles about this, who was on
the board. This conversation was in late 1983, while I was
running about securing venture capital (seed money) for a new
business I'd decided to start with four others. In the
process, the capitalist types put me in touch with Jim, but
the discussion turned to the subject of Tektronix for a bit.
(We succeeded, by the way, and launched a new company and a
product that was rated top in its class in national
publications. But that is another story for another time.)

I had been seeing what had happened to Tek in a short year or
two, before leaving. People were actually being let go,
without any time to find other work. Profit share was 0.
People showing up on weekends had significantly dropped.
Loyalty was falling. Etc. That was the context.

But I could not believe my ears, early in talking with Jim.
Apparently, they just wanted to avoid being an LBO target and
also to get the gross revenue/employee figure up. Buying
stock was the decision to inhibit the LBO part. Early
retirement and a change in employee policy allowing them to
just fire people with two weeks' notice was another.

But it was so obvious to me those were bean-counter steps,
not the steps of what you expect from top leadership in a
company. It's the kind of thing a CPA might do. But not the
kind of thing a captain of industry does.

(1) Never buy your own stock back. You sell stock because
you know how to do more with money than others do. That's
why you are in business. If the best thing you can do with
your cash is buy your own stock, you should find something
else to do.

(2) $600 million in cash in a bank and no debt is a good
thing, not a bad thing. Yes, you might be easy pickings as
an LBO target, but the solution isn't to throw the cash away
buying stock. The answer is to put that money together with
the money of others and do something with it. Be an active,
not a passive, manager of it. Tek had no debt. They could
have easily secured another $2 billion on their credit and
lack of debt and the fact that they could also contribute
that $600 million (it was NOT set aside for payroll, in case
you are wondering ... this was cash over and above operating
cash levels.) Going into debt is a great way to avoid being
a target.

The question is... what to do with all that.

Gee. I don't know. Let's see. Tek's bean-counters figure
there are too many employees. Maybe 10,000 too many by that
revenue/employee ratio, or more. Tek could muster $2.5
billion in a matter of a months' time. What a place to be!!

This means they would be able to enter any business arena,
cold turkey, with 10,000 employees already hired up and in
their seats, $2.5 billion dollars in cash to move forward on,
and... well... it was so clear to me because of all the work
I'd been doing, struggling for venture capital... that this
was a situation ANYONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would have drooled
for. It's like a wet dream. Who wouldn't want to have an
army of loyal employees, willing to work weekends if needed,
ready to go and 2.5 billion in cash to push along in some
direction??? Cripes. That's what everyone wishes for,
dreams about, and never gets to have. And here Tek was,
sitting on this possibility and deciding to bean count
themselves into the ground, instead.

It made no sense.

And I told Jim that, standing there next to him simply
shocked as I began to learn the fuller picture. I was
working my ass off for $1 million. It was like pulling
teeth. Those venture types were brutal about it, too. And
here I was learning the details of a company that was two
inches of vencture capital heaven, fully in their control,
and they were walking in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION!! I was
flabbergasted. Damn, would I have killed for that!!

The problem was, they didn't believe in themselves. To
succeed, you don't have to make the best decisions. You just
have to be able to make the decisions you do make, work out
much of the time. If you can navigate reasonably well, even
if the course you set isn't perfect, you will do okay. But
they didn't even believe that about themselves. They were
scared and had no confidence about managing that wonderful
situation they were in.

Some answers to the revenue/employee question are "get the
revenue up, keeping the employees the same" Another is "lose
employees, keeping the revenue the same." Apparently, the
only thing they felt confident to do was "lose employees."
But with that kind of cash availability in hand and the
existing employees, they could have chosen the other route --
had they had confidence in themselves to manage the needed
steps moving forward. But they didn't believe in themselves
about setting such a course. So they let that opportunity go
and instead chose to sail the company into the rocks,
instead, further ruining loyalties of some very good people
and letting go the core of all of those who'd been there 20
years and more and who formed the nervous system within the
company that _I_ relied upon when I needed to know who to go
to on some subject. They gutted, via early retirement; the
bought their own stock back rather than going into debt for
some new, confident business direction, and they started a
two week notice practice besides.

