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Heathkit arising again?

J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
brent said:
Ha, I built the VTVM as a high school project, but I really wanted to
build the FET meter because it was more portable. I think the FET
meter was not available at the time of purchase (out of stock) so I
built the VTVM but always felt disappointing. I never gave it too
much thought, and certainly threw my VTVM away years ago. Now I find
out after all these years that I had built the preferable model. I
doubt I would have used it around the house instead of the very small
hand held meters which have been available for years.


You would not have been happy with the FET meter. I sure wasn't, that
was te only really disappointing kit fro Heathkit. Plus their chinzy
plastic cases broke at the fold within a couple years and then the top
lid sailed off. They though that a thin strip of extruded plastic could
double as a hinge. It couldn't.

VTVMs have another major advantage. They can perform in the presence of
humongous EM fields without erring and, most of all, without something
going *PHUT* in there. So to this day, if the going gets tough the old
VTMT comes out of the garage. Mine is from Eico.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I have remote temperature acquisition and heater controls in our
cabin, and a webcam looking at the driveway, so I can check the snow
depth and turn on the heat before we drive up. I can start the coffee
maker (kettle, drip cone) myself.

We've seeded our workplace with cams, two on each floor. When the
alarm company calls me at 2AM with (so far) false alarms, I can go
online and check the place out, instead of getting dressed and driving
in and meeting the cops there. Best use for the Web so far!

I remember when you built that. But you are an engineer. Imagine what it
means to people if a kit manufacturer offer the required pieces so even
non-EEs can do this.

Home automation is a totally underserved market. You cannot buy any
reliable stuff at reasonable prices, you can only build it yourself.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael said:
I built, and used both. The VTVM had less drift, but the IM-25 FET
meter was more versatile, including battery operation. Both were line
powered, and neither needed repaired in all the years I owned them. I
also assembled some other Heathkit VTVMs for others who got the kit and
didn't want to put it together.

You can see that the IM-25 did quite a few things a typical VTVM
didn't, while having the same isolation at the probe for DC
measurements.

http://www.szoncso.com/fritz6x6/IM-25.jpg


That's the deluxe table-top edition which was ok. I had the "portable"
one in the diarrhea-colored slanted suitcase. That was IMHO junk. But
the only junk I ever had from Heathkit, the rest of the stuff was (and
some still is) remarkably good, and most of all sturdy.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
I agree, but please ask yourself WHY it's such an under served market.

Why? Because the stuff is overpriced and companies attempt vendor-lock.
Some will not even sell to the public but you must pay an installer.
That's not going top fly for the masses. This is the reason, and
Heathkit (or any other company) could change that.

I service a customer that has early version of one of these:
<
>
<
>
<http://www.elanhomesystems.com>
It can do almost anything except pay the bills. This one is mostly
used for home security and running the entertainment system. My
guess(tm) is about $25,000 installed.
^^^^^^^^^

There you have the reason.
I don't actually service the Elan hardware. That's locked up tight by
the vendor by not releasing any technical information, not selling
component parts, and working only through authorized dealers. ...


And there you have the reason for the reason :)

... I have
no problem with that, ...


I do have a problem with that. I will not buy such a system, and won't
recommend it.

... except that it does get expensive. I work on
the plug in peripherals while the authorized dealer does the
programming (usually over the internet).

In the very distant past, I also thought the world needed a home
automation system. However, I wasn't so ambitious. I just wanted to
automate the kitchen appliances by making them talk to each other. Bar
code tags on everything, optical reader in the refrigerator door,
touch screen CRT in every corner, and a computer to orchestrate it
all. I also spent considerable time on a science fiction business
plan.

That's almost as if the Wright brothers had tried to build a space
shuttle right off the bat :)

When I presented the idea to the investment group, complete with a
somewhat working demonstration, they were skeptical but impressed. As
always, the members of the group did an impromptu marketing research
survey, which meant they asked their wives. The most common result
was an instant refusal to even listen to my proposal. All the wives
indicated that the kitchen was their territory and no electronic
gadgetry was going to cook, manage, control, organize, or otherwise do
anything in their kitchen. By the same logic, managing the home is
also the women's territory, where I would expect similar results to
any attempts at automation.

Because it was over-engineered. I had that same talk with my wife and
when looking at the X-10 options she was very enthusiastic. After I was
done she could hit a button next to the bed, turn around one more time,
and only get up after fresh coffee small wafted in. The espresso maker
could be started from the yard, without having to leave the table of
friends and walking upstairs. She likes ping-pong games, but that needs
light in the evenings. The switch is upstairs and suddenly that was no
longer a problem. The whole house could be lit with Christmas lights
with one press of a button on a remote. And so on. She loved it.

However, we quickly found out that the quality of most X-10 modules was
miserable and that the transmission protocol is very poor.

An important clue is in the introduction of microwave cooking and it's
effect on packaged foods. Microwave frozen dinners, which are
prepared by putting the contents into the microwave and just pushing a
button, have problems selling in some markets. Meanwhile, the same
packaged dinner, with some key ingredient missing (typically butter),
or which require stirring in the middle of cooking, sell much better.
That's because the woman of the house does not consider it cooking
unless she does something with the contents.

