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EMP blast - what would happen really?

I've heard that if an EMP weapon were used, *nothing* in the blast area
that relies on electricity would work.

Is this really true?

If you had an alkaline battery, it would still put out a voltage,
correct?

Failing that, one could still take a roll of paper towels, immerse the
towels in a salt solution (table salt should do), place alternating
plates of copper and zinc (or any two dissimilar metals), and obtain a
current... right?

Would motors still work, or would their windings be guaranteed
destroyed in an EMP blast?

Thanks,

Michael
 
A

almo

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've heard that if an EMP weapon were used, *nothing* in the blast area
that relies on electricity would work.

Is this really true?

If you had an alkaline battery, it would still put out a voltage,
correct?

Failing that, one could still take a roll of paper towels, immerse the
towels in a salt solution (table salt should do), place alternating
plates of copper and zinc (or any two dissimilar metals), and obtain a
current... right?

Would motors still work, or would their windings be guaranteed
destroyed in an EMP blast?

Thanks,

Michael

Michael - The EMP (electro-magnetic pulse) would not affect batteries.
In fact, it's really only a concern for IC's, especially
microprocessors. The big deal several years ago was that U.S. military
aircraft relied heavily on silicon ICs and microprocessors, but the
stone-age Soviet planes were still using vacuum tubes and the vacuum
tubes would be pretty much immune to a nuclear EMP. The EMP problem
goes back to Einstein, et. al. wherein a wave can also be an atomic
particle, which is true of course, and can, and does occasionally knock
out one bit of a memory cell, usually in spacecraft. However, the
caveat being that the nuclear blast causing the EMP doesn't evaporate
you and your battery cell, thereby leaving you no reason to worry abut
the EMP :)))

Almo
 
T

tlbs101

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've heard that if an EMP weapon were used, *nothing* in the blast area
that relies on electricity would work.

Is this really true?

If you had an alkaline battery, it would still put out a voltage,
correct?

Failing that, one could still take a roll of paper towels, immerse the
towels in a salt solution (table salt should do), place alternating
plates of copper and zinc (or any two dissimilar metals), and obtain a
current... right?

Would motors still work, or would their windings be guaranteed
destroyed in an EMP blast?

Thanks,

Michael

After an EMP event, batteries will still hold their chemical charge,
electrical motors will still function (except, perhaps, for the
smallest micro-motors), relays will still function, as would
electron-tubes. The power grids will see a major overload, and
protection circuits will "kick" in. Whether they recover in a timely
manner is another subject.

What will be damaged are most unprotected electronic circuits: Consumer
electronics, TVs, radios, cell phones, iPods, Blackberries, hand-held
video games, home computers, etc. Even automobiles have so much
electronic gear (computers, sensors) that they would be rendered
useless after an EMP event. This is one [small] reason I keep a 1969
Chevy truck -- no electronics.

The key is the threshold energy: motors, generators, transformers,
relays, power-grid components, vacuum tubes all operate in the range of
10 milliJouls to >1 MegaJoules, while all consumer electronics
(integrated circuits) have a threshold energy at or below 1 milliJoules
(down to 100 nanoJoules and less). EMP pulses can produce 10
milliJoules inside of electronic circuits, and 100 Joules outside of
electronic enclosures.

The majority of military electronic gear has protection circuits
built-in so they would survive (at least they are designed and tested
that way).
 
almo said:
Michael - The EMP (electro-magnetic pulse) would not affect batteries.
In fact, it's really only a concern for IC's, especially
microprocessors. The big deal several years ago was that U.S. military
aircraft relied heavily on silicon ICs and microprocessors, but the
stone-age Soviet planes were still using vacuum tubes and the vacuum
tubes would be pretty much immune to a nuclear EMP. The EMP problem
goes back to Einstein, et. al. wherein a wave can also be an atomic
particle, which is true of course, and can, and does occasionally knock
out one bit of a memory cell, usually in spacecraft. However, the
caveat being that the nuclear blast causing the EMP doesn't evaporate
you and your battery cell, thereby leaving you no reason to worry abut
the EMP :)))

Almo, you are confusing two very different things.