Damn, what anyone wouldn't have done to be able to pull
together billions of dollars and thousands of vetted
employees willing to work weenends for them. And they had
that right there, sitting on the table in front of them. And
because they didn't believe in themselves enough, because
they doubted their abilities, they pushed that away and chose
a bean-counter's approach.

The sad thing to me is that in late 1983, all that was clear
as crystal. Jim didn't argue with me. We just stood there
sadly discussing this disaster. At the time we were talking,
I think there were still about 22 thousand employees, which
Tek was actively working downwards. Much of the banked money
was gone. The 20+ year employees gutted out of the company.

The iceberg had hit the titanic, the hull ripped, but she was
hadn't yet sunk. But we could see the inevitable.

Jon
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
<snip about not buying one's own stock back>
It's often a way to help shareholders avoid tax. Keeping the stock
price up by buying stock leads to capital gains, whereas dividends are
income.

It's not active investment, doesn't create added value, and
is not healthy -- long term business-wise.

I gather additional motives exist. I mentioned one of my own
when I wrote, so your's just adds yet another which I was
also aware of.

I was making a judgment call. If the best thing you are able
to do with cash is buy back your stock, you've no business
being in business. You should have MUCH, MUCH BETTER THINGS
to be doing with it than that. If not, move aside.

Jon
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's often a way to help shareholders avoid tax.

In this case that wasn't the reason. And I know it wasn't,
because I was talking with one of the board members of Tek.

Besides, at the time capital gains was taxed at the same rate
as dividends. (Though it is hard to be certain since capital
gains taxes have see-sawed.) I think it was under Reagan,
with a later very public tax push, that they dropped the rate
to 1/2 or so. For a time.

Jon
 
N

Nico Coesel

Jan 1, 1970
0
cassiope said:
By the time Danaher got to them, the real criminals were long
gone. =A0The bean-counters that had done the largest damage to
Tek, anyway.

In and around the year 1982, Tek had about 24,000 employees
and their gross revenue was almost $1.4 billion. =A0This worked
out to something like $62k/employee. =A0In that same year,
IBM's figure was near $125k/employee. =A0I was making on the
order of $36k, that year, and I believe in that year profit
share was 0% (or close to it.) =A0When I had started, in 1979,
profit share was 16% and the folks who had been there when I
arrived said that was down from about a more usual figure of
about 20%.

The iceberg had hit the titanic, the hull ripped, but she was
hadn't yet sunk. =A0But we could see the inevitable.

Jon

As you almost certainly know (but others may not), Tek had spent
several buckets of money dabbling in various fields of endevor
(medical electronics, mechanics instrumentation,...) and when it
didn't pay off quick got cold feet and left with big losses.

When a group of EEs got together and tried to sell Tek management
on the idea of producing home computers [this is before the IBM PC -
close to the inception of the Apple II] - Tek management was
impressed by their idea, but insistent that Tek didn't want to compete
in a more commodity market.

In short, Tek management didn't have a clue. They were too
comfortable with what they knew to tolerate much risk in new areas,
though they had the resources to try many different things.

I disagree. If you are good at one thing, it doesn't mean you are good
at other things. Look at Microsoft; they are struggling to get into
other markets but they are not very succesful.

If you ever open an Tektronix product you'll find very well engineered
electronics but far from low cost. If Tektronix would have ventured
into a commodity market they would have lost big time.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joel said:
The low-end of their market has become a commodity anyway; scopes below
some hundreds of MHz for both Tek and Agilent are now largely designed
and entirely produced off-shores by contractors.

