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EE educations, worldwide?

Let's say for instance that you have a friend or co-worker who has a
son/daughter who's interested in studying abroad (outside of the USA),
in electrical or computer engineering.

Where are the better schools?

I'm guessing that schools in Germany and France would be superior to
schools in the UK, but that's just a guess (mostly from the idea that
just about anyone can call him/herself an "engineer" in the UK).
True? False?

Michael
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Let's say for instance that you have a friend or co-worker who has a
son/daughter who's interested in studying abroad (outside of the USA),
in electrical or computer engineering.

Where are the better schools?

I'm guessing that schools in Germany and France would be superior to
schools in the UK, but that's just a guess (mostly from the idea that
just about anyone can call him/herself an "engineer" in the UK).
True? False?

Nah, most EU foreigners I work with in the US came from UK schools.
Pretty darn good, I'd say. Solid theoretical background.

Germany has good ones as well but they are also tough. They had (have?)
the two-strike law: Fail a test twice and you are out, in my days banned
from any university there for the same career path. Maxwell's stuff
almost got me. About 75%-80% of students at my university (RWTH Aachen)
did not make it into engineering because they either threw in the towel
or got "weeded out".

Also, while this is an excellent way to become multi-cultural and all
that, if they ever want to eye a job that requires a P.E. I guess you
can pretty much forget the whole thing. Advisers rarely tell people that
but I believe it can become a huge obstacle. So for civil engineering
I'd personally not do that. Unless you want to work abroad since that
kind of red tape doesn't exist in most other countries.
 
Let's say for instance that you have a friend or co-worker who has a
son/daughter who's interested in studying abroad (outside of the USA),
in electrical or computer engineering.

Where are the better schools?

I'm guessing that schools in Germany and France would be superior to
schools in the UK, but that's just a guess (mostly from the idea that
just about anyone can call him/herself an "engineer" in the UK).
True? False?

Well.. calling oneself an "engineer" and having a BEng degree are two
completely different things. Indeed, I have a BEng degree and people
call me "programmer".
From experience meeting and working with people I can say that the
quality of engineering graduates from UK universities are quite good.
This generally applies to any institution in the UK that has the word
"university" in its name.

I went to Essex University myself (I'm from Malaysia by the way). The
EE department there is good.

For top ranking engineering schools in the UK off the top of my head:

- Imperial College London (I just love the fact that they actually
maintain a live nuclear reactor for research purposes. How's that for
claim to fame!)

- University College London
- Manchester
- Nottingham
- Essex
 
R

Robert Lacoste

Jan 1, 1970
0
Let's say for instance that you have a friend or co-worker who has a
son/daughter who's interested in studying abroad (outside of the USA),
in electrical or computer engineering.

Where are the better schools?

In France of course. Well, I must admit that I'm french so may be you should
take this answer with caution. Anyway, in a nutshell in France the education
system is quite original, with two different parallel systems : university
and engineering schools. As engineering schools are more selective they are
usually graded higher, but a good university could be better than a low
range engineering schools. More specificaly the EE area the schools that
come first in mind are ENST, SUPELEC, ENSEEIHT and ENSEA, you will find them
easily on google. But there are tens of other. Three of the four are in or
near Paris, the third one in south, in Toulouse.

Friendly,
A french EE guy.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Let's say for instance that you have a friend or co-worker who has a
son/daughter who's interested in studying abroad (outside of the USA),
in electrical or computer engineering.

Where are the better schools?

I'm guessing that schools in Germany and France would be superior to
schools in the UK, but that's just a guess (mostly from the idea that
just about anyone can call him/herself an "engineer" in the UK).
True? False?

On more remark, and this is important to consider: The local language.
You need to be pretty fluent. Near borders (or what used to be borders)
and in bi-lingual countries that can be a challenge. The local folks
speak several languages and happily switch back and forth. So they don't
mind if, say, one lecture is held in Dutch and the next in French. But
that can frustrate a foreigner. Universities in Europe often have 10% or
more foreigners so one also needs to get used to thick accents, accents
in a foreign language. Yep, including accents that some professors have.

