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Help copying program from C167CR Chip

Leggyownz

Feb 7, 2017
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I have a C167CR chip here with a program on it that I need copied so I can duplicate this program over to another chip. Our board repair company isn't able to copy it, the programmer for this chip is no longer available either. Can't find any help through google. Who knows of a way I can do this or knows of a company that could handle the duplication of the chip?

Thanks in advance
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
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Generally speaking, this is often (intentionally) not possible.
 

kellys_eye

Jun 25, 2010
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I don't see any reference to software protection within the device - maybe it's only noted in the programmer documentation? - but if there isn't any implemented then you're going to have to jury-rig an adapter.

Do you have access to the software used to program a device?
 

Leggyownz

Feb 7, 2017
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I'm somewhat new to this. I've done chip copying on EPROMs plenty of times but when it has come to more complicated chips, I haven't messed with them too much if it wasn't supported by the programmer I already have. I see Mouser has the CA166 Compiler kit that works for the CA167 for around $400. Considering it's a compiler kit and not a decompiler kit, would this even fully work for what I need?
 

kellys_eye

Jun 25, 2010
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I note the device is available as mask-programmed ROM or for external memory. Perhaps yours is masked ROM? Certainly would be the case for a mass-produced item. In which case you've no chance.
 

Leggyownz

Feb 7, 2017
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I presume if that is the case, that there would be no way of telling if that is true for this particular one correct?
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
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The difference should be noted in the device markings.

If it is mask programmed then, In theory, you can dissolve the epoxy and read the program with a microscope. In practice, it's probably cheaper to buy a new whatever it is.
 

Leggyownz

Feb 7, 2017
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Well sadly it belongs to a $4,000 lab/industrial chiller and we have well over ten of them with the same 3 problems. I know my boss won't let me drop the project. Full part number of the specific chip I have is SAB-C167CR-LM HA+
 

kellys_eye

Jun 25, 2010
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The datasheet spec's show that it uses external memory

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/pro...family/c166-family/c167crsr/sab-c167cr-lm-ha/

Show us a picture of the complete board - the memory may well be off-chip and a simple device change could fix your issues.

What tests did you make to prove this chip as being the fault? It's not usual for them to go faulty - certainly not on multiple machines - so maybe the fault is elsewhere?
 
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Leggyownz

Feb 7, 2017
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Okay so picture attached. The problem I'm having is very odd and I don't know what particularly could cause the problem. I'm currently dealing with very limited tools for this sort of work. I don't know of your knowledge on chillers so I'll give brief explanation. A chiller has a pump, heater and compressor. In some cases they are used to circulate water or coolant through machines or equipment to keep them cool or warm. The problem we have with this one is that the cooling works upon startup. After hitting the stop button to stop the operation or if it makes it to set temperature and the compressor stops, the compressor will not start back up again until the power is switched off and switched back on again.

For testing, I started with the basics. There is a relay in the base of the unit for the compressor and I followed the 4v power to switch that relay, from the relay up to the head of the unit to this board and to the bottom right (in the picture) white relay in that cluster of 4 relays. They are signal relays and my multimeter won't pick up the signal voltage when it is told to turn on or off on the coil. As a precaution I changed the relay to find the relay not to be the issue. After the relay I can't follow by continuity where the signal directly comes from because it is a multi layer board and there are several pins (don't remember how many at this time) on this chip that have good continuity back to that relay.

Sadly in this business I find corrupted programs far more than I should which leads me to the suspicion of the program in this board. However if you are willing to help me out on a more proper diagnosis, I'm more than willing to go that route. I can get closer pictures around the board if you would like as well.
 

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kellys_eye

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Chance of a software issue are less than 0.01%. This is going to be a straightforward 'electrical' problem.

Don't you have an electric schematic of the main switching arrangements i.e. supplies, relays, thermistors, fuses etc? Whilst I appreciate the manufacturers won't supply a schematic of the main processor board, the basic electrical drawings SHOULD be available.

If so, please upload.