I was just gonna say that ... :)

Nico, have you ever looked inside a TDS-2xx series scope? If you ever do
place a box of tissues next to you, for when tears well up in your eyes.
 
By the time Danaher got to them, the real criminals were long
gone.  The bean-counters that had done the largest damage to
Tek, anyway.

In and around the year 1982, Tek had about 24,000 employees
and their gross revenue was almost $1.4 billion.  This worked
out to something like $62k/employee.  In that same year,
IBM's figure was near $125k/employee.  I was making on the
order of $36k, that year, and I believe in that year profit
share was 0% (or close to it.)  When I had started, in 1979,
profit share was 16% and the folks who had been there when I
arrived said that was down from about a more usual figure of
about 20%.

I'd been there about four years at the time and I have to say
that from the down-in-the-trenches place I lived -- 3 manager
levels inserted between me and the president -- I couldn't
have noticed better loyalties.  I almost never saw an empty
office on saturdays or even sundays when I would also stop in
to work towards a calendar target I'd been given.  I didn't
mind contributing to that spirit, either.  It was wonderful
to be a part of and I felt good about playing a small role
shouldering work with others, too.

Not that it was a majority working week-ends, or that all
week-ends were filled with busy little elves making santa's
toys.  People had lives.  We were all part of something and
we had an identity.  We knew who we were and that was part of
a whole team.  Some of that team were able to make extra time
sometimes.  Some weren't.  But we never doubted the whole
team we were part of.  We just each played the roles we
could, when we could.

The bean-counters were not so blind they couldn't see a bad
gross revenue per employee ratio.  Especially since that is
one of the easiest and first calculations the MBAs there made
each year.  However, apparently, they had a very difficult
time measuring this sense of pride and spirit and work ethic
and it never showed up in their 10k report where only numbers
and ratios make the grade.

By the end of 1981, the bean-counters on the board level
hatched some plans.  They didn't believe in themselves,
didn't trust their own ability or the executive staff's
ability to take risks and succeed.  And they didn't believe
in their employees or undertand the sense of place and
identity a great many of us had there, and what that could
mean when and if the executives chose to ask us to push hard
and get something done for them.

They could ask and I think many of us would have gone the
extra mile, instantly, had they merely said they have a goal
and need us to push towards it.  That's something you can't
write down on a 10k report, but it sure is something that can
make a huge difference if you set your mind to achieving
important goals and need the rank-and-file to get behind you
to get a job done.

Profit share was down.  Gross-revenue-per-empoyee was a mess.
Another factor loomed to the board of directors.  Leveraged
buyouts were increasingly in the news and a serious danger to
Tek around that time.  Tek had, circa 1982, $600 million
dollars at US National Bank.  On their 10k report, it was
also clear that Tek had no short term or long term debt. They
were debt free, flush in cash, and looked about like slab of
juicy meat to an LBO-buyout-dog.  The board decided to act, I
think, starting in 1981 and continuing forward to begin
buying their own stock shares back.  I don't remember the
budgets set aside for that, but the amounts were huge and
intended to draw down some of that $600 million and become
less of a target.

But to get the gross-revenue-per-employee figure back up, I
think it was in 1982 that they also offered early retirement
to over 800 employees as a step to try before going on to
change an old policy and start firing people, wholesale.

You see, stories I heard when arriving were that if your job
wasn't needed anymore, Tek would allow you quite a long time
to run around the company and find some other area where they
needed you.  And they would maintain some kind of salary for
you, too.  That was quite a sense of security to have.

What shocked the board (I spoke with a board member for hours
about this), was that just about all of them took the early
retirement offer -- 795 is the figure I remember... in any
case, it was nearly 800.  And the offer was made to some 820,
or so.  Jim Castles told me that executive staff had planned
to that about 200 would.

