household outdoor/wet location connections

[Don Y]

Hi Thomas,

Sometimes you have to change the rules when there's no other option, as in this
case.

Yes, of course!

Why aren't weatherproof covers available for communications jacks (phone, data,
cable/sat, etc.)????? Surely there's a market for such.

Oh, I have some very *nice* weatherproof RJ11 connector plates!
But, they are for a single jack in a 1G jbox. When you start
wanting to mix-n-match assorted connectors, it gets a bit
harder to find things that were designed with this in mind.

For example, the "three module" wall plates that I use throughout
the house are a slightly different style than the wall plates that
I've used for the other normal outlets (and switches, for that
matter! Though switches tend to be located higher on the wall
than electric outlets and network/phone/TV connectors!). This
isn't a real problem because the plates are down low where you don't
tend to notice the little details of their styling (as long as
the color is correct and they are of roughly the same size -- note
that this is actually not standardized!).

And, they tend to not be located in close proximity to each other.
Electrical outlets are spaced at ~12 ft (or less) and you don't have
that many "communication outlets" in a given room (even with *my*
level of obsession!)

*But*, things are different when it comes to the kitchen! There,
switches *and* outlets tend to be "up where you can see them".
And, far more plentiful (every ~3 ft). So, "communication outlets"
are "up close and personal" and have a much greater chance of
being located close to an electrical outlet!

As such, slight differences in the styles of the wall plates
become obvious. (You also tend to notice the fact that the
individual "connector modules" are not seamlessly part of the
wall plate! Something that you can easily ignore when they
are lurking down by the floor! :-/ )

I have two such "triple" outlets (phone/TV/network) located in the
counter area -- another in an exposed "pantry" area (like a nook
in the wall... great place, IMO, for a little email station,
recipe display, telephone, etc. as it is NOT part of the normal
work surface). With outlets every ~3ft, its really hard not to
locate the communication outlets near a switch/electrical outlet.
In my case, it was less visually *assaulting* to space them a
few inches apart (can't put them in the same Jbox without a
barrier -- and, that would just complicate the whole wall plate
issue! "Hi, I want a wall plate that will support a duplex
receptacle, a single switch, an RJ45, an F connector and an
RJ11. What aisle are those located in?"

As to the general lack of selection regarding these sorts of
things, I suspect it is driven by the market. I don't know
*anyone* with CAT5 in their walls. Most folks go the wireless
route (no thank you!) due to the costs of having all that
wire strung -- even in "new construction" (I have advised
several friends building custom homes to do this. None seem
to have heeded my advice. Wireless *seems* so much more
flexible: "We don't have to decide WHERE we should put the
outlets...")

<shrug>

 

[Thomas]

Just a thought:

When the wife and I were discussing building a house someday, and we were were
looking at the communications area (voice and data), we decided that, since all
power wiring was to be in EMT conduit, all comms cable would be run in EMT
conduit as well. 3/4" EMT minimum for comms, which would easily permit two
RG-6/RG-59 coax and six CAT-5e cables to be pulled. More expensive, yes, be *we*
were to build the house, not contract it out.

(In the last 20 years I've worked as a carpenter, electrician, plumber,
sheetrock installer, painter, roofer, tile-setter, equipment operator, vinyl
siding installer, mason, and a few other trades.)

By running EMT between the server/comms room to each wall box (with no pull
boxes where possible), if necessary it would be a simple matter to pull another
cable to a given box for added functionality.

Since we had decided on drop ceilings throughout the house, running the EMT
overhead would permit easy access to those pull boxes that had to be installed.

God Bless.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Thomas,

Just a thought:

When the wife and I were discussing building a house someday, and we were were
looking at the communications area (voice and data), we decided that, since all
power wiring was to be in EMT conduit, all comms cable would be run in EMT

Not all localities require power to run in EMT. The few places that
I've lived that *did* were actually surprising (i.e., the requirement
had little rational basis).

conduit as well. 3/4" EMT minimum for comms, which would easily permit two
RG-6/RG-59 coax and six CAT-5e cables to be pulled. More expensive, yes, be *we*
were to build the house, not contract it out.