Also, show a closer and clear picture of this area of board:

Screenshot from 2018-01-10 16:34:15.png
 

Leggyownz

Feb 7, 2017
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I've uploaded multiple pictures. I just handed the board to my listing department for them to take pictures. As far as the schematics, I've been just looking them up as I go for each component but I haven't looked up each component yet. The only two items I've looked up were the relay and the chip. Link for relay below. You're definitely right on the manufacturer not releasing the schematics. Most of all of the manufacturers that we deal with won't even give us technical support or sell us parts let alone give us a wiring diagram or board schematic. Makes it much harder.

The pictures should be much clearer and easier to see. The first one was just with my cellphone. The second picture is what you requested specifically.

Relay: http://www.te.com/commerce/Document...rchrtrv&DocNm=108-98002&DocType=SS&DocLang=EN
 

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kellys_eye

Jun 25, 2010
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What rating are the compressors/heaters? Those relays are only rated for 60W power handling. Sure they don't operate external contactors?

I could understand motors/heaters not stopping (by virtue of 'welded contacts') but not a non-starting issue. Are there any intermediate control devices between the circuit board output and the high power items?

How old are these units? Make/model?

The only 'usual suspects' we find in electronics that create weird problems are the electrolytic capacitors as shown

capacitor.png

capacitor2.png

(both shown in the lower right part of the images) - the top image has 'potential' to be troublesome given the slight 'doming' I see.

Pictures of the internal wiring arrangement might help too.
 

Leggyownz

Feb 7, 2017
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The white relay sends 4v down to another relay in the base of the unit that controls the compressor. The heater would be the same way except with the difference of its primary relay being in a different location.
 

Leggyownz

Feb 7, 2017
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Here are the pictures of the internal wiring. I have everything laid out in a way that I can test it with it open without the possibility of shorting anything out. I'll go over a brief explanation of all the wiring as to where it's going to make it a bit easier to follow since it's a mess. A lot of wiring gets compacted into a small head that sits a top the unit.

In picture (6) at the bottom of the board we have been looking at, this wiring goes to the base of the unit, controlling the compressor and its safety checks, fans etc.

To the left of that, it's not easily seen are some red and blue wires. This wiring goes to the screen inverter.

On the right side of the board on the back just a bit above the wiring at the bottom is the flat ribbon cable for the display.

Going right up that right side are two more flat cables with red connectors. All of three of these go to the buttons on the front of the head and one of them is for the over temperature adjustment switch.

Above that is an 4 pin white connector slightly hidden behind some other wires. These control the pump which is the black motor with the fan in the center of the picture.

The green 8 pin connector above that is the cable between the power board and this board. Obviously supplying main power but a few of the wires are going back to the power board to control the heat.

To the left are two white wires that solder in directly. These are for the temperature probe.
 

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kellys_eye

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After hitting the stop button to stop the operation or if it makes it to set temperature and the compressor stops, the compressor will not start back up again until the power is switched off and switched back on again.
How long do you wait?

There will by some hysteresis present in the system. Is the temperature sensor in the correct position? What device is used to sense the temperature?

Show a picture of the power supply (?) board at the lower part of the image.
 

Leggyownz

Feb 7, 2017
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Well I've left them run, leaving the setting to -40, saw it in the negatives around -20, left and came back later and it was at 0 and the cooling was no longer running. Most times now, I turn it off, give it about 20 seconds, turn it back on and it should have been off long enough to kick on within the next 5 seconds but never happens and I've left it run like that for a full work day (8 hours).

Do you mean temperature of the bath, as in the liquid that's being cooled? If so, trying to trace the probe terminals around the board, I only ended up with continuity at one chip. With one terminal I was getting continuity to all the power legs of the IC's so I switched to the other terminal to find just that CMOS chip getting continuity to it. Specifically pin 3. Link to the chip below.

http://www.tij.co.jp/jp/lit/ds/slos052d/slos052d.pdf

Pictures attached of the power boardnoname (2).jpg noname (3).jpg noname (4).jpg noname (5).jpg
 

Alec_t

Jul 7, 2015
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Is the big blue cylindrical thing, top left in the last pic, a memory back-up battery or supercap? If so, is its voltage correct?
 

Leggyownz

Feb 7, 2017
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It's a battery and upon checking it's at 0 volts. I have another on board on my desk (actually the one I've been taking pictures of, and it's at 2v, Not sure what problem the one on my desk has. It's been floating around here for a while. I'll get a new one ordered. Is it possible to be causing a problem such as this one?
 
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