I spoke personally with Jim Castles about this, who was on
the board.  This conversation was in late 1983, while I was
running about securing venture capital (seed money) for a new
business I'd decided to start with four others.  In the
process, the capitalist types put me in touch with Jim, but
the discussion turned to the subject of Tektronix for a bit.
(We succeeded, by the way, and launched a new company and a
product that was rated top in its class in national
publications.  But that is another story for another time.)

I had been seeing what had happened to Tek in a short year or
two, before leaving.  People were actually being let go,
without any time to find other work.  Profit share was 0.
People showing up on weekends had significantly dropped.
Loyalty was falling.  Etc.  That was the context.

But I could not believe my ears, early in talking with Jim.
Apparently, they just wanted to avoid being an LBO target and
also to get the gross revenue/employee figure up.  Buying
stock was the decision to inhibit the LBO part.  Early
retirement and a change in employee policy allowing them to
just fire people with two weeks' notice was another.

But it was so obvious to me those were bean-counter steps,
not the steps of what you expect from top leadership in a
company.  It's the kind of thing a CPA might do.  But not the
kind of thing a captain of industry does.

(1)  Never buy your own stock back.  You sell stock because
you know how to do more with money than others do.  That's
why you are in business.  If the best thing you can do with
your cash is buy your own stock, you should find something
else to do.

(2)  $600 million in cash in a bank and no debt is a good
thing, not a bad thing.  Yes, you might be easy pickings as
an LBO target, but the solution isn't to throw the cash away
buying stock.  The answer is to put that money together with
the money of others and do something with it.  Be an active,
not a passive, manager of it.  Tek had no debt.  They could
have easily secured another $2 billion on their credit and
lack of debt and the fact that they could also contribute
that $600 million (it was NOT set aside for payroll, in case
you are wondering ... this was cash over and above operating
cash levels.)  Going into debt is a great way to avoid being
a target.

The question is... what to do with all that.

Gee.  I don't know.  Let's see.  Tek's bean-counters figure
there are too many employees.  Maybe 10,000 too many by that
revenue/employee ratio, or more.  Tek could muster $2.5
billion in a matter of a months' time.  What a place to be!!

This means they would be able to enter any business arena,
cold turkey, with 10,000 employees already hired up and in
their seats, $2.5 billion dollars in cash to move forward on,
and... well...  it was so clear to me because of all the work
I'd been doing, struggling for venture capital... that this
was a situation ANYONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would have drooled
for.  It's like a wet dream.  Who wouldn't want to have an
army of loyal employees, willing to work weekends if needed,
ready to go and 2.5 billion in cash to push along in some
direction???  Cripes.  That's what everyone wishes for,
dreams about, and never gets to have.  And here Tek was,
sitting on this possibility and deciding to bean count
themselves into the ground, instead.

It made no sense.

And I told Jim that, standing there next to him simply
shocked as I began to learn the fuller picture.  I was
working my ass off for $1 million.  It was like pulling
teeth.  Those venture types were brutal about it, too.  And
here I was learning the details of a company that was two
inches of vencture capital heaven, fully in their control,
and they were walking in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION!!  I was
flabbergasted.  Damn, would I have killed for that!!

The problem was, they didn't believe in themselves.  To
succeed, you don't have to make the best decisions.  You just
have to be able to make the decisions you do make, work out
much of the time.  If you can navigate reasonably well, even
if the course you set isn't perfect, you will do okay.  But
they didn't even believe that about themselves.  They were
scared and had no confidence about managing that wonderful
situation they were in.

Some answers to the revenue/employee question are "get the
revenue up, keeping the employees the same"  Another is "lose
employees, keeping the revenue the same."  Apparently, the
only thing they felt confident to do was "lose employees."
But with that kind of cash availability in hand and the
existing employees, they could have chosen the other route --
had they had confidence in themselves to manage the needed
steps moving forward.  But they didn't believe in themselves
about setting such a course.  So they let that opportunity go
and instead chose to sail the company into the rocks,
instead, further ruining loyalties of some very good people
and letting go the core of all of those who'd been there 20
years and more and who formed the nervous system within the
company that _I_ relied upon when I needed to know who to go
to on some subject.  They gutted, via early retirement; the
bought their own stock back rather than going into debt for
some new, confident business direction, and they started a
two week notice practice besides.