(In the last 20 years I've worked as a carpenter, electrician, plumber,
sheetrock installer, painter, roofer, tile-setter, equipment operator, vinyl
siding installer, mason, and a few other trades.)

By running EMT between the server/comms room to each wall box (with no pull
boxes where possible), if necessary it would be a simple matter to pull another
cable to a given box for added functionality.

It's not always easy to do that. Nor to guarantee that you'll be
able to make that pull at a later date (in the presence of existing
cables). If you want to eliminate pull boxes *and* allow the EMT
to be "hidden" (behind finished walls/ceilings), the route you
can take is severely constrained. No tight bends, reduce the total
number of bends, etc.

E.g., running a new, below grade electrical service is a great example
of this. Since the cable (at LEAST #6SE-3 or better) has to be pulled
through an oversized conduit to get to the riser, there are rules
regarding minimum turn radius, total angular displacement, etc.
And that's with a conduit *significantly* larger than the cable
diameter!

You could find yourself, after the fact, with lots of pretty conduit
that doesn't give you the flexibility you *thought* it would.

Since we had decided on drop ceilings throughout the house, running the EMT
overhead would permit easy access to those pull boxes that had to be installed.

This can help, some -- as can an attic or basement. But note that fire
code will usually require firestops that effectively interrupt that
open space. You'll be able to do more "point to point" runs than you
would, otherwise. But still have to deal with getting into and out
of that space (i.e., two 90's at a minimum).

You might find it better (at least for comms wiring, etc.) to spend the
money you would have spent on the EMT for extra cable, instead. And,
just run blind drops inside walls wherever you might *conceivably*
want them. Then (!!!!) keep good records of where those drops actually
are in the walls (along with the relative positions of adjacent
studs) so you can open any wall cavity *knowing* you'll find the drop
within inches of the opening you cut!

This would especially be helpful for connections "mounted high" where
you don't want to commit to a "visible indication" of their presence
(at the time of construction). E.g., I have three modest sized
(12 to 19" dia) touch panels mounted on walls throughout the connections
for which will require a fair bit of work to *hide* if they are
ever removed/taken out of service.

(At least that's how *I* would tackle it for new construction)

 

[Thomas]

Hi Thomas,



Not all localities require power to run in EMT. The few places that
I've lived that *did* were actually surprising (i.e., the requirement
had little rational basis).

No, not all localities do. Mine doesn't. This doesn't prevent me from going
above and beyond code, however.

BTW, I do own copies of both the IRC and NEC (the NEC because the IRC changes
the all the chapter and section numbers and I am more familiar with the NEC than
the IRC).

It's not always easy to do that. Nor to guarantee that you'll be
able to make that pull at a later date (in the presence of existing
cables). If you want to eliminate pull boxes *and* allow the EMT
to be "hidden" (behind finished walls/ceilings), the route you
can take is severely constrained. No tight bends, reduce the total
number of bends, etc.

No, it isn't. Where the need was indicated, 1" or larger EMT would have been
run. All necessary pull boxes would be documented as to size and location on the
comms plan, which would be on display in the server/comms room.

My idea was to document everything on the plans, electrical, comms, plumbing,
HVAC, etc., not just for whomever had the house after use, but for myself.
(Things have a habit of moving by themselves over the years...at least thats
what my memory tells me.)

E.g., running a new, below grade electrical service is a great example
of this. Since the cable (at LEAST #6SE-3 or better) has to be pulled
through an oversized conduit to get to the riser, there are rules
regarding minimum turn radius, total angular displacement, etc.
And that's with a conduit *significantly* larger than the cable
diameter!

Conduit is inexpensive compared to the cost of time, equipment, labor, etc.,
required to do the the first time. By considering not only the present
requirements but possible future requirements (as I did for this house), and
making allowances for those possible future requirements, the size of conduit
can be increased if necessary to allow for future expansion.

And, no offense, but I am well aware of the bending requirements for conduits
and the maximum conduit fill. Also, I am aware of the (typically) 25-pound pull
force limit for CAT-5e.

Pulling lubricant is a wire/cable pullers friend.

You could find yourself, after the fact, with lots of pretty conduit
that doesn't give you the flexibility you *thought* it would.

