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Dealing with Customers in Electronics Design

D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Once I've profiled my customer as "problematic", I immediately start
charging for time to clarify the design request.
(Block diagrams, flow chart whatever..)
Or.......
Sometimes I'll give a customer exactly what they describe. I don't ask
for the purpose nor do I fit the electronics to the app.
When the customer realizes that they goofed by not giving the designer
not enough information, I make more money $$$ by charging for design
changes...
So.... foolish customers with $$$ = profit... :)
So I like everybody...the smart customers and the foolish ones. :)

Is this sneaky?
Is it a 'give'm what they want no hassles' approach?
Does this help when customers want to keep the app private?
Is this risky for reputation damage?..
A happy customer gets a PCB that does the job.
Whereas, a clueless customer getting exactly what asked for and later
it's discovered that it's not enough and the designer looks bad.
D from BC
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
Once I've profiled my customer as "problematic", I immediately start
charging for time to clarify the design request.
(Block diagrams, flow chart whatever..)

Absolutely reasonable.
Sometimes I'll give a customer exactly what they describe. I don't ask
for the purpose nor do I fit the electronics to the app.
When the customer realizes that they goofed by not giving the designer
not enough information, I make more money $$$ by charging for design
changes...

Many professional engineering organizations would consider that sort of
behavior unethical and would probably be willing to testify against you if one
of your clients chose to sue you. :)
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Absolutely reasonable.


Many professional engineering organizations would consider that sort of
behavior unethical and would probably be willing to testify against you if one
of your clients chose to sue you. :)

Joel, You need to face reality. Many clients are obstinate in their
requirements, no matter the physical realizability.

The way I handle it is with a (generally) two week "specification"
phase, where I create a block diagram and a real specification from
the customer's "requirements".

The rules of the game are... at the end of the specification phase,
either I or the customer can walk away. However the customer must pay
for this phase.

It actually usually works out quite well... the customer (and I) end
up with a realistic/realizable specification.

Of course you still end up with the chip that meets the specification,
but the customer admits, "That's not really what I meant" ;-)

Then there are the customers who walk away, saying your price is too
high. So they go with the low-bidder. A year or so later they
return, quite in the panic... "fix it quick" = premium price ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
P

PeteS

Jan 1, 1970
0
D said:
Once I've profiled my customer as "problematic", I immediately start
charging for time to clarify the design request.
(Block diagrams, flow chart whatever..)

As Joel said, perfectly reasonable. I don't necessarily wait for them to
be 'problematic'; I usually write it into the contract that spec changes
will incur costs at the standard hourly rate unless there is some other
provision such as a fixed fee per change (where change is strictly defined).
Or.......
Sometimes I'll give a customer exactly what they describe. I don't ask
for the purpose nor do I fit the electronics to the app.
When the customer realizes that they goofed by not giving the designer
not enough information, I make more money $$$ by charging for design
changes...
So.... foolish customers with $$$ = profit... :)
So I like everybody...the smart customers and the foolish ones. :)

Is this sneaky?
Is it a 'give'm what they want no hassles' approach?
Does this help when customers want to keep the app private?
Is this risky for reputation damage?..
A happy customer gets a PCB that does the job.
Whereas, a clueless customer getting exactly what asked for and later
it's discovered that it's not enough and the designer looks bad.
D from BC

I would tell the customer that I have insufficient information to
produce a working design. That's another part of the contract; I have to
be given sufficient information to produce what they want. That may
sound obvious, but I've had a few where I had to pull that one out.

I wouldn't just 'do whatever they said' and give them something that
doesn't work.

Cheers

PeteS
 
J

john jardine

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
Once I've profiled my customer as "problematic", I immediately start
charging for time to clarify the design request.
(Block diagrams, flow chart whatever..)
Or.......
Sometimes I'll give a customer exactly what they describe. I don't ask
for the purpose nor do I fit the electronics to the app.
When the customer realizes that they goofed by not giving the designer
not enough information, I make more money $$$ by charging for design
changes...
So.... foolish customers with $$$ = profit... :)
So I like everybody...the smart customers and the foolish ones. :)

Is this sneaky?
Is it a 'give'm what they want no hassles' approach?
Does this help when customers want to keep the app private?
Is this risky for reputation damage?..
A happy customer gets a PCB that does the job.
Whereas, a clueless customer getting exactly what asked for and later
it's discovered that it's not enough and the designer looks bad.
D from BC

For 'problem' customers it's an approach that will lose repeat business.
Always set out the options. Point out the clear shining path they need to
follow. This must be done at initial contact over a telephone or at a first
meeting before any cost have been run up.
Within the first 10 minutes you must demonstrate you understand their
specialist needs/problems even better than them. Win 'em over and they move
from being "problematic" to just plain 'ole awkward bastards :).
john
 
H

Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sometimes I'll give a customer exactly what they describe. I don't ask
for the purpose nor do I fit the electronics to the app.
When the customer realizes that they goofed by not giving the designer
not enough information, I make more money $$$ by charging for design
changes...