Damn, what anyone wouldn't have done to be able to pull
together billions of dollars and thousands of vetted
employees willing to work weenends for them.  And they had
that right there, sitting on the table in front of them.  And
because they didn't believe in themselves enough, because
they doubted their abilities, they pushed that away and chose
a bean-counter's approach.

The sad thing to me is that in late 1983, all that was clear
as crystal.  Jim didn't argue with me.  We just stood there
sadly discussing this disaster.  At the time we were talking,
I think there were still about 22 thousand employees, which
Tek was actively working downwards.  Much of the banked money
was gone.  The 20+ year employees gutted out of the company.

The iceberg had hit the titanic, the hull ripped, but she was
hadn't yet sunk.  But we could see the inevitable.

Jon

As you almost certainly know (but others may not), Tek had spent
several buckets of money dabbling in various fields of endevor
(medical electronics, mechanics instrumentation,...) and when it
didn't pay off quick got cold feet and left with big losses.

When a group of EEs got together and tried to sell Tek management
on the idea of producing home computers [this is before the IBM PC -
close to the inception of the Apple II] - Tek management was
impressed by their idea, but insistent that Tek didn't want to compete
in a more commodity market.

In short, Tek management didn't have a clue. They were too
comfortable with what they knew to tolerate much risk in new areas,
though they had the resources to try many different things.

Perhaps they were right. IBM didn't make any money on PCs either.
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Perhaps they were right. IBM didn't make any money on PCs either.

The main theme of my point, though, isn't about whether or
not Tek mgmt was right or wrong about actions they decided
NOT to take. It was about what fantastic opportunity they
had for taking forward action and instead chosing to shrink
back out of poor self-confidence and lack of vision --
reduced thereby to taking mere rear guard actions only until
there was little left to worry about.

If you don't know what to do with 10,000 highly technical and
reasonably well-trained workers sitting in their desks
already hired up and ready to go and 2-3 billion dollars of
instantly ready cash, you really should NOT be in business at
all.

It is a place to drool for. And they could only worry
themselves to death, instead.

Jon
 
...although if they hadn't made PCs, I suspect there's a good chance they'd be
completely out of business today?

No. Other than being excellent terminals, PCs were a total waste of time for
IBM. That really was their justification in the first place. The original PC
was about the same price as a semi-dumb terminal of the time.
Today they certainly sell plenty of PCs, even if they are pretty much all
high-end workstations and servers.

Nope. They sell some x-86 servers but the PC business was sold (take it -
please!) to Lenovo.
...but they probably make more money on services, today...

The PC division didn't make money (there were years they did, but overall,
no). They're still in business servicing other's PCs, so one supposes they're
making money there.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
No. Other than being excellent terminals, PCs were a total waste of time for
IBM. That really was their justification in the first place. The original PC
was about the same price as a semi-dumb terminal of the time.

Not in Europe and that was one of the problems. Even with roughly
half-off for employees the clones were still cheaper.

Nope. They sell some x-86 servers but the PC business was sold (take it -
please!) to Lenovo.


The PC division didn't make money (there were years they did, but overall,
no). They're still in business servicing other's PCs, so one supposes they're
making money there.


If they hadn't artificially tried to keep prices very high I think they
would have had a chance. Somehow it seemed similar what later happened
with a whole genre of chips, the switched capacitor filters. I used them
once on a design, where I had to. Tons of other apps later but there I
went analog or DSP. The only reason was cost.
 
Not in Europe and that was one of the problems. Even with roughly
half-off for employees the clones were still cheaper.