Taking the time to carefully consider current needs as well as future needs
helps to mitigate this. ALL future needs cannot be practically allowed for, of
course.

FMC (flexible metal conduit) can be fish through walls about as easily as
fishing a cable. Actually, I've found in many cases fishing FMC to be easier to
fish down a wall: it's stiffer and less likely to curl up *IN* the wall and not
drop down to the hole cut for the box.

This can help, some -- as can an attic or basement. But note that fire
code will usually require firestops that effectively interrupt that
open space. You'll be able to do more "point to point" runs than you
would, otherwise. But still have to deal with getting into and out
of that space (i.e., two 90's at a minimum).

This was taken into consideration as well. Again, careful planning is required here.

I have used a fire caulk (expands when heated to further seal the gap) on a job
before. This was one of the requirements I had added to our spec list.

You might find it better (at least for comms wiring, etc.) to spend the
money you would have spent on the EMT for extra cable, instead. And,
just run blind drops inside walls wherever you might *conceivably*
want them. Then (!!!!) keep good records of where those drops actually
are in the walls (along with the relative positions of adjacent
studs) so you can open any wall cavity *knowing* you'll find the drop
within inches of the opening you cut!

Good point. However, after working in commercial wiring running conduit of many
types, I prefer having that point-to-point chase. Anyone who's crawled under a
house or in an attic with barely enough room to breath, let alone actually move
around, will (hopefully) understand my preference.

This would especially be helpful for connections "mounted high" where
you don't want to commit to a "visible indication" of their presence
(at the time of construction). E.g., I have three modest sized
(12 to 19" dia) touch panels mounted on walls throughout the connections
for which will require a fair bit of work to *hide* if they are
ever removed/taken out of service.

Yes, may be hard to hide.

We decided *NOT* to worry so much about later moving/removing connections point
(jacks, etc.) as patching drywall was not a problem (and I've patched *a lot* of
drywall in my years. Years ago I removed a window in a house, closed in the
hole, and patched the drywall and the vinyl siding. My wife was amazed that she
couldn't tell where the window had been on the inside, and could barely tell
where it had been on the outside.

(At least that's how *I* would tackle it for new construction)

Everyone has their own ideas. It all depends on their needs, circumstances,
desires, and whatever limitations they have.

We chose to list our needs and desires, then shoot for the moon, see how far we
could get, then go from there.

God Bless.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Thomas,

No, not all localities do. Mine doesn't. This doesn't prevent me from going
above and beyond code, however.

BTW, I do own copies of both the IRC and NEC (the NEC because the IRC changes
the all the chapter and section numbers and I am more familiar with the NEC than
the IRC).

But, of course, what *really* matters is the local code. And *it*
consists largely of references to the IRC, etc. -- EXCEPT when there
is something that the yokels decided they were more "expert" about :-/

No, it isn't. Where the need was indicated, 1" or larger EMT would have been
run. All necessary pull boxes would be documented as to size and location on the
comms plan, which would be on display in the server/comms room.

My idea was to document everything on the plans, electrical, comms, plumbing,
HVAC, etc., not just for whomever had the house after use, but for myself.
(Things have a habit of moving by themselves over the years...at least thats
what my memory tells me.)

<grin> You'd be amazed at how easily building documents tend to "get
lost" over the life of a house. I went to the city to see what
information they had on *this* house. A few minutes later, they came
back with the file -- completely empty. "Your house wasn't in the city
limits when it was built" yadayadayada...

So, I drafted an approximate plan (a tape rule and AutoCAD) so that I
could do simple things:
- how many tiles will we need to purchase to tile the floor
- where are each of the outlets/switches located
- what are the branch circuits servicing each of the above,
etc.

Some time later, I encountered someone with a similar floor plan (minor
differences: he didn't have a sunken living room, no fireplace,
different elevation, etc.) who *had* a copy of his original drawing
set. This helped me figure out where the footings were located,
which walls were load bearing, etc.

Conduit is inexpensive compared to the cost of time, equipment, labor, etc.,
required to do the the first time. By considering not only the present
requirements but possible future requirements (as I did for this house), and
making allowances for those possible future requirements, the size of conduit
can be increased if necessary to allow for future expansion.

