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Furnace fan motor run directly by natural gas combustion ? Why not?

A

Arnold Walker

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve Spence said:
We don't see too many gas furnaces here in the north east. We do convert a
fair number of oil furnaces to run on biodiesel and veggie oil.
Also have the gas ones ,but for reasons I don't understand .They are in a
separate
divison of the company.
Have seen both gas and oil gun burners used in large solid fuel boilers and
incinerators as well.
Automatic controls are kicking they in and out as combustion sensors
dictate.
In garbage incinerators and biomass steam plants.,,,,they don't have ash and
soot messing them up, as much
as on amospheric burners.
 
H

HVAC Guy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Anthony said:
I do think it's a daft idea, of course, but only because of the
increased cost, maintenance and lower reliability compared to an
electric blower.

It's a shame that there are ALWAYS deaths in the US and Canada every
winter because of power outages caused by storms, snow, ice, etc, that
leads to people using propane stoves or running gasoline-powered
generators in their house, and people die because of CO poisoning or
because their house burns down.

It's a shame because if it weren't for the god-damn electric fan
motor, their house would be warm during a blackout because the NG
keeps flowing.

I'm sure that thousands of people in US/CAnada experience an
electricity outage of 1 or more days every winter.

It seems that the technology is already here for quiet and reliable
NG-powered motors:

http://www.whispergen.com/main/TECH/

Honda recently came out with a 1000 watt cogeneration unit that is
designed to run continuously during the heating season to provide 1000
watts of electricity on a continuous basis. Waste heat is coupled to
regular furnace (Climate Energy) which adds addional heat on demand.

http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1000?mid=2005042628647&mime=asc

http://www.energyefficienthomearticles.com/Article/Micro-cogen-for-homes/2039

GE also has some new electronically commutated motors that are more
efficient than the regular AC motors:

http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?pnlid=4&id=ecmhp

Seems very few furnace makers are using them.

There has got to be a way build a residential NG furnace that can keep
running during a blackout.
 
It's a shame because if it weren't for the god-damn electric fan
motor, their house would be warm during a blackout because the NG
keeps flowing.

There has got to be a way build a residential NG furnace that can keep
running during a blackout.


Cogeneration is a good idea in many situations. The 1,000 watt units that
you mention would work OK for some applications, but when we start talking
about electric water heaters, electric ovens and so forth people will
probably still use a generator when there isn't power.

One of my relatives has a natural gas fired stove (looks like a wood
burning stove) and it seems to work just fine without any sort of fan.
That is probably the best solution if the big concern is heating and
cooking.
 
H

HVAC Guy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Cogeneration is a good idea in many situations. The 1,000 watt
units that you mention would work OK for some applications,

It would work to keep the electric furnace fan motor running to heat
the house, power some compact flourescent lights, maybe even a TV,
during a multi-hour or multi-day power failure.

In reality, those 1000 watts would be wired such that the furnace fan
is always (and only) powered by that source during the heating season,
with the co-generated head used to heat the house. Combine that with
a variable-speed electronically commutated furnace motor and you've
got a great heating solution during spring and fall for a good chunk
of the US and all of Canada. Even if you never experience a power
failure in the winter, a co-generation unit like that could
theoretically be cost-neutral (ie no more expensive to run) vs a
conventional furnace.
but when we start talking about electric water heaters, electric
ovens and so forth

During a failure of grid power, we are not talking about a power
solution that keeps absolutely everything running.

The bare essential thing that must keep running to maintain minimal
disturbance to your lifestyle (if not survival) as well as to prevent
dammage to the home itself is the furnace fan. Everything else
becomes of minimal importance in that situation.

Besides, you will still have hot water if you have NG water heater.
people will probably still use a generator when there isn't
power.

The motivation to go out and buy a generator, let alone use one if you
already have one, would be significantly reduced during even a
multi-day power failure if your furnace fan was still operable and
your house was being heated normally during a power outage.
One of my relatives has a natural gas fired stove (looks like a
wood burning stove) and it seems to work just fine without any
sort of fan.