Huh? IBM's product justification had nothing to do with the competition's
prices.
If they hadn't artificially tried to keep prices very high I think they
would have had a chance. Somehow it seemed similar what later happened
with a whole genre of chips, the switched capacitor filters. I used them
once on a design, where I had to. Tons of other apps later but there I
went analog or DSP. The only reason was cost.

If they hadn't tried to keep their niche they would have lost more money,
faster. You may think Microchannel was a loser, but from IBM's perspective,
and their customer's, it was exactly what was needed[*]. It did a great job
of P-n-P long before such was possible otherwise.

[*]Note that you and I were not in their target audience.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Huh? IBM's product justification had nothing to do with the competition's
prices.

They should have paid attention to those though.

If they hadn't artificially tried to keep prices very high I think they
would have had a chance. Somehow it seemed similar what later happened
with a whole genre of chips, the switched capacitor filters. I used them
once on a design, where I had to. Tons of other apps later but there I
went analog or DSP. The only reason was cost.

If they hadn't tried to keep their niche they would have lost more money,
faster. You may think Microchannel was a loser, but from IBM's perspective,
and their customer's, it was exactly what was needed[*]. It did a great job
of P-n-P long before such was possible otherwise.

[*]Note that you and I were not in their target audience.


Then, who was? I was a consultant most of the time back then so I got
around. Never saw much in terms of PS/2 'puters and none of the hardcore
board developers was talking MicroChannel.

I was eyeing OS/2 when I was young but there were two obstacles IBM
could have done something about. It was expensive, so for someone just
starting out self-employed other grass looked greener. Then there were a
few weird compatibility issues, some stuff wouldn't work under OS/2 but
I needed it to work. Then it all shriveled up, and I wasn't really
surprised. Sometimes I wish I could be da big boss at a company just for
one year, be given a huge broom, and clean house :)
 
They should have paid attention to those though.

IBM's market was always people with money. ;-) When they got in trouble was
when they forgot that.
Today they certainly sell plenty of PCs, even if they are pretty much all
high-end workstations and servers.
Nope. They sell some x-86 servers but the PC business was sold (take it -
please!) to Lenovo.

...but they probably make more money on services, today...
The PC division didn't make money (there were years they did, but overall,
no). They're still in business servicing other's PCs, so one supposes they're
making money there.

If they hadn't artificially tried to keep prices very high I think they
would have had a chance. Somehow it seemed similar what later happened
with a whole genre of chips, the switched capacitor filters. I used them
once on a design, where I had to. Tons of other apps later but there I
went analog or DSP. The only reason was cost.

If they hadn't tried to keep their niche they would have lost more money,
faster. You may think Microchannel was a loser, but from IBM's perspective,
and their customer's, it was exactly what was needed[*]. It did a great job
of P-n-P long before such was possible otherwise.

[*]Note that you and I were not in their target audience.


Then, who was?

Oh, "INTERNATIONAL BUSINESSes". ;-) Other than things like CATIA and similar
(customers like Boeing) they never did well in the engineering or scientific
arenas. Banks wore the same clothes and have more money anyway.
I was a consultant most of the time back then so I got
around. Never saw much in terms of PS/2 'puters and none of the hardcore
board developers was talking MicroChannel.

Again, you weren't in their target audience.
I was eyeing OS/2 when I was young but there were two obstacles IBM
could have done something about. It was expensive, so for someone just
starting out self-employed other grass looked greener. Then there were a
few weird compatibility issues, some stuff wouldn't work under OS/2 but
I needed it to work. Then it all shriveled up, and I wasn't really
surprised. Sometimes I wish I could be da big boss at a company just for
one year, be given a huge broom, and clean house :)

I used OS/2 exclusively from DOS7 to Win2K. It worked well enough for me. It
kinda got like Linux today; superior, but doesn't work. ;-)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
They should have paid attention to those though.