But ... that misses an important market: The students and the bachelors.
Those use microwaves for just about anything. For many of them nutrition
and eating is a necessary evil unless it's with the guys at the pub. On
of my grandpa's once summed it up: "Why don't we have a lid in out
bellies which we can open, throw some food in, close it, and be done
with it?".

Same in companies. Other than the coffee makre the most frequently used
piece of equipment in the lunch room is ... the microwave.

This effect also extends to the design of the oven itself. I once did
some work for a microwave oven manufactory on RF leakage issues. At
the time, I saw what would today be considered some fairly advanced
designs. One design was self calibrating so as the magnetron slowly
decreased in power over the life of the oven, the cooking time would
automatically be extended. In addition, a system where each package
was bar coded, and read inside the microwave oven, was devised. The
oven could then query a database, or use the data on the bar code, to
set the power level and cooking time. The problem is that none of
these ever made it out of the lab because of buyer resistance. Nobody
wanted a robot oven.

When trying to automate the entire house, you'll run into things like
the aforementioned territorial problem. Some areas are easy, such as
security, outside lighting, environmental control, computah
networking, and entertainment systems, which are generally considered
to be the mans territory. However, do anything within the confines of
the kitchen, laundry room, guest areas, or bedrooms, and you'll need
to find a way around this problem. As a clue, the previously
mentioned Elan system is operational throughout the house, except in
the kitchen. There's even an LCD panel in the bathrooms and garage,
but not the kitchen.

My wife would want one in the kitchen. For example, she'd like to be
able to control the sprinkler zones from there. Mounting the fairly ugly
utilitarian Toro box in the kitchen would, of course, not be an option.
Did Toro offer a remote with enough functions? Nope. She'd also like to
be able to program TV stuff from there. But no reasonably priced systems
exist. This is where a new company or a revived one like Heathkit can
come in.

Speaking only for myself, I see enough electronics and computahs in my
office and at customers. When I go home, the very last thing I want
do deal with is more electronics. ...


Same here. Turning a hobby into a career often snuffs out the hobby.

... There was a time in my life, when I
had no computer, no automation, no microwave oven, and no TV in the
house. I was looking for a life without the maintenance aspects and
complexities of computers. I may go back to that if I ever retire (or
burnout). Meanwhile, home automation and running my life by computer
is NOT on my wish list.

It sure is on my list (ours). Because every time the remaining X-10
stuff goes on the fritz I have to dive into electronics on a weekend
and, for the reasons you mentioned above, I really don't like that.
 
C

Charlie E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
A Raspberry pi or one of the similar things can run Linux hence access
Dropbox. A couple of simple accessory boards could provide clean i/o.
There are surely good webcam apps for Linux. All that needs now is a
good software library and a very good manual.

3rd party guys could provide higher-level apps for people who don't
want to program.

I used a mini-ITX running XP, because that's what I know how to do,
but that cost many times what one of those tiny Linux boards would
cost.

Especially with the new camera module designed for the Raspberry Pi!
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
A Raspberry pi or one of the similar things can run Linux hence access
Dropbox. A couple of simple accessory boards could provide clean i/o.
There are surely good webcam apps for Linux. All that needs now is a
good software library and a very good manual.

3rd party guys could provide higher-level apps for people who don't
want to program.

I used a mini-ITX running XP, because that's what I know how to do,
but that cost many times what one of those tiny Linux boards would
cost.

Those mini PCs have come down in cost a lot, but you have to add the
processor:

http://www.amazon.com/Foxconn-H61S-...=UTF8&qid=1371489673&sr=8-7&keywords=mini+itx
http://www.amazon.com/ECS-Elitegrou...UTF8&qid=1371489859&sr=8-17&keywords=mini+itx
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jeff said:
Ahem. You might enjoy the Heathkit GR-98 aircraft monitor receiver
with the backwards AGC (automatic gain control). The first units that
I saw worked fine on weak AM signals, but strong signals had low
audio. We had some difficulty convincing Benton Harbor that there was
a problem. It was eventually fixed with a "field modification".

There are other Heathkits with design problems, but that was the worst
that I can recall.

I have an IM-25 VOM and use it ocassional. Most commonly, I use a
Hi-V probe for measuring gieger counter voltages where anything less
than about a 50M load will ruin the measurement accuracy. The IM-25
11M input impedance is nice, but not quite high enough.

At one time, I had an IM-17 FET VOM, which may well be the worst meter
that Heath ever produced. All it ever did was drift, even with a real
mercury battery:
<http://www.heathkit.nu/heathkit_nu_IM-17.html>

One thing nice about Heathkits was that with a manual full of theory
of operation, waveforms, voltages, and troubleshooting instructions,
they were very easy to repair.

The best part of that was: People learned the stuff. Universities
nowadays sorely lack in that domain, when it comes to hands-on electronics.
 
J

John S

Jan 1, 1970
0
We had an alarm company do the security and fire system. The insurance folks
want a fire system, one that's certified by the makers and tested by the SFFD,
and checked regularly.
Okay. Now I understand.
 