Yes. It is just phenomenally hard to predict the future! :>

E.g., when I put in the front sidewalk, I ran three lengths of 4" dia
pipe under it (three different locations) -- "for future use". That
was almost 20 years ago and I *think* I will have *a* use for one of
those channels this summer (another irrigation line).

I'll do the same when I replace the (concrete) driveway but *never*
expect to need them (a case of doing something to *ensure* you won't
need it? Which of murphy's laws/corollaries is that?? :> )

And, no offense, but I am well aware of the bending requirements for conduits
and the maximum conduit fill. Also, I am aware of the (typically) 25-pound pull
force limit for CAT-5e.

Pulling lubricant is a wire/cable pullers friend.

I use "muletape" (TmReg) when I'm pulling through EMT -- which is
typically only for power cable (the stuff I have would probably be
overkill for comm cable). So far, it has worked admirably.

Taking the time to carefully consider current needs as well as future needs
helps to mitigate this. ALL future needs cannot be practically allowed for, of
course.

FMC (flexible metal conduit) can be fish through walls about as easily as
fishing a cable. Actually, I've found in many cases fishing FMC to be easier to
fish down a wall: it's stiffer and less likely to curl up *IN* the wall and not
drop down to the hole cut for the box.

I've not had any problems with any of my blind drops getting hung up
in the wall (everything here has to be fed from above -- no basement).
But, then again, I would tape the CAT3, CAT5 and RG6Q together as I
fed them into the wall. The RG6 really tends to enforce its will
on the other two stragglers (who might otherwise be more inclined
to coil up)

This was taken into consideration as well. Again, careful planning is required here.

I have used a fire caulk (expands when heated to further seal the gap) on a job
before. This was one of the requirements I had added to our spec list.

It isn't required in many localities. Nor, in all locations *within*
a building. OTOH, some parts of buildings (and some *types* of
buildings) have extra needs. E.g., 2 hour fire resistance of certain
walls, ceilings, etc.

Frankly, I don't see the issue of *not* using these things everywhere.
Yeah, it's an extra labor step. Yeah, the caulk is considerably
more expensive than "silicone caulk". But, in the grand scheme of
things, it's just a little blip.

Good point. However, after working in commercial wiring running conduit of many
types, I prefer having that point-to-point chase. Anyone who's crawled under a
house or in an attic with barely enough room to breath, let alone actually move
around, will (hopefully) understand my preference.

Frankly, my "drool item" would be a basement + sub-basement. The former
so you can *work* without having to worry about appearances, cleaning up
"any time soon", etc. And the latter for long term storage.

But, I think the stairs would be annoying -- especially as I get older
:< So, add a freight elevator to the list (think about the sorts of
tools and equipment you would likely want "down there"!).

Basements are *so* much nicer than attics, IMO. Quiet, comfortable,
isolated, "secure", etc.

Yes, may be hard to hide.

We decided *NOT* to worry so much about later moving/removing connections point
(jacks, etc.) as patching drywall was not a problem (and I've patched *a lot* of
drywall in my years. Years ago I removed a window in a house, closed in the
hole, and patched the drywall and the vinyl siding. My wife was amazed that she
couldn't tell where the window had been on the inside, and could barely tell
where it had been on the outside.

The style in this part of the country is for textured walls and
ceilings. *Lots* of texture. I suspect some of this is cultural
but even more of it is to lower the quality of workmanship
required (!). I've been (slowly) going through the house trying
to replace walls to remove all of the texture. A *lot* harder
as you have to be really good at taping and finish sanding, etc.

But, it just looks *so* much nicer than the knockdown textures!
Especially when you can see the reflection of a light source
*along* the wall -- without obvious signs of dips and bumps!

A friend on the east coast has a VERY aggressive texture on his
walls -- almost half an inch thick! I have no idea how he can:
- keep it clean (you could "store grapes" in the recesses in
the texture! imagine dust/dirt!!)
- cut into it (without *breaking* large pieces)
- repair those cuts, "seamlessly"

 

[Thomas]

Hi Thomas,

Hello. How are you doing?