Then, join an informal circle of friends who study together and have fun
together as well. Preferably not a group with lots of other expats of
your language zone but locals. They are very helpful and understanding
when it comes to difficulties grasping a text.

Dialects: Can be severe. I lived way in the south of the Netherlands.
When a group of us were up north and talked too fast amongst ourselves
the people (in the same country!) wouldn't even understand what we were
talking about. And that was less than 100 miles away.

Before departing, way before, start listening to local radio and read
papers or magazines. The Internet makes that very easy, no need to
become an expert in shortwave reception, no need for expensive
subscriptions.

Get involved: We had a "deal" with a guy from Panama. He taught us
Spanish for one hour, then we taught him German for the next hour. Local
brew helped as well :)
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Germany has good ones as well but they are also tough. They had (have?)
the two-strike law: Fail a test twice and you are out, in my days banned
from any university there for the same career path. Maxwell's stuff
almost got me. About 75%-80% of students at my university (RWTH Aachen)
did not make it into engineering because they either threw in the towel
or got "weeded out".

I wonder if all that rigor is conducive to producing good design
engineers. Engineering design is not analysis, and being good with
divergences and curls is not much of a predictor of electronic design
skills. Seems to me they'll wash out the occasional brilliant maverick
who's just not good at, or interested in, that sort of math.

John
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
I wonder if all that rigor is conducive to producing good design
engineers.

Not likely. Circuit design is an art.
Engineering design is not analysis, and being good with
divergences and curls is not much of a predictor of electronic design
skills. Seems to me they'll wash out the occasional brilliant maverick
who's just not good at, or interested in, that sort of math.

John


...Jim Thompson
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I wonder if all that rigor is conducive to producing good design
engineers. Engineering design is not analysis, and being good with
divergences and curls is not much of a predictor of electronic design
skills. Seems to me they'll wash out the occasional brilliant maverick
who's just not good at, or interested in, that sort of math.

Yeah, and they almost washed me out on account of Maxwell. Me, the guy
who (quietly) pointed out numerous blunders in some professor's scripts,
who designed industrial control gear before we were tought about it, who
was told by the control theory prof that I didn't really understand
loops while having built tons of them etc.

I think the philosophy is similar to what it was back in the army where
they told us "As civilians you came, as tough men you will leave". And I
have to admit that it all does make you tougher and more able to face
huge hurdles.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Not likely. Circuit design is an art.

Not according to one prof back then. He said that by the time we are 40
discrete design would be obsolete. It'll be all chips. I had a major
ROFL episode when he said that.

The sad part is that many students believed such guys. So they migrated
towards computer science and so on. The result is that one client needed
1-1/2 years to find a useful analog engineer (from outside the country).
Yesterday I had a chat with a head hunter about a similar situation and
it looks a lot more dire there because nobody wants to move into the Bay
Area unless they are paid a Rockefeller level salary. I hope they'll
wise up and consider consultants bacause chances are they'll sit there
two years from now and still stare at the walls.

[...]
 
L

LVMarc

Jan 1, 1970
0
Let's say for instance that you have a friend or co-worker who has a
son/daughter who's interested in studying abroad (outside of the USA),
in electrical or computer engineering.

Where are the better schools?

I'm guessing that schools in Germany and France would be superior to
schools in the UK, but that's just a guess (mostly from the idea that
just about anyone can call him/herself an "engineer" in the UK).
True? False?

Michael
If I would choose schools for engineering. I wold pick based upon following:

1)Location
2)Fullness and use of LABS
3)Cost

Location because you do have to live for 4-5 years to obtain BS and
longer for MS PHD. So you may as well live in nice environment. If this
includes Europe, fine.

Given the artisitic nature and ability to create something, as a
real-world engineer, the LABS ad the ACTUAL USE OF THE LABS, is
critically important. So beyond volt meters and low frequency
generators ans scopes, I wold like to see:

TDR
Spectrum analyzers
VNA
High voltage (tube or advance DC power)
Anechoic chambers
Lasers


Make your own "points" system and score in excel sheet to compare
several opportunities. Most folks have cos as #1 priority and then
usually go to the State or participating schools nearby. Thats OK to,
as you learn as you go, so in ten AFTER you graduate, and you are paying
attention, you have earned 2.5 times as much as yo did the day yo
graduated.. Hopefully, this trend continues and you can do good work,
irrespective and despite :) where you received your formal training.
BTW, there is a lot of similarity in the basic courses and supporting
math to obtain a BSEE or other BS hard engineering degree..