EMP is not an atomic particle sort of wave, but instead is essentially
a very powerful radio wave. It induces current in antennas -
intentional ones, and also any conductor that it encounters. When it
hits the huge antenna that is the electrical power grid, it can be
powerful enough to fry "big" things like motors, but when it hits
smaller conductors it can induce enough to fry sensitive things like
IC's (which often are more electrically fragile than tubes). The power
of the pulse-induced current does the primary damage, though there
could perhaps be some secondary effects.

But you've mixed it up with the effect of individual charged particles,
such as from radioactive decay or cosmic sources, on very small
structures in IC's. That's an entirely different matter - it cuases
erroneous operation and flips flip flops, but it usually
non-destructive, unless it triggers self-distructive current flow from
the ordinary power supply by putting an IC into latch-up.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Almo, you are confusing two very different things.

EMP is not an atomic particle sort of wave, but instead is essentially
a very powerful radio wave.

Spot on.

It induces current in antennas -
intentional ones, and also any conductor that it encounters. When it
hits the huge antenna that is the electrical power grid, it can be
powerful enough to fry "big" things like motors, but when it hits
smaller conductors it can induce enough to fry sensitive things like
IC's (which often are more electrically fragile than tubes). The power
of the pulse-induced current does the primary damage, though there
could perhaps be some secondary effects.

But you've mixed it up with the effect of individual charged particles,
such as from radioactive decay or cosmic sources, on very small
structures in IC's. That's an entirely different matter - it cuases
erroneous operation and flips flip flops, but it usually
non-destructive, unless it triggers self-distructive current flow from
the ordinary power supply by putting an IC into latch-up.

A US test once knocked out street lighting in Hawaii !

http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm
http://www.sonic.net/~doretk/Issues/00-03-SPR/theblack.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/wanniski/wanniski15.html
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/emp-terror.htm

Graham
 
tlbs101 said:
I've heard that if an EMP weapon were used, *nothing* in the blast area
that relies on electricity would work.

Is this really true?

If you had an alkaline battery, it would still put out a voltage,
correct?

Failing that, one could still take a roll of paper towels, immerse the
towels in a salt solution (table salt should do), place alternating
plates of copper and zinc (or any two dissimilar metals), and obtain a
current... right?

Would motors still work, or would their windings be guaranteed
destroyed in an EMP blast?

Thanks,

Michael

After an EMP event, batteries will still hold their chemical charge,
electrical motors will still function (except, perhaps, for the
smallest micro-motors), relays will still function, as would
electron-tubes. The power grids will see a major overload, and
protection circuits will "kick" in. Whether they recover in a timely
manner is another subject.

What will be damaged are most unprotected electronic circuits: Consumer
electronics, TVs, radios, cell phones, iPods, Blackberries, hand-held
video games, home computers, etc. Even automobiles have so much
electronic gear (computers, sensors) that they would be rendered
useless after an EMP event. This is one [small] reason I keep a 1969
Chevy truck -- no electronics.

The key is the threshold energy: motors, generators, transformers,
relays, power-grid components, vacuum tubes all operate in the range of
10 milliJouls to >1 MegaJoules, while all consumer electronics
(integrated circuits) have a threshold energy at or below 1 milliJoules
(down to 100 nanoJoules and less). EMP pulses can produce 10
milliJoules inside of electronic circuits, and 100 Joules outside of
electronic enclosures.

The majority of military electronic gear has protection circuits
built-in so they would survive (at least they are designed and tested
that way).


So vacuum tubes (and diesel generators) should still work... and here I
thought we'd have to go into hydraulic gates (some researcher in MIT
was working on these, I can't find the link at the moment) in the event
an EMP went off...

Thanks,

Michael
 
A

AndyS

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've heard that if an EMP weapon were used, *nothing* in the blast area
that relies on electricity would work.

Is this really true?

Andy comments:

After reading the replies to your question, I am afraid that
they have missed the point.

The answer is , NO, you would not be able to download
porn until you bought a new computer.......

Sorry, ;.... but that's the fog of war.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas
 
AndyS said:
Andy comments:

After reading the replies to your question, I am afraid that
they have missed the point.

The answer is , NO, you would not be able to download
porn until you bought a new computer.......

Sorry, ;.... but that's the fog of war.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas


Porn, ha ha... they can use the analog solution: magazines.