IBM's market was always people with money. ;-) When they got in trouble was
when they forgot that.
Today they certainly sell plenty of PCs, even if they are pretty much all
high-end workstations and servers.
Nope. They sell some x-86 servers but the PC business was sold (take it -
please!) to Lenovo.

...but they probably make more money on services, today...
The PC division didn't make money (there were years they did, but overall,
no). They're still in business servicing other's PCs, so one supposes they're
making money there.
If they hadn't artificially tried to keep prices very high I think they
would have had a chance. Somehow it seemed similar what later happened
with a whole genre of chips, the switched capacitor filters. I used them
once on a design, where I had to. Tons of other apps later but there I
went analog or DSP. The only reason was cost.
If they hadn't tried to keep their niche they would have lost more money,
faster. You may think Microchannel was a loser, but from IBM's perspective,
and their customer's, it was exactly what was needed[*]. It did a great job
of P-n-P long before such was possible otherwise.

[*]Note that you and I were not in their target audience.

Then, who was?

Oh, "INTERNATIONAL BUSINESSes". ;-) Other than things like CATIA and similar
(customers like Boeing) they never did well in the engineering or scientific
arenas. Banks wore the same clothes and have more money anyway.

They did really well in the mainframe days, IBM had a reputation to make
things work. Many of they large competitors often couldn't. But somehow
IBM never really thrived in the PC business. Maybe too much key-account
thinking on their part?

Again, you weren't in their target audience.

Some of the companies I consulted for where rather huge. Ok, but if they
concentrated on the few even bigger ones then maybe that was a mistake.

I used OS/2 exclusively from DOS7 to Win2K. It worked well enough for me. It
kinda got like Linux today; superior, but doesn't work. ;-)


It was probably ok when just computing. But folks like me had to hook
custom-designed hardware into PCs and there things better be compatible.
Beamformers, scan converters, stuff like that.
 
[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:38:13 -0700, "Joel Koltner"

Perhaps they were right. IBM didn't make any money on PCs either.
...although if they hadn't made PCs, I suspect there's a good chance they'd be
completely out of business today?
No. Other than being excellent terminals, PCs were a total waste of time for
IBM. That really was their justification in the first place. The original PC
was about the same price as a semi-dumb terminal of the time.

Not in Europe and that was one of the problems. Even with roughly
half-off for employees the clones were still cheaper.
Huh? IBM's product justification had nothing to do with the competition's
prices.

They should have paid attention to those though.

IBM's market was always people with money. ;-) When they got in trouble was
when they forgot that.
Today they certainly sell plenty of PCs, even if they are pretty much all
high-end workstations and servers.
Nope. They sell some x-86 servers but the PC business was sold (take it -
please!) to Lenovo.

...but they probably make more money on services, today...
The PC division didn't make money (there were years they did, but overall,
no). They're still in business servicing other's PCs, so one supposes they're
making money there.
If they hadn't artificially tried to keep prices very high I think they
would have had a chance. Somehow it seemed similar what later happened
with a whole genre of chips, the switched capacitor filters. I used them
once on a design, where I had to. Tons of other apps later but there I
went analog or DSP. The only reason was cost.
If they hadn't tried to keep their niche they would have lost more money,
faster. You may think Microchannel was a loser, but from IBM's perspective,
and their customer's, it was exactly what was needed[*]. It did a great job
of P-n-P long before such was possible otherwise.

[*]Note that you and I were not in their target audience.

Then, who was?

Oh, "INTERNATIONAL BUSINESSes". ;-) Other than things like CATIA and similar
(customers like Boeing) they never did well in the engineering or scientific
arenas. Banks wore the same clothes and have more money anyway.

They did really well in the mainframe days, IBM had a reputation to make
things work. Many of they large competitors often couldn't. But somehow
IBM never really thrived in the PC business. Maybe too much key-account
thinking on their part?