It's not going to heat the whole house during a multi-day power
failure during the winter.
That is probably the best solution if the big concern is
heating and cooking.

Having a warm place to sleep at night is the biggest concern during a
multi-day power failure in the winter. That, and to prevent your
pipes from freezing and real dammage setting in.

You can always drive around for take-out food, eat at a restaurant,
etc. But your SOL if your house gets cold.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
Guess you would need a source of NG. Where would we find that?
 
Y

You

Jan 1, 1970
0
no power no mc donalds, power faiures also take outr most gas stations
they need electric top pump gas. Florida is requiring they have backup
power.

only untill Power Utilities LEARN to put the Grid "Underground" in places
that have Tornado's, and Cane's with HIgh Winds.... when you build
"cheap", you get what you pay for.....
 
H

HVAC Guy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
Guess you would need a source of NG. Where would we find that?

I don't know where you live, but in Ontario practically every house
built for the past 30 years (and many built in the past 50 years) has
a NG pipe and is heated with NG. Electric heating isin't very
common. NG for laundry dryer and water heater is also common - if not
the rule.
 
H

HVAC Guy

Jan 1, 1970
0
A BAD storm like the 10 feet of snow currently battering NY, and
more likely these days with global warming, or widespread
hurricanes that take out a large chunk of the power grid can
make it impossible to drive to the local mc donalds for food
and fun.

Fine.

So if it's that bad, you leave and go live with some extended family
in Georgia or Florida.

But at least your house doesn't freeze up.
no power no mc donalds, power faiures also take outr most gas
stations they need electric top pump gas. Florida is requiring
they have backup power.

It's highly unlikely that an area larger than 50 miles in diameter
would be affected and hit with a multi-day power outage.
With the low cost oif imported generators today 300 bucks will keep
your furnace running they are a no brainer

I'm not sure I understand that statement.

Please repeat / elaborate.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
HVAC said:
I don't know where you live, but in Ontario practically every house
built for the past 30 years (and many built in the past 50 years) has
a NG pipe and is heated with NG. Electric heating isin't very
common. NG for laundry dryer and water heater is also common - if not
the rule.

I live in upstate NY. There not much natural gas installed. No
infrastructure. Heating is primarily wood or oil (I'm wood exclusive),
with some propane. I'm off the electric grid, so I use propane for
dryer, water heater, stove and fridge, about $113/month.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
HVAC said:
It's highly unlikely that an area larger than 50 miles in diameter
would be affected and hit with a multi-day power outage.
Did you forget the ice storm of '98? 30 days of no power for much of
Upstate NY and parts Ontario/Quebec.
 
H

HVAC Guy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
Did you forget the ice storm of '98? 30 days of no power for
much of Upstate NY and parts Ontario/Quebec.

And what did all those people do?

Did they ALL up and drive to Florida for those 30 days?

How many of them huddled in the cold houses?

They wouldn't have to if their NG furnace had a fan that was also
powered by NG.

Having a furnace fan powered by NG isin't going to mean you also have
a chicken in your pot, but it's a damn sight better then having a cold
house.

Smarten up.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
in Ontario practically every house
built for the past 30 years (and many built in the past 50 years) has
a NG pipe and is heated with NG.

Baloney. There's no way pipelines have been run to many rural areas.
Electric heating isin't very
common. NG for laundry dryer and water heater is also common - if not
the rule.

I think you need to get out more.

Wayne
 
H

HVAC Guy

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
Baloney. There's no way pipelines have been run to many rural
areas.

Many homes in rural areas are more than 30 years old, if not more than
50 years old.

The population density is quite low in rural areas (that's why they're
called rural).

Any community of 10k or more people in Ontario will have a NG pipline
going to it.

