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Fastest AC Electronic Fuse

M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC a écrit :







How about an AC current limiter?

.--------------------------------.
| |
| |
| .---+---. |
| | | | |
.---+ | .-. .-. |
| | | | | | | |
| +-|| .----+ | | | | |
- ->|| | | '-' '-' -
^ +-||--' >| | | ^
| | |-+ +-|<-+---. |
o-----+ +--. /| | | | | +-------o
| .-. | | | | | | |
- | | | ___ | |/ --- --- z -
^ | | '-|___|-+-| --- --- A ^
| '-' |> | | | |
AC in | | | | | | | AC out
'---+--------------+---+----|---+----'
.-.
| |
| |
'-'
|
o---------------------------------+----------------o

I worry a bit about the forward current on the Zener. I guess that
with the values put in, the current will be small enough.

Also if you don't mind a little leakage:


Modified version:
.--------------------------------.
| |
| |
| .---. |
+----------. | | |
.---+ | | .-. |
| | | | | | |
| +-|| .--------+ | | |
- ->|| | | | '-' -
^ +-||--' - | | ^
| | | | | +-|<-+---. |
o-----+ +--. | | | | | | +-------o
| .-. | - | | | | |
- | | | ___ | |/ | | | -
^ | | '-|___|-+-| --- --- z ^
| '-' |> --- --- A |
AC in | | | | | | | AC out
'---+--------------+---+----|---+----'
.-.
| |
| |
'-'
|
o---------------------------------+----------------o

It relies on the device capacitances to hold the NPN on through the
zero crossing.
 
F

Fred Bartoli

Jan 1, 1970
0
MooseFET a écrit :
I worry a bit about the forward current on the Zener. I guess that
with the values put in, the current will be small enough.

Under normal working conditions (no tripping/limiting) the supply has no
current to provide (just biasing the gate), so the average (or even
peak) current can be made 1mA without any pb.

Also if you don't mind a little leakage:


Modified version:

It relies on the device capacitances to hold the NPN on through the
zero crossing.

Ok, but it doesn't trip, so you'll need some very serious heat sinking
under fault conditions.
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
I did tests, for example, on 5A 250V rated fuses. The 20mm glass
variety would literally explode (a VERY loud bang) sending shrapnel
everywhere, just on 240VAC/60Hz with an industrial source capable of
enough source current.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

I'll put the goggles on.. :)
D from BC
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
The fastest fuse in the world is an expensive microwave transistor.
Works a treat to protect line fuses.

Regards
Ian

That's fast... Fast enough to be a fuse protector.. :)

D from BC
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC a écrit :

The positive FB loop between the NPN/PNP bjts make the 'limiter' trip.
With the right time constants, the *small* bypass cap voltage gets down
to the point where the 'SCR' self resets. This obviously has to happen
within one line period (before injecting a new current pulse through the
series RC).

Ooops..I didn't know this was an auto reset breaker..
I was looking for negative feedback..I thought this was a
limiter(current regulator).. I didn't recognize the SCRish transistor
arrangement..with it's own positive feedback loop.
Yep. Limits the gate voltage and provides a path for the RC branch
'negative half period' current.


Should be.


Can be fixed with just one more resistor.

Biasing the NPN base??
It is already. Well a periodic, self resetting one.

That's from when I mistakened this as a linear current limiting
circuit..

This circuit is probably going to keep me busy for hours..
It's all in the bridge :)

What's the history on this circuit? Textbook? Well known? Own
invention? Magazine? Old? New?

D from BC
 
F

Fred Bartoli

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC a écrit :
Ooops..I didn't know this was an auto reset breaker..
I was looking for negative feedback..I thought this was a
limiter(current regulator).. I didn't recognize the SCRish transistor
arrangement..with it's own positive feedback loop.


Biasing the NPN base??


That's from when I mistakened this as a linear current limiting
circuit..

This circuit is probably going to keep me busy for hours..
It's all in the bridge :)

What's the history on this circuit? Textbook? Well known? Own
invention? Magazine? Old? New?

Uh, do we really need to copy such circuits from somewhere?
Just sketched it in 2 minutes.
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC a écrit :

Uh, do we really need to copy such circuits from somewhere?
Just sketched it in 2 minutes.


2 minutes!!

My imagination failed me :(
It's a mental block or something..Or I have too much DC in the
brain...:)
It's the lead.... :p

It's like shorting a bridge out...that's wack!! :)
Obviously...I have only used bridges in basic applications..

D from BC
 
Q

qrk

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm wondering what's more explosive...
Slowly sneaking up the current through the fuse until it blows...
Or.....
suddenly connecting the fuse across a 300V charged 100uF low ESR
capacitor?

Should I worry about fuse shrapnel and BANG! when it comes to fuse
selection?
D from BC

Bussmann TPS fuses clear in less than 5ms. TPS series are 170VDC rated
fuses. In our test setup, we shorted out a 2.5F cap bank charged up to
100VDC. Made a tiny nick in the copper shorting block. Peak current
was around 2k Amps (don't quite remember the details). Fuse worked
well!
 