But, of course, what *really* matters is the local code. And *it*
consists largely of references to the IRC, etc. -- EXCEPT when there
is something that the yokels decided they were more "expert" about :-/

Of Course. Always, always, *ALWAYS* check with the local building department god
to find out *their* code requirements.

<grin> You'd be amazed at how easily building documents tend to "get
lost" over the life of a house. I went to the city to see what
information they had on *this* house. A few minutes later, they came
back with the file -- completely empty. "Your house wasn't in the city
limits when it was built" yadayadayada...

Yes, they do get lost/never archived. I would provide them, in one location
(mounted to the wall in a manner they could be easily removed for use). If they
get lost after I'm gone then, sorry, I provided the documentation, best I could
do. If the docs get lost/damaged/destroyed/ no offense, but oh well.

The local BD would be offered a copy as well.

So, I drafted an approximate plan (a tape rule and AutoCAD) so that I
could do simple things:
- how many tiles will we need to purchase to tile the floor
- where are each of the outlets/switches located
- what are the branch circuits servicing each of the above,
etc.

I used QuickCAD (poor mans AutoCAD; it does what I need it to). And yes, I've
had to completely measure a house, inside and out, and draw up a plan.

Some time later, I encountered someone with a similar floor plan (minor
differences: he didn't have a sunken living room, no fireplace,
different elevation, etc.) who *had* a copy of his original drawing
set. This helped me figure out where the footings were located,
which walls were load bearing, etc.

Load-bearing walls/supports should, IMHO, *always* be identified on final
as-built drawings.

I use "muletape" (TmReg) when I'm pulling through EMT -- which is
typically only for power cable (the stuff I have would probably be
overkill for comm cable). So far, it has worked admirably.

Pulling lubricant can make pulling wire/cable even easier then using a fish
tape/muletape alone. Except, of course, that time on the job we popped a 2000
Lb-test mule*ROPE* pulling a 200-pair phone cable through a 3-inch RNC. FOUR
TIMES. The last time the fellow on the pulling said the last time the mulerope
snapped just outside the conduit. It shot down into like a bullet.) We ended up
guesstimating where the cable was and dug up the conduit to re-attach the
mulerope. Seems the cable got hung on the end of the pipe that wasn't fully
seated in the bell end.

It isn't required in many localities. Nor, in all locations *within*
a building. OTOH, some parts of buildings (and some *types* of
buildings) have extra needs. E.g., 2 hour fire resistance of certain
walls, ceilings, etc.

Frankly, I don't see the issue of *not* using these things everywhere.
Yeah, it's an extra labor step. Yeah, the caulk is considerably
more expensive than "silicone caulk". But, in the grand scheme of
things, it's just a little blip.

Sadly, no, it isn't required in all localities. And I don't see the issue of
*not* using fire-stopping (of suitable kind) where warranted, considering the
cost of building the structure in the first place.

Frankly, my "drool item" would be a basement + sub-basement. The former
so you can *work* without having to worry about appearances, cleaning up
"any time soon", etc. And the latter for long term storage.

But, I think the stairs would be annoying -- especially as I get older
:< So, add a freight elevator to the list (think about the sorts of
tools and equipment you would likely want "down there"!).

Basements are *so* much nicer than attics, IMO. Quiet, comfortable,
isolated, "secure", etc.

Down here in The South, basements are not very common from what I
know/researched. I don't why, but yes, a basement is very useful.

And I researched the requirements on residential elevators, as the wife pointed
out the very good possibility of needing one, considering her bad hip would make
climbing up and down stairs everyday a chore.

If the car is no more than 15 sq. ft. in area (at least here in SC), a license
would not be required for a residential elevator. We chose Thyssen-Krupp as the
manufacturer as of all the elevators I've traveled in, T-Ks are the smoothest
and quietest operating. And I liked the simple engineering and design of the T-K
residential elevator systems. I even downloaded all the documentation for one of
T-Ks models, wiring diagrams and all.

However, I personally would prefer installing a commercial-style elevator, even
though it requires an operators license.

The style in this part of the country is for textured walls and
ceilings. *Lots* of texture. I suspect some of this is cultural
but even more of it is to lower the quality of workmanship
required (!). I've been (slowly) going through the house trying
to replace walls to remove all of the texture. A *lot* harder
as you have to be really good at taping and finish sanding, etc.

