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Electromagnets Attraction/Repulsion force rate.

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Dretron

Jun 9, 2012
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and I believe the attraction will be greater that the repulsion by at least a little bit.

Could you give me an example with numbers?
Lets rate the repulsion and attraction newtons of force.
Attraction: 150N
Repulsion: 140N?


How different are they?
If we made the BEST electromagnet as well.
 
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john monks

Mar 9, 2012
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I would love to give you exact numbers but I cannot that easily. There are simply to many variables. But I can tell you is that if you have an electromagnet and another iron permanent magnet several feet away or some good long distance then the attractive and repulsive will be about equal simply by reversing the current in the electromagnet. Now if you had a weak permanent magnet close to the electromagnet then you will be near a situation that you will have a strong attractive and no repulsive force at all. And if you had an even weaker permanent magnet then you would only have an attractive force, one stronger than the other. All this is due to the easily manipulated magnetic dipoles in the iron magnet. To answer more accurately I would have to set up a test and I can't do that sitting of my piano.
 

Dretron

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I can't do that sitting of my piano.

Ah, the most beautiful instrument to me.
But John, I was speaking about a neo. manget, not a iron magnet.
Im more interested in the most powerful magnets.

What do you think would happen with a neo mag?
 

john monks

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I have not done a lot of experimenting with neo. magnets but I would definitely expect the bad effects of iron to be much less in neo. magnets. I have two neo. magnets right in front of me right now and I can push both north poles together and hold them without a great deal of effort. So that leads me to believe that the magnetic dipoles in the magnets to rotate around as in a normal magnet. If they didn't I wouldn't be able to hold them together.
 

Dretron

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I have not done a lot of experimenting with neo. magnets but I would definitely expect the bad effects of iron to be much less in neo. magnets. I have two neo. magnets right in front of me right now and I can push both north poles together and hold them without a great deal of effort. So that leads me to believe that the magnetic dipoles in the magnets to rotate around as in a normal magnet. If they didn't I wouldn't be able to hold them together.

Well.
Are the Neo magnets really small?
They can't apply a force strong enough to counter the force you applied. That's why I believe you can force the opposite poles together... I HIGHLY doubt that is possible with stronger magnets. Actually I'm quite sure that would not happen.

I can do the exact same thing with tiny Neo magnets.
But I could not do the same with ones a little bit larger.

Another explanation is that the magnet's field is weaker than what it was before... That is another thing.

Now when I think about it, the effect that happens when the magnet is attracted should be equal when the magnet is repelled. Because their atomic structure and dipoles are always equal.
When I used an electromagnet I believe it will attract/repel the Neo magnet equally the same.

If not, this effect should be present when playing around with magnet alone.
In terms of iron based magnets I'm not sure...
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
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Holding magnets apart is harder than pushing them together, but it doesn't necessarily mean you need more force.

When you push them together the force opposing your effort increases as your effort does. The situation is stable. You can just increase your force without anything dramatic happening.

When you pull the magnets apart (or try to keep them very very close) you have an unstable situation. The force required to keep them apart increases as they get closer and decreases as they get further apart. If you apply a little too much force, the magnets will be pulled apart, the force is even more excessive, so they fly apart. The opposite happens if you apply too little force. They move slightly closer, the attraction is greater, and they slam together.

Keeping them apart requires fine control (i.e. feedback) and a careful adjustment of the applied force. Pushing them together just requires brute force.

The statement "I'm not clever but I can lift heavy things" applies in this case. It's easier to push them together.
 

CDRIVE

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May 8, 2012
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Keeping them apart requires fine control (i.e. feedback) and a careful adjustment of the applied force. Pushing them together just requires brute force.

The statement "I'm not clever but I can lift heavy things" applies in this case. It's easier to push them together.

Which is why the test setup that I posted earlier is arranged as it is. It insures all elements of the test are immobilized. ;)

Chris
 

john monks

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The magnets I used were small. Pushing the together was tricky because of what Steve was saying. It required considerable force but once I got the flush against each other the force became mush less. But I concede that a good test like cdrive suggest is in order to find out for sure. Detron says that the atomic structure or dipoles are always equal. I don't believe that is true because if that was true I would not be able to puts the magnets together. And if that was true the maximum force would be when the magnets were flush together.
If anyone can think up a good test setup I am willing ti try it.
 
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