W

whit3rd

Jan 1, 1970
0
Years ago I used an SCR to blow fuses (on the load side). I think it
was in the microsecond range.

It should be noted that microsecond turnon is usually a problem for
SCRs;
either a photoSCR or an integrated SCR/Zener combination (SIDActor
type)
will perform best with rapid turnon requirement.

Either a fuse, OR a positive-tempco polyfuse should work well; if
you use the polyfuse, a few seconds of power-off will reset the
protection.
 
M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
MooseFET a écrit :

[....]

I've added some "*"s
Ok, but it doesn't trip, so you'll need some very serious heat sinking
under fault conditions.

No, it does trip. Note the resistor marked with the "*"s. When there
is a drop on the MOSFET, it biases the NPN on thereby providing the
positive feedback needed for the latching action.
 
F

Fred Bartoli

Jan 1, 1970
0
MooseFET a écrit :
MooseFET a écrit :

[....]

I've added some "*"s
Ok, but it doesn't trip, so you'll need some very serious heat sinking
under fault conditions.

No, it does trip. Note the resistor marked with the "*"s. When there
is a drop on the MOSFET, it biases the NPN on thereby providing the
positive feedback needed for the latching action.

Ah, yes missed that. Then it's perfect.
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
You might also need to decouple the supply well in case glitches set
of the triacs and blow the fuses.

www.ckp-railways.talktalk.net/pcbcad21.htm

Of course.
I'm getting better at the noise reduction layer in electronics
design..

What might be a kickass combo would be the bridge based breaker
circuit(as posted in this thread) followed by a triac shunt.
But..probably overboard...

I'm currently playing with mutations of the bridge breaker circuit..
Such as:
RL current sensing
Turn slew control
Low current consumption control electronics
Single IC solutions
D from BC
 
J

joseph2k

Jan 1, 1970
0
D said:
I'm wondering what's more explosive...
Slowly sneaking up the current through the fuse until it blows...
Or.....
suddenly connecting the fuse across a 300V charged 100uF low ESR
capacitor?

Should I worry about fuse shrapnel and BANG! when it comes to fuse
selection?
D from BC
Have you tried telephoning or emailing any fuse manufacturers? Every time i
have asked one they were very helpful.
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Have you tried telephoning or emailing any fuse manufacturers? Every time i
have asked one they were very helpful.

Doh!

Hopefully, I won't need any fuses if I cook up an AC limiter/breaker
based on posts in this thread.

I've cooked up a 2 op amp latchup circuit for inside the bridge.
It has massive positive feedback for latch up.
This allows a cool 0.1ohm current sense resistor.
Thermal stability and precision current trip point are also benefits.
Faster speed can be accomplished with high speed comparators.
I've come up with a single IC circuit with no discrete small signal
transistors.

D from BC
 
I

Ian

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
Doh!

Hopefully, I won't need any fuses if I cook up an AC limiter/breaker
based on posts in this thread.

I've cooked up a 2 op amp latchup circuit for inside the bridge.
It has massive positive feedback for latch up.
This allows a cool 0.1ohm current sense resistor.
Thermal stability and precision current trip point are also benefits.
Faster speed can be accomplished with high speed comparators.
I've come up with a single IC circuit with no discrete small signal
transistors.

D from BC

Don't knock the discrete transistor approach.
To turn the Mosfet off fast you need to pull the gate charge out, which
takes
relatively high peak currents. The discretes give you this capability.

Slightly off topic: when I were but a slip 'o a lad, I worked for a summer
in a test lab. One fun bit was helping a Real Engineer test a circuit
breaker - a 1A model was the target. First we checked that it tripped
properly at the nomial current, then came the fun bit.

A circuit breaker has to break the circuit, especially under fault
conditions. That means you have to check that it does so under
not just reasonable conditions, but also unreasonable ones.

The Real Engineer's test area was surrounded by a metal cage,
and in back a door led into a vault which had double walls, and
was filled with a couple of tons of heavy duty batteries, switchgear
and massive bussbars through the walls into the test area.

We spent a morning making sure the batteries were all fully charged,
and connecting up the poor little unsuspecting Consumer Unit
1A circuit breaker in a safety chamber. We then retired to a "shack"
within the test area, and threw the switch. ISTR the current was
4000A, and blew the circuit breaker to pieces. The result was
a "pass" as it broke the circuit ;-)

Regards
Ian
 
M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
Doh!

Hopefully, I won't need any fuses if I cook up an AC limiter/breaker
based on posts in this thread.

I've cooked up a 2 op amp latchup circuit for inside the bridge.
It has massive positive feedback for latch up.
This allows a cool 0.1ohm current sense resistor.
Thermal stability and precision current trip point are also benefits.
Faster speed can be accomplished with high speed comparators.
I've come up with a single IC circuit with no discrete small signal
transistors.