I was more concerned with the future wars our administration will get
us into, but that's a whole 'nother story. In that case, the supply
chain involved with "buying a new computer" may not exist...

Cheers,

Michael
 
I've heard that if an EMP weapon were used, *nothing* in the blast area
that relies on electricity would work.

Is this really true?

If you had an alkaline battery, it would still put out a voltage,
correct?

Failing that, one could still take a roll of paper towels, immerse the
towels in a salt solution (table salt should do), place alternating
plates of copper and zinc (or any two dissimilar metals), and obtain a
current... right?

Would motors still work, or would their windings be guaranteed
destroyed in an EMP blast?

Thanks,

Michael

As you suspect, the statement that after a detonation of an "EMP
weapon", "nothing with 2 asterisks" in the "blast area" that "relies"
on electricity would work is a bit inaccurate and/or misleading. Much
electrical and electronic equipment already in existence would be
destroyed or damaged. Some would not. This undamaged equipment would
work fine after the pulse had gone by. Yes of course an alkaline
battery would still put out a voltage. If it was in a circuit it might
have got fried first. Of course if you made a voltaic pile out of wet
tissues and dissimilar metals it would work. An EMP device does not
abolish electric currents for ever within the blast area.

If by an "EMP weapon", you mean a nuclear device optimized for EMP (all
nuclear weapons produce EMP to some extent), they work by sending out
an electromagnetic pulse which would induce more or less heavy currents
in conductors. This could damage electronic equipment and electric
power lines, generating stations and substations.

The resistance to EMP by device is listed below, from most to least
vulnerable:

1. Integrated circuits (ICs), CPUs, silicon chips
2. Transistors
3. Vacuum Tubes (also known as thermionic valves)
4. Inductors, motors

Transistor technology is likely to fail and old vacuum equipment
survive. However it must be considered, that different types of
transistors and ICs show different sensitivity to EM: bipolar ICs and
transistors are much less sensitive than FETs and especially MOSFETs.

To protect sensitive electronics, a Faraday cage must be produced
around the item. This can be done by wrapping the item, such as a radio
in foil (any external connections should not touch foil) without any
holes. This will shield the item from EM fields.

So you can see that motors are fairly low down the list of vulnerable
equipment.

A strike *guaranteed* to burn out the windings in an electric motor
would most likely destroy the building it is housed in by blast or heat
anyway.

When a defecting (for money) Soviet pilot landed a MiG fighter in japan
towards the end of the Cold war, and US techs stripped it down, they
laughed at how "backward" the Soviets were, still using vacuum tubes in
the 1980s. Such dinky little tubes as well. Then they stopped laughing
when they noticed a couple more features and realised they were looking
at a practically EMP proof plane.
 
M

martin griffith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Andy comments:

After reading the replies to your question, I am afraid that
they have missed the point.

The answer is , NO, you would not be able to download
porn until you bought a new computer.......
and it would put this guy out of business
http://tinyurl.com/l4buy


martin
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Hard copy.


Before, or after?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
G

Genome

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Woodgate said:
Hard copy.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immensely.

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

Oh, so that is why they are advertising for Manhattan Supply Chain
Consultants

DNA


'Porn, ha ha... they can use the analog solution: magazines.

I was more concerned with the future wars our administration will get
us into, but that's a whole 'nother story. In that case, the supply
chain involved with "buying a new computer" may not exist...'
 
S

Sjouke Burry

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've heard that if an EMP weapon were used, *nothing* in the blast area
that relies on electricity would work.

Is this really true?

If you had an alkaline battery, it would still put out a voltage,
correct?

Failing that, one could still take a roll of paper towels, immerse the
towels in a salt solution (table salt should do), place alternating
plates of copper and zinc (or any two dissimilar metals), and obtain a
current... right?

Would motors still work, or would their windings be guaranteed
destroyed in an EMP blast?

Thanks,

Michael
Wat would you think happens if 10000+ volts is induced
in every meter of wire? Suddenly like with lightning,
every computer,tv etc being blitzed, power lines evaporating,
and all technical installations going to their last reward.
All done by exploding a nuclear device just above the atmosphere.
Some such damage seems to have occurred ,with a test explosion
from th USA,frying the electric net on an island in the pacific.
What happens is,atoms get separated from their electrons,causing
the transportation of a huge amount of charge(like in lightning)
only much worse,and it works best,if the radiation front hits the
atmosfere from above.
So yes, your battery keeps working, but your radioantenna
or your headphone wire picks up enough to blow your radio.
Isolation on the wiring in motors is the first to go,unless
the motor is not connected to anything.
 