Oh, there was *definitely* that. In the semiconductor biz there were times
where I think they were emulating Maxim, or perhaps going them one better. "No
one needs all these damned customers. They cost money!"
Some of the companies I consulted for where rather huge. Ok, but if they
concentrated on the few even bigger ones then maybe that was a mistake.

If you weren't buying mainframes, or later their consultancy, you weren't big
enough.
It was probably ok when just computing. But folks like me had to hook
custom-designed hardware into PCs and there things better be compatible.
Beamformers, scan converters, stuff like that.

Custom hardware wasn't a problem, or any more of a problem than it is with Win
or Linux today. ATMs ran on it for a couple of decades. Commodity hardware
*was* the problem. No one wanted to support it.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:38:13 -0700, "Joel Koltner"

Perhaps they were right. IBM didn't make any money on PCs either.
...although if they hadn't made PCs, I suspect there's a good chance they'd be
completely out of business today?
No. Other than being excellent terminals, PCs were a total waste of time for
IBM. That really was their justification in the first place. The original PC
was about the same price as a semi-dumb terminal of the time.

Not in Europe and that was one of the problems. Even with roughly
half-off for employees the clones were still cheaper.
Huh? IBM's product justification had nothing to do with the competition's
prices.

They should have paid attention to those though.
IBM's market was always people with money. ;-) When they got in trouble was
when they forgot that.

Today they certainly sell plenty of PCs, even if they are pretty much all
high-end workstations and servers.
Nope. They sell some x-86 servers but the PC business was sold (take it -
please!) to Lenovo.

...but they probably make more money on services, today...
The PC division didn't make money (there were years they did, but overall,
no). They're still in business servicing other's PCs, so one supposes they're
making money there.
If they hadn't artificially tried to keep prices very high I think they
would have had a chance. Somehow it seemed similar what later happened
with a whole genre of chips, the switched capacitor filters. I used them
once on a design, where I had to. Tons of other apps later but there I
went analog or DSP. The only reason was cost.
If they hadn't tried to keep their niche they would have lost more money,
faster. You may think Microchannel was a loser, but from IBM's perspective,
and their customer's, it was exactly what was needed[*]. It did a great job
of P-n-P long before such was possible otherwise.

[*]Note that you and I were not in their target audience.
Then, who was?
Oh, "INTERNATIONAL BUSINESSes". ;-) Other than things like CATIA and similar
(customers like Boeing) they never did well in the engineering or scientific
arenas. Banks wore the same clothes and have more money anyway.
They did really well in the mainframe days, IBM had a reputation to make
things work. Many of they large competitors often couldn't. But somehow
IBM never really thrived in the PC business. Maybe too much key-account
thinking on their part?

Oh, there was *definitely* that. In the semiconductor biz there were times
where I think they were emulating Maxim, or perhaps going them one better. "No
one needs all these damned customers. They cost money!"
Some of the companies I consulted for where rather huge. Ok, but if they
concentrated on the few even bigger ones then maybe that was a mistake.

If you weren't buying mainframes, or later their consultancy, you weren't big
enough.

And that was the key mistake. Companies of larger and larger sizes no
longer needed mainframes. The writing had been on the wall for a long,
long time.

Custom hardware wasn't a problem, or any more of a problem than it is with Win
or Linux today. ATMs ran on it for a couple of decades. ...


Yes, if you make one dedicated product and then not change its design
for a decade or so. That was different in our biz, we made sure we were
flexible WRT the PC platform. Not so much for pricing reasons but to be
able to use the latest and greatest in imaging stations. No way we'd
ever even consider a proprietary bus or OS.

... Commodity hardware
*was* the problem. No one wanted to support it.


Yep, that's the other problem. 50% plus of an ultrasound machine can
nowadays be commodity products. Frame grabbers, special graphics cards
and so on. That stuff has got to run. Even if a vendor would support
some proprietary bus or OS, if they did that with only a few months
delay that would have made us miss a major trade show. No way we were
going to let that happen.
 

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