I suggest you use the comparitor. Dollar for dollar, they are usually
much faster than op-amps. IIRC, you can get a comparitor and
reference in one package from Linear.

IIRC: The LTC1440

It seems to me that if you find the right comparitor, one comparitor
will do. You only need to find some way to do the positive feedback.
Many comparitors have inverted and non-inverted outputs.

If you use the trick of using the drain voltage of the MOSFET as the
place to take the positive feedback from, you may be able to make the
circuit reset on each zero crossing.

BTW: I think you also need a stout MOV across the bridge. On an
inductive load, the turn off could be a bit exciting.
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don't knock the discrete transistor approach.
To turn the Mosfet off fast you need to pull the gate charge out, which
takes
relatively high peak currents. The discretes give you this capability.

Slightly off topic: when I were but a slip 'o a lad, I worked for a summer
in a test lab. One fun bit was helping a Real Engineer test a circuit
breaker - a 1A model was the target. First we checked that it tripped
properly at the nomial current, then came the fun bit.

A circuit breaker has to break the circuit, especially under fault
conditions. That means you have to check that it does so under
not just reasonable conditions, but also unreasonable ones.

The Real Engineer's test area was surrounded by a metal cage,
and in back a door led into a vault which had double walls, and
was filled with a couple of tons of heavy duty batteries, switchgear
and massive bussbars through the walls into the test area.

We spent a morning making sure the batteries were all fully charged,
and connecting up the poor little unsuspecting Consumer Unit
1A circuit breaker in a safety chamber. We then retired to a "shack"
within the test area, and threw the switch. ISTR the current was
a "pass" as it broke the circuit ;-)

Regards
Ian

True...That MOSFET needs to be pulled down hard for fast switch off..
But...I've come up with another solution for that bridge based AC
limiter/breaker...
Using a Mosfet driver chip!
Some of the mosfet driver chips have all the features I need to make
an AC breaker/limiter such as:

hard switch off
cool resistor current sensing
overcurrent latched shutdown..
internal reference
error output
Power rail ripple rejection
Maybe glitch rejection
Maybe low idle current??

This reason why I gravitate toward IC solutions is:
* Less parts for faster PCB developement
* IC's are often temp compensated
* Smaller PCB
* Often less complicated math
* Possible faster developement time

About that high peak amp breaker story..
Why did it the breaker circuit blow up but saved the unit?
No fuse pop?
Slow breaker?
Shunt type?
Goofy design?
D from BC
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
I suggest you use the comparitor. Dollar for dollar, they are usually
much faster than op-amps. IIRC, you can get a comparitor and
reference in one package from Linear.

IIRC: The LTC1440

It seems to me that if you find the right comparitor, one comparitor
will do. You only need to find some way to do the positive feedback.
Many comparitors have inverted and non-inverted outputs.

If you use the trick of using the drain voltage of the MOSFET as the
place to take the positive feedback from, you may be able to make the
circuit reset on each zero crossing.

BTW: I think you also need a stout MOV across the bridge. On an
inductive load, the turn off could be a bit exciting.


Breaking an inductive load = zap!
So.yeah...MOV for sure..

I might drop the comparator idea and use a mosfet driver IC with
current sensing.

But let's say I keep going with comparators...
I believe you're right that only one comparator with a positive
feedback arrangement can turn off the mosfet.
I might use a comparator with differential outputs.

The 2 op amp latching circuit I mentioned is a little goofy..
Op amp 1 works in linear mode and limits the MOSFET current..
There is a lot of negative feedback..
Op amp 2 senses the Mosfet gate in linear mode and with positive
feedback (gain^2) shuts down op amp 1 to shut off the mosfet.
Manual reset required.. (But that's ok)

The general idea is that a temporary linear mode may clip the current
spikes but may not be enough to trip the latch for breaking. It's a
way of getting overcurrent protection with fewer interruptions.
Note: This is employed in some Mosfet drive IC's.


D from BC
 
I

Ian

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
True...That MOSFET needs to be pulled down hard for fast switch off..
But...I've come up with another solution for that bridge based AC
limiter/breaker...
Using a Mosfet driver chip!
Some of the mosfet driver chips have all the features I need to make
an AC breaker/limiter such as:

hard switch off
cool resistor current sensing
overcurrent latched shutdown..
internal reference
error output
Power rail ripple rejection
Maybe glitch rejection
Maybe low idle current??


About that high peak amp breaker story..
Why did it the breaker circuit blow up but saved the unit?
No fuse pop?
Slow breaker?
Shunt type?
Goofy design?
D from BC

Mosfet driver chip sounds good.

On the circuit breaker test, the breaker has an electrical path,
a current sense for that path (usually magnetic), and a switch.

The issue is whether the switch opens at high overcurrent,
or if the contacts get welded shut. You have to test a number
of breakers at steadily increasing currents to make sure
there is no intermediate fault current that produces the
welding action. The final test blew the breaker to pieces,
but the circuit was broken so the result was a "pass".

Regards
Ian
 
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