G

Genome

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've heard that if an EMP weapon were used, *nothing* in the blast area
that relies on electricity would work.

Is this really true?

If you had an alkaline battery, it would still put out a voltage,
correct?

Failing that, one could still take a roll of paper towels, immerse the
towels in a salt solution (table salt should do), place alternating
plates of copper and zinc (or any two dissimilar metals), and obtain a
current... right?

Would motors still work, or would their windings be guaranteed
destroyed in an EMP blast?

Thanks,

Michael

I just saw one of those programs on the telly where lotz of americans get
killed by a tornado then get saved buy the fire department and there were
some really good shots of the electricity stuff blowing up and the bloke in
charge said he knew there were people dieing out there when he saw that.

Anyway, I wondered why he didn't phone up the electricity company and ask
them to switch it off before it got there. Then all of the electricity stuff
wouldn't have blown up and all those americans would not have died.

DNA
 
A

almo

Jan 1, 1970
0
Almo, you are confusing two very different things.

EMP is not an atomic particle sort of wave, but instead is essentially
a very powerful radio wave. It induces current in antennas -
intentional ones, and also any conductor that it encounters. When it
hits the huge antenna that is the electrical power grid, it can be
powerful enough to fry "big" things like motors, but when it hits
smaller conductors it can induce enough to fry sensitive things like
IC's (which often are more electrically fragile than tubes). The power
of the pulse-induced current does the primary damage, though there
could perhaps be some secondary effects.

But you've mixed it up with the effect of individual charged particles,
such as from radioactive decay or cosmic sources, on very small
structures in IC's. That's an entirely different matter - it cuases
erroneous operation and flips flip flops, but it usually
non-destructive, unless it triggers self-distructive current flow from
the ordinary power supply by putting an IC into latch-up.

I thought I went out of my way to point out the "confusion" part.
Although, true, it has been a matter of debate for a long time,
nonetheless; is light a wave or a particle? Is light considered
electro-magnetic energy?

Reference Wikipedia -
"In physics, wave-particle duality holds that light and matter exhibit
properties of both waves and of particles. It is a central concept of
quantum mechanics. The idea is rooted in a debate over the nature of
light and matter dating back to the 1600s, when competing theories of
light were proposed by Christiaan Huygens and Isaac Newton. Through the
work of Albert Einstein, Louis de Broglie and many others, it is now
established that all objects have both wave and particle nature (though
this phenomenon is only detectable on small scales, such as with
atoms), and that quantum mechanics provides the over-arching theory
resolving this paradox."

Almo
 
W

w_tom

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sjouke said:
Wat would you think happens if 10000+ volts is induced
in every meter of wire? Suddenly like with lightning,
every computer,tv etc being blitzed, power lines evaporating,
and all technical installations going to their last reward.

Well, I just zapped a door handle with 18,000 volts. Not even a mark
on the door handle. Somehow you are confusing volts with energy.
There is very little relationship. How often do you blow your hand off
due to static electric discharge? Voltage without other parameters
tells us nothing - but can be used to hype junk science claims on the
naive and those who blindly believe Rush Limbaugh.

Having asked questions such as why, then that 10000+ volts induced
one meter of wire means nothing. I discharged 18,000 volts in only
0.003 meters - much more intense electric field - and I am still here
to talk about it.
 
T

Tim Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
almo said:
The EMP problem
goes back to Einstein, et. al. wherein a wave can also be an atomic
particle

Eh? EM radiation is ONLY a photon. Not only that, those released from an
EMP have very, very low energy (even the very light you're reading took only
a few volts to create, and that has a frequency in the exahertz range).

"Atomic" particles (presumably, those with mass which the world is built
from) have a quantum mechanics wavefunction. They do NOT necessarily
interact as EM waves do, because they aren't the same damned particle!

And BTW, Einstein hated quantum physics, and it was DeBroglie besides.

Tim
 
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