Once (if) you get the hang of mudding and taping (untextured) drywall, it is
fairly easy. I'm not an expert at it, but as much taping and mudding as I've
done I should be.

But, it just looks *so* much nicer than the knockdown textures!
Especially when you can see the reflection of a light source
*along* the wall -- without obvious signs of dips and bumps!

It does look a lot nicer without all the texturing, a (properly done) sand
texture aside (haven't yet quite got the hang of sand texturing).

A friend on the east coast has a VERY aggressive texture on his
walls -- almost half an inch thick! I have no idea how he can:
- keep it clean (you could "store grapes" in the recesses in
the texture! imagine dust/dirt!!)
- cut into it (without *breaking* large pieces)
- repair those cuts, "seamlessly"

*HALF AN INCH?????* That's a typical layer of sheetrock!

Better him than me to clean it. Bet cats would love to climb his walls!

God Bless.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Thomas,

I used QuickCAD (poor mans AutoCAD; it does what I need it to). And yes, I've
had to completely measure a house, inside and out, and draw up a plan.

I did the interior and exterior of the house plus the plot itself.
Helpful for keeping track of where I buried all the irrigation lines
(no fun "hunting" for them at some later date!)

Sadly, no, it isn't required in all localities. And I don't see the issue of
*not* using fire-stopping (of suitable kind) where warranted, considering the
cost of building the structure in the first place.

Simple: the folks doing the work are usually not the ones who will
be LIVING in the building! :<

Down here in The South, basements are not very common from what I
know/researched. I don't why, but yes, a basement is very useful.

I think you might have problems with water table (depending on
where you actually are). Here I think they just don't see the
"need" and they represent a sizable construction expense.

And I researched the requirements on residential elevators, as the wife pointed
out the very good possibility of needing one, considering her bad hip would make
climbing up and down stairs everyday a chore.

I think you can get "chair lifts" for that sort of thing. A friend
diagnosed with ALS is going through that process, now. :<

If the car is no more than 15 sq. ft. in area (at least here in SC), a license
would not be required for a residential elevator. We chose Thyssen-Krupp as the
manufacturer as of all the elevators I've traveled in, T-Ks are the smoothest
and quietest operating. And I liked the simple engineering and design of the T-K
residential elevator systems. I even downloaded all the documentation for one of
T-Ks models, wiring diagrams and all.

However, I personally would prefer installing a commercial-style elevator, even
though it requires an operators license.

There are some that are hydraulic driven -- entirely from below.
Regardless, a silly expense (in my case) as it is just as easy
to live in a single level floor plan.

We looked at a home with an outlying building intended for "overflow
automobile storage" (i.e., 4 more bays in addition to the 3 that
were the real "garage"). But, the property was just too big and
too much maintenance (pool, spa, etc.).

While I would have enjoyed commandeering that building for my shop,
I am tickled NOT to have had to deal with all the other headaches
that a property of that sort would have entailed!

(I am getting lazy in my old age. :> )

Once (if) you get the hang of mudding and taping (untextured) drywall, it is
fairly easy. I'm not an expert at it, but as much taping and mudding as I've
done I should be.

Yes. Patience and a good eye are all you need. But, it is *terribly*
messy work!

It does look a lot nicer without all the texturing, a (properly done) sand
texture aside (haven't yet quite got the hang of sand texturing).


*HALF AN INCH?????* That's a typical layer of sheetrock!

Yes! The texture was *so* aggressive that you could actually hurt
yourself if you brushed into it (you really *could* get a grape
to fit and *stay* in any of the little nooks in the texture). The
mud used was exceedingly hard to resist crumbling (because the
texture was so "exposed")

Better him than me to clean it. Bet cats would love to climb his walls!

Ha! Never thought of that!

I suspect cleaning is impractical. I think you count on the dirt
not being recognizable as such as the recesses typically look to be
"in shadow". Shadow, dust... <shrug>

I prefer a nice smooth finish with a semi-gloss paint that presents
a wipe clean finish (No thank you to wallpaper!)