Best regards,
Marc
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Yesterday I had a chat with a head hunter about a similar situation and it
looks a lot more dire there because nobody wants to move into the Bay Area
unless they are paid a Rockefeller level salary.

Given the housing prices and awful commutes, they probably aren't even being
greedy!
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Not likely. Circuit design is an art.

Not according to one prof back then. He said that by the time we are 40
discrete design would be obsolete. It'll be all chips. I had a major
ROFL episode when he said that.

The sad part is that many students believed such guys. So they migrated
towards computer science and so on. The result is that one client needed
1-1/2 years to find a useful analog engineer (from outside the country).
Yesterday I had a chat with a head hunter about a similar situation and
it looks a lot more dire there because nobody wants to move into the Bay
Area unless they are paid a Rockefeller level salary. I hope they'll
wise up and consider consultants bacause chances are they'll sit there
two years from now and still stare at the walls.

[...]

Not only will I not move, I insist on off-site operation (*)... I do
the designing in my office, with my tools, with occasional visits to
the customer's location.

(*) Right now I'm consulting "Z" using NoMachine's virtual remote
desktop into "Z's" Cadence tools (gag me with a spoon ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Jim Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:57:11 -0700, John Larkin



On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:59:56 -0700, Joerg




Germany has good ones as well but they are also tough. They had (have?)
the two-strike law: Fail a test twice and you are out, in my days banned

from any university there for the same career path. Maxwell's stuff


almost got me. About 75%-80% of students at my university (RWTH Aachen)
did not make it into engineering because they either threw in the towel
or got "weeded out".

I wonder if all that rigor is conducive to producing good design
engineers.


Not likely. Circuit design is an art.

Not according to one prof back then. He said that by the time we are 40
discrete design would be obsolete. It'll be all chips. I had a major
ROFL episode when he said that.

The sad part is that many students believed such guys. So they migrated
towards computer science and so on. The result is that one client needed
1-1/2 years to find a useful analog engineer (from outside the country).
Yesterday I had a chat with a head hunter about a similar situation and
it looks a lot more dire there because nobody wants to move into the Bay
Area unless they are paid a Rockefeller level salary. I hope they'll
wise up and consider consultants bacause chances are they'll sit there
two years from now and still stare at the walls.

[...]


Not only will I not move, I insist on off-site operation (*)... I do
the designing in my office, with my tools, with occasional visits to
the customer's location.

(*) Right now I'm consulting "Z" using NoMachine's virtual remote
desktop into "Z's" Cadence tools (gag me with a spoon ;-)

Nice. I only saw that once here when a business visitor linked to a
mainframe overseas. Pretty cool. Then again at a client. Me doing my
analog stuff, suddenly the big monitor behind me became live, beeping,
the cursor moving around and all that. Spooky.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
LVMarc said:
If I would choose schools for engineering. I wold pick based upon
following:

1)Location


+ lots of good pubs and Greek restaurants. Local brew should be of high
quality and not give headaches after intense imbibing :)

2)Fullness and use of LABS
3)Cost

Location because you do have to live for 4-5 years to obtain BS and
longer for MS PHD. So you may as well live in nice environment. If this
includes Europe, fine.

Given the artisitic nature and ability to create something, as a
real-world engineer, the LABS ad the ACTUAL USE OF THE LABS, is
critically important. So beyond volt meters and low frequency
generators ans scopes, I wold like to see:

TDR
Spectrum analyzers
VNA
High voltage (tube or advance DC power)
Anechoic chambers
Lasers

Solder irons.
More solder irons.
Solder.
Nuts, bolts, pliers, good machine shop.
Analog scopes or at least the Tek 2465 level.
Impressive stash of thin sheet metal.
Lots of sheet metal scraps in recycle dumpster behind lab.
A nice pile of BNC jacks is also a good sign.
Stack of Vector Boards, _with_ ground plane.
 