It's almost always like that with software. They never know what they want
until you meet the agreed on specs. Then they tell you that isn't it.
 
T

Tim Wescott

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Joel, You need to face reality. Many clients are obstinate in their
requirements, no matter the physical realizability.

The way I handle it is with a (generally) two week "specification"
phase, where I create a block diagram and a real specification from
the customer's "requirements".

The rules of the game are... at the end of the specification phase,
either I or the customer can walk away. However the customer must pay
for this phase.
-- snip --

Some customers come to me knowing the process, and basically say "we
don't know what it'll take & we don't expect you to either". For them,
I just charge my rate.

Some customers want (or must have) a more detailed bid. For them I
gently tell them that I'm slow, and I just don't have enough information
to do a reasonable bid. Then I promise them (and deliver) a
specification that'll be good enough for them to shop around to other
contractors if they so desire.

So far I've never had one go elsewhere, but if it should happen I'll
still have my money for writing the detailed specification.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Many professional engineering organizations would consider that sort of
behavior unethical and would probably be willing to testify against you if one
of your clients chose to sue you. :)

The reason a customer comes to a designer is, presumably, because in
context the designer is smarter than they are. That's what they pay
for. If you take advantage of the situation, and purposely run the
cost up because of their "stupidity", that is indeed unethical. It's
also rotten, and bad for repeat business.

Anybody who deliberately does crappy work, to run up the tab and play
the change game, is a jerk.

John
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Absolutely reasonable.


Many professional engineering organizations would consider that sort of
behavior unethical and would probably be willing to testify against you if one
of your clients chose to sue you. :)

I can imagine the court case:

You Honor...
My client is a dummy..
Function Z was requested, spec'd, approved and later rejected.
I created a PCB with electronic functions X Y and Z as agreed.
Yes, I was aware that function Z was stupid but I did it anyways
because that was the requirement.
Yes, I do conduit my business in a manner that profits by allowing dum
design requests..
In an effort to save time, I avoided saying how dum function Z was.
That's where I draw the line.
It might seem exploitive but my client is only paying for functions
X, Y and Z and NOT a consultation for the entire product nor my
opinions of function Z.
Replacing function Z with functions Q and R cost extra.
..........
However...I should mention that if it's a project involving safety
then I voice any and every concern..
D from BC
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
The reason a customer comes to a designer is, presumably, because in
context the designer is smarter than they are. That's what they pay
for. If you take advantage of the situation, and purposely run the
cost up because of their "stupidity", that is indeed unethical. It's
also rotten, and bad for repeat business.

Anybody who deliberately does crappy work, to run up the tab and play
the change game, is a jerk.

John

I should have mentioned this earlier...
I'm giving the impression I do deliberate crappy work. :)
It's not quite like that..
I can do a design as spec'd... It works great. Customer is happy..
However,during a design I sometimes forecast changes the customer will
want..
But I don't implement that in the design nor do I mention my forecast.
Then the customer requests the changes as forecasted.
Then zingggg!! $$$$ Extra charges for the changes.
What about the ethics of that?
Sneakyness for profit?
Gambling?
D from BC
 
T

Tim Wescott

Jan 1, 1970
0
D said:
I should have mentioned this earlier...
I'm giving the impression I do deliberate crappy work. :)
It's not quite like that..
I can do a design as spec'd... It works great. Customer is happy..
However,during a design I sometimes forecast changes the customer will
want..
But I don't implement that in the design nor do I mention my forecast.
Then the customer requests the changes as forecasted.
Then zingggg!! $$$$ Extra charges for the changes.
What about the ethics of that?
Sneakyness for profit?
Gambling?
D from BC

I try to point out that sort of thing early: "y'know, when all is said
and done you're going to want to do it this way".

Then I let them decide whether they want to change things right then, or
later.

If they see my point, I've made brownie points, and I get repeat
business. I figure that for the amount that I demand, part of what I do
should be to minimize the time that I spend.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
I can imagine the court case:

You Honor...
My client is a dummy..
Function Z was requested, spec'd, approved and later rejected.
I created a PCB with electronic functions X Y and Z as agreed.
Yes, I was aware that function Z was stupid but I did it anyways
because that was the requirement.
Yes, I do conduit my business in a manner that profits by allowing dum
design requests..
In an effort to save time, I avoided saying how dum function Z was.
That's where I draw the line.
It might seem exploitive but my client is only paying for functions
X, Y and Z and NOT a consultation for the entire product nor my
opinions of function Z.
Replacing function Z with functions Q and R cost extra.
.........
However...I should mention that if it's a project involving safety
then I voice any and every concern..
D from BC

You've perhaps heard of GM's "limp home" function when you car's CPU
shoots craps.