The paved concession roads (county roads) surrounding and in between
cities and towns have NG gaslines ready for farm houses to tap into if
they want.
I think you need to get out more.

What makes you an expert at NG availability in Ontario?
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk wrote:

Many homes in rural areas are more than 30 years old, if not more than
50 years old.

So what? Surely new rural homes are built every day, and a large
percentage of them don't have NG available.
The population density is quite low in rural areas (that's why they're
called rural).

Any community of 10k or more people in Ontario will have a NG pipline
going to it.

If entire small communities don't have NG, then that contradicts your
previous claim that "practically all" houses in the last 30 years have
NG.
The paved concession roads (county roads) surrounding and in between
cities and towns have NG gaslines ready for farm houses to tap into if
they want.

Some rural roads have pipelines, plenty don't. Same in the US.
What makes you an expert at NG availability in Ontario?

I'm not an expert, but I already debunked the same claim some months
back. Here's the link I posted then
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/Publications/statistics/sheu-summary/residential.cfm?attr=0.
Would you call 68% "practically all"? Why do you suppose there's an
"Ontario Propane Association" http://www.propane.ca/ if "practically
all" homes have NG?

Wayne
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
HVAC said:
And what did all those people do?

Did they ALL up and drive to Florida for those 30 days?

How many of them huddled in the cold houses?

They wouldn't have to if their NG furnace had a fan that was also
powered by NG.

Having a furnace fan powered by NG isin't going to mean you also have
a chicken in your pot, but it's a damn sight better then having a cold
house.

Smarten up.

There is very little installed base of natural gas. But many of us have
wood stoves. A natural gas furnace does no good if there's no pipes to
your house. Most of us have woods however. A lot of generators were
imported so the folks with oil furnaces would still have heat. We have
two wood stoves, and are already off-grid, so it wasn't a hardship.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
wmbjk said:
So what? Surely new rural homes are built every day, and a large
percentage of them don't have NG available.


If entire small communities don't have NG, then that contradicts your
previous claim that "practically all" houses in the last 30 years have
NG.


Some rural roads have pipelines, plenty don't. Same in the US.


I'm not an expert, but I already debunked the same claim some months
back. Here's the link I posted then
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/Publications/statistics/sheu-summary/residential.cfm?attr=0.
Would you call 68% "practically all"? Why do you suppose there's an
"Ontario Propane Association" http://www.propane.ca/ if "practically
all" homes have NG?

Wayne

I don't think the conversation was limited to only Ontario. NG is pretty
much unknown in Upstate NY, except in these 10k plus communities, of
which there are mighty few. HVAC guy knows one type of fuel apparently,
and doesn't think others exist.
 
H

HVAC Guy

Jan 1, 1970
0
Steve said:
There is very little installed base of natural gas. But many
of us have wood stoves.

I didn't know I was dealing with a third-world nation to our south.

Go ahead and burn up your forests. Trees are better when they're left
alone to grow.

What a shame you cut yours down and burn them.
 
S

Steve Spence

Jan 1, 1970
0
HVAC said:
I didn't know I was dealing with a third-world nation to our south.

Go ahead and burn up your forests. Trees are better when they're left
alone to grow.

What a shame you cut yours down and burn them.

I have 5 acres. It grows faster than I can burn it. It's sustainable,
and carbon neutral. Your natural gas is not.
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't think the conversation was limited to only Ontario. NG is pretty
much unknown in Upstate NY, except in these 10k plus communities, of
which there are mighty few. HVAC guy knows one type of fuel apparently,
and doesn't think others exist.

A while back Gymmy Bob made the same goofy claim about NG in Ontario.
Hmm... Google says the last post under his solarfart nym was Feb.2,
right about the time the very Gymmy-sounding HVAC guy made his first
post via http://news.aioe.org/ , a self-described "last resort" news
service. What a coinkydink. If HVAC guy is Gymmy's latest nym, he went
a whole eight days before giving away his identity by posting another
of his trademark boners.

Wayne
 
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