Nah, most EU foreigners I work with in the US came from UK schools.
Pretty darn good, I'd say. Solid theoretical background.

Germany has good ones as well but they are also tough. They had (have?)
the two-strike law: Fail a test twice and you are out, in my days banned
from any university there for the same career path. Maxwell's stuff
almost got me. About 75%-80% of students at my university (RWTH Aachen)
did not make it into engineering because they either threw in the towel
or got "weeded out".


Fail a test twice? Do you mean, fail any two tests, and then bye-
bye? Or do they actually give you a re-test when you fail a test? (I
can't remember the last time they did that at my school.)

Also, while this is an excellent way to become multi-cultural and all
that, if they ever want to eye a job that requires a P.E. I guess you
can pretty much forget the whole thing. Advisers rarely tell people that
but I believe it can become a huge obstacle. So for civil engineering
I'd personally not do that. Unless you want to work abroad since that
kind of red tape doesn't exist in most other countries.


Yep, that's for sure. And did you know, there's a distinction between
Structural and Civil engineering?



Thanks for all the input, guys. I appreciate it.

Michael
 
R

Rene Tschaggelar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fail a test twice? Do you mean, fail any two tests, and then bye-
bye? Or do they actually give you a re-test when you fail a test? (I
can't remember the last time they did that at my school.)


Fail the repeated test means bye-bye. Applied to all tests.

Rene
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fail a test twice? Do you mean, fail any two tests, and then bye-
bye? Or do they actually give you a re-test when you fail a test? (I
can't remember the last time they did that at my school.)

As Rene said if you fail the repeat test that's the end of it.

You didn't have repeats offered? So people had to drop out after failing
just one? We had to pass all the tests, no exception, else no degree.
Yep, that's for sure. And did you know, there's a distinction between
Structural and Civil engineering?

Yeah. But all this licensing, what good does it do? It's red tape. The
Europeans don't have it and they sure see less bridges collapsing over
there.
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
As Rene said if you fail the repeat test that's the end of it.

You didn't have repeats offered? So people had to drop out after failing
just one? We had to pass all the tests, no exception, else no degree.


Yeah. But all this licensing, what good does it do? It's red tape. The
Europeans don't have it and they sure see less bridges collapsing over
there.

Horse pucky! How about some numeric facts?

...Jim Thompson
 
As Rene said if you fail the repeat test that's the end of it.

You didn't have repeats offered? So people had to drop out after failing
just one? We had to pass all the tests, no exception, else no degree.


Let's see... at UC Davis for my engineering courses (I was in chemical
engineering, so that's all I know), we'd get two (or sometimes just
one - Thermodynamics!) midterm, then a final exam. Midterms typically
25-30% or so each, final maybe 35-40% each, and the difference might
be homework ~10%. You could fail a midterm and still pass the class,
if you did ok on the other midterm and final. They don't do re-tests.

If you fail the class, you take the class again next year (typically
upper division engineering classes are only offered once a year). Or
you could drop out on your own, your choice. You have to maintain a
2.0 GPA overall in your engineering courses, otherwise they throw you
out of the engineering program.

Michael
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Horse pucky! How about some numeric facts?

How about some facts the other direction? "To safeguard and protect the
public ... yada, yada, yada.." Where's the proof that it does?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/us/09cnd-bridge.html?pagewanted=print

As for bridge failures I don't have any statistics for Europe but if
there was a spat of major events like the above it would have been on
the news there and it wasn't. Ok, maybe I missed one but the only
failures I remember were metal girder issues way back in the 70's, and
pre-stressed concrete bridges where inspectors found corrosion (but
before anything happened).

When you travel over there you can cross bridges that were built by
<gasp> unlicensed Roman engineers more than 1500 years ago and they hold
up just fine. So, show me a credible news report from the last few year
about a major bridge collapse in Europe, of the seriousness we have seen
this year, and I'll stand corrected.
 
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