Wonder who it was that forced that to happen ?:)

...Jim Thompson
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I should have mentioned this earlier...
I'm giving the impression I do deliberate crappy work. :)
It's not quite like that..
I can do a design as spec'd... It works great. Customer is happy..
However,during a design I sometimes forecast changes the customer will
want..
But I don't implement that in the design nor do I mention my forecast.
Then the customer requests the changes as forecasted.
Then zingggg!! $$$$ Extra charges for the changes.
What about the ethics of that?
Sneakyness for profit?
Gambling?


I wouldn't do that. At the beginning of a project, I try to find out
as much as I can about the customer, his science/technology, his
competitors, and what performance is normal in his business. Sometimes
I buy books or hit the library and cram about NMR, xray detectors,
microchannel plates, RPM sensors, whatever he uses, so I know
something about his business and pick up a few juicy buzzwords. And
when we meet, I try to make every possible suggestion to make his
product better, and warn him of anything that might concern me. If
later we trip across a potential problem, we feel obligated to tell
the customer ASAP, so we don't sandbag his time to market. The few
bucks you make, witholding something you know is missing, may cost him
a thousand times as much.

I've worked this way with several big scientific and aerospace
companies, and they have come back for more... many, many times.
Sometimes they're shocked that we are completely honest with them. If
we do charge for NRE, we do it and don't go back for more.

We did that today, visiting a boutique radar company in Livermore. We
delivered a loaner product and I asked them about their requirements
for a spec that I know our product may be weak on, and told them what
we can and can't do.

John
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I can imagine the court case:

You Honor...
My client is a dummy..
Function Z was requested, spec'd, approved and later rejected.
I created a PCB with electronic functions X Y and Z as agreed.
Yes, I was aware that function Z was stupid but I did it anyways
because that was the requirement.
Yes, I do conduit my business in a manner that profits by allowing dum
design requests..
In an effort to save time, I avoided saying how dum function Z was.
That's where I draw the line.
It might seem exploitive but my client is only paying for functions
X, Y and Z and NOT a consultation for the entire product nor my
opinions of function Z.
Replacing function Z with functions Q and R cost extra.
.........
However...I should mention that if it's a project involving safety
then I voice any and every concern..

Well, for one thing, that's what contracts are for, and one other
thing I really want to stress:

Were you hired as a "designer", or merely an implementor? There's
quite a difference, you know.

Cheers!
Rich
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
I should have mentioned this earlier...
I'm giving the impression I do deliberate crappy work. :)
It's not quite like that..
I can do a design as spec'd... It works great. Customer is happy..
However,during a design I sometimes forecast changes the customer will
want..
But I don't implement that in the design nor do I mention my forecast.
Then the customer requests the changes as forecasted.
Then zingggg!! $$$$ Extra charges for the changes.
What about the ethics of that?
Sneakyness for profit?
Gambling?
D from BC

If you do a good enough job of understanding customer needs, maybe you
can charge enough to do it right the first time and still come out
ahead.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you do a good enough job of understanding customer needs, maybe you
can charge enough to do it right the first time and still come out
ahead.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

I do favour -do it right the first time- for my own projects.
But with customers...I dunno..
I've had projects that never seem to stop improving. So there may not
be a do-it-right-the-first-time....There's just good-enough-for-now..
Sure...I'll forecast many improvements but not do them...There may not
be time.. The clock is ticking and Ding!...good enough..
To customer after I get check, "By the way I have improvement ideas
for xyz, it'll cost x dollars if you're interested"...
Sounds shady doesn't it? :)
D from BC
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well, for one thing, that's what contracts are for, and one other
thing I really want to stress:

Were you hired as a "designer", or merely an implementor? There's
quite a difference, you know.

Cheers!
Rich

Huh??
Do you mean..
A designer...as in thinking about everything...
An implementor...as in thinking about the implement?

So....maybe I can bid like this..
Designer price: $5000.00
Implementor price: $1000.00
D from BC
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I can imagine the court case:

You Honor...
My client is a dummy..

Yeah, that sounds like a great way to get future business.

John
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yeah, that sounds like a great way to get future business.

John

It was a wish I could say it like that type of thing... :)
Besides, a client that takes me to court for no good reason is going
to be called something...

In court it probably would be:
"My client has the special ability to not know what electronics best
fits the application."
Sound better :)
D from BC
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
It was a wish I could say it like that type of thing... :)
Besides, a client that takes me to court for no good reason is going
to be called something...

I think it would be very unusual, at least in the US, for a client to
sue you over poor quality services. What they'd usually do is just go
away. It's even rare for a business to not pay a bill, even if they're
not happy with your services, and especially if you charge by the
hour.

In court it probably would be:
"My client has the special ability to not know what electronics best
fits the application."
Sound better :)

Of course your client knows less about electronics than you do. That's
the point of their seeking presumably professional help. Knowing more
than them puts obligations on *you*.

John
 
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