T

Tom Del Rosso

Jan 1, 1970
0
Jim said:
Heathkit was fine for radios and other RF-related, but was fondly
known as HeapShit otherwise ;-)

What about their TV kits? That's RF but I always doubted they were any
good.
 
I built a few of their TV's back in the 60's. consumer reports rated the picture as being fuzzy, after which they sent out a kit with new rf video peaking coils to increase the video bandwidth. That improved it slightly. Hardest part was adjusting the convergence.
Also built a DX60 ham radio transmitter, and still wonder to this day why you needed to have a vertical wire next to the rf output tube which needed to be wiggled around for best performance!
Full confession; I was using an external VFO instead of crystals while I was still just a Novice. Hopefully the statue of limitations has run out on that one!

Bob
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I got a couple of Atom based mini-ITX boxes from logicsupply.com, all assembled
and tested. Their support was great. I had my IT guy install XP on them.

The Atoms is an amazing achievement by Intel. I ran a 1-1/2h clinical
trial completely on a small battery and, to the amazement of everybody,
at the end the battery showed that we have could gone on for at least
another 3h.
 
F

Fred Abse

Jan 1, 1970
0
and still wonder to this day why you needed to have a
vertical wire next to the rf output tube which needed to be wiggled around
for best performance!

Look up "neutralization".
 
J

josephkk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tried to answer, put hitting Next returned to the first question page,
even after selecting some answers :).
Sounds like you have scripts globally disabled. Kind of brute force when
a more nuanced approach is needed and available. Use firefox and the
noscript addon (preferably with ghostery); very fine grained script
control.
Building equipment from kits made sense in the days of point to point
wiring (tube sockets and soldering posts). Making equipment
commercially, required a huge amount of manual labor, making equipment
extremely costly, at least when measuring how many hours a radio
assembly line worker had to work in order to buy the radio he/she had
assembled.

By shifting this assembly cost to the "free" hobbyist, made it
possible to sell kits much cheaper than ready made products.

In the days of point to point wiring, making
modifications/improvements was pretty easy.

With PCBs and especially surface mounted components, commercial
assembly costs dropped significantly.

Whoa, there is a big time difference between those two technologies
becoming common. PCBs made the grade in the late 1950s and SMD made the
grade in the early 1980s
However, in order to let an average hobbyist solder components to a
PCB, larger than necessary tracks are needed.

Nonsense. Works just fine even today, just no SMD for (less than high
end) hobbyists.
Handling a large number
of unmarked SMDs is error prone. Hand soldering a multipin SOIC is
demanding for a hobbyist.

IMHO, there is no point of hand soldering individual components, it is
much more reliable and cost efficient to use industrial wave soldering
for that.

Wave soldering????? That too is defunct. Hobbyists (rather high end) can
convert toaster ovens to reflow soldering machines. That has been "out
there" for over a decade. JUASE.
A kit producer might survive if it provides some factory made building
blocks that can be combined into various devices. I am thinking about
something between Mini-Circuits and Elecraft.

That has been tried a few times. No traction. PICkit, dogbone, and
RaspberryPi are better ideas now
When people with wildly different skills are building kits, a support
organization is required and this costs a lot, even if some
peer-to-per support groups will handle most of the work. Still
supplying replacement parts is going to be costly.

Sounds to me that you really need to visit places like sparkfun, olimex,
and elefun.
Anyway, "kit building" in the future is more about connecting software
and firmware components together rather than joining resistors,
capacitors and transistors.

More like more freeform module connection like your 3 paragraphs above
idea for kit producers.

You really need to "get out" more.

?-)
 
J

josephkk

Jan 1, 1970
0
I strongly believe there is a point. Nothing beats the feeling of
accomplishment in a kid or young student after they complete a kit and
it all works. When it doesn't work it provides a really good opportunity
to hone troubleshooting skills. That pays off on the first real job, big
time.

I learned the most not from building Heathkit gear but from helping
others salvage their capsized Heathkit projects. "I heard a sharp *POP*
from where those 6164 tubes are and then there was smoke, but I can't ^^^^ 6146 ?
find where that came from ...", stuff like that.


?;-)
 
J

josephkk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Heathkits helped a generation of kids to really understand
electronics. That model, build working instruments from parts, may not
work any more. I wonder where the next generation of electronic
circuit designers (not chip designers) will come from.

There's not much point to classic ham radio any more, either, what
with cell phones, ipads, internet, and Skype type things.
Oh but there is. Moreover it is nearly the original point from the
original enabling legislation. Not so much all the variations since then.
Just the same, it seems to be dying.

?-)
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
josephkk said:
Oh but there is. ...


To most people that only becomes apparent, and frighteningly so, after a
major nature event (Earthquake, hurricane, flooding, et cetera) has
wiped out the usual communications infrastructure. It becomes kind of
impossible to send off a text message when all the cell towers in the
vicinity are floating around in muck.


Moreover it is nearly the original point from the
original enabling legislation. Not so much all the variations since then.
Just the same, it seems to be dying.

Not in the US. In contrast to much of the rest of the world ham radio
licenses are actually on the increase.
 
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