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How much diesel fuel to store (fuel tank)

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Ignoramus25850

Jan 1, 1970
0
I would like to ask for some reasoned opinions.

How much diesel fuel to store.

Right now I have a emergency 7 kW onan DJE generator and 10 gallons of
fuel, in 2 jerry cans. I can add 5 gallons easily right now as I have
another jerry can.

Based on 8 hour a day genset runtime, that would mean fuel for 9 days.

I also have a 25 gallon plastic Mueller tank. could store it in my
shed. With jerry cans, that would be 40 gallons of diesel fuel, or
enough fuel for 24 days, again based on 8 hours per day usage.

Should I bother with filling it?

Could rodents chew through that plastic tank? (I know they can if they
want to, but would they want to?)

Also, I have some diesel fuel biocide/storage concentrate that is
supposed to extend life of diesel fuel. How long would treated fuel
store, practically speaking?

i
 
R

Rifleman

Jan 1, 1970
0
We all have our own ideas on how much we should cache, I reckon as much as
you can safely afford, safely store that wont go off or become a hazard
itself, in my case my BOV is kept full at all times or concern, then I have
four jerry cans or Diesel and this week after seeing so many people run out
of gas as they left NO at a crawl using up their fuel at an alarming rate, I
have added two more 10 gallons plastic fuel drums, My only problem is that
in the UK I cant find anything like Sta-bil or similar to preserve my
stocks.
 
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Ignoramus25850

Jan 1, 1970
0
docs I read say "at least 2 years".

How much to store? That depends, the cost of the fuel is minimal (at
present), but the costs associated with storing it are not. Consider:

Cost of storage containers
Time spent rotating new/old fuel
Opportunity cost of storage space for fuel

If you had a diesel vehicle, it would be easier to justify storing
fuel, since you'd have a use for the older stock. If you had to leave
home suddenly, you could extend your vehicle's range with the stored
fuel.

You are absolutely correct. I do not have a diesel vehicle
(unfortunately). I have no useful (or useless) way to burn the fuel.

I suspect that with the proper treatment, diesel fuel can be stored
much longer than 2 years though.

i
 
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Ignoramus25850

Jan 1, 1970
0
I have 1500 gallons of veggie stored, it's a 5 month supply. It keeps
getting rotated out with daily usage and daily collection of new
material. I use 10 gallons or so daily.

That's impressive. I suppose that requirements for storage of veggie
oil are not as stringent as those for storing diesel fuel.

i
 
W

William P. N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ignoramus25850 said:
Right now I have a emergency 7 kW onan DJE generator and 10 gallons of
fuel, in 2 jerry cans. I can add 5 gallons easily right now as I have
another jerry can.

Based on 8 hour a day genset runtime, that would mean fuel for 9 days.

CheaperThanDirt.com has part number ZAA-090 which is now going for
$20. Nice can, all metal, sealed like a gas tank, definitely
airtight. Properly treated, I'd expect gasoline or diesel to last
several years in these.

[If you do buy these, note that they don't quite fit standard Nato
nozzles, and the CTD nozzles are built upside-down. OTOH, you can get
a nice funnel at your local auto parts store for a couple of bucks...]

Everyone's "worst case" is different, but I'd want to have at least a
couple of weeks, but probably not more than a month's supply on hand.
 
I

Ignoramus25850

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ignoramus25850 said:
Right now I have a emergency 7 kW onan DJE generator and 10 gallons of
fuel, in 2 jerry cans. I can add 5 gallons easily right now as I have
another jerry can.

Based on 8 hour a day genset runtime, that would mean fuel for 9 days.

CheaperThanDirt.com has part number ZAA-090 which is now going for
$20. Nice can, all metal, sealed like a gas tank, definitely
airtight. Properly treated, I'd expect gasoline or diesel to last
several years in these.

[If you do buy these, note that they don't quite fit standard Nato
nozzles, and the CTD nozzles are built upside-down. OTOH, you can get
a nice funnel at your local auto parts store for a couple of bucks...]

Everyone's "worst case" is different, but I'd want to have at least a
couple of weeks, but probably not more than a month's supply on hand.

Thanks. I am beginning to think that it will be better in the long run
to just buy maybe 3-4 more of such cans, than mess with the big
plastic 25 gallon fuel tank. If a can can actually last me 3 days,
then having 7 cans means that I can hold out for about 3 weeks while
using the generator liberally (8 hours per day).

Are these cans steel or plastic? I am not an opponent of plastic, in
fact, it may be better for this application as plastic does not rust
outdoors, and that's how I would prefer to store these cans.

i
 
D

Dale Farmer

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ignoramus25850 said:
You are absolutely correct. I do not have a diesel vehicle
(unfortunately). I have no useful (or useless) way to burn the fuel.

I suspect that with the proper treatment, diesel fuel can be stored
much longer than 2 years though.

i

If you have oil heat, diesel fuel will burn just fine in your home
furnace. My dad likes to run the tank nearly dry at home before
he orders a refill. The oil company charges a lot for off hours
delivery, he will go to the gas station, buy ten or so gallons of
diesel fuel to keep the house going till monday when he runs
it dry.

Also, for a fixed generator, you can burn off-road diesel
fuel, which is taxed at a much lower rate in the US. Something
to inquire with your fuel supplier is the cost of delivering sealed
55 gallon drums of fuel. Since they are sealed, they will have
much longer shelf life, and drum pumps are readily available.

Big problem with stored diesel is that water condenses in
the tank and then bacteria start growing. The bacterial sludge
that results will clog the hell of of your fuel system. Common
problem with national guard trucks, most of the year they sit
with full tanks, but only a little fuel being used and mostly from
the driver side tanks. Come annual training convoy, soon as
they start using the passenger side tanks they start breaking
down from clogged fuel filters.

--Dale
 
I

Ignoramus25850

Jan 1, 1970
0
If you have oil heat, diesel fuel will burn just fine in your home
furnace. My dad likes to run the tank nearly dry at home before
he orders a refill. The oil company charges a lot for off hours
delivery, he will go to the gas station, buy ten or so gallons of
diesel fuel to keep the house going till monday when he runs
it dry.

I do not have an oil furnace.
Also, for a fixed generator, you can burn off-road diesel
fuel, which is taxed at a much lower rate in the US. Something
to inquire with your fuel supplier is the cost of delivering sealed
55 gallon drums of fuel. Since they are sealed, they will have
much longer shelf life, and drum pumps are readily available.

I believe that keeping such drums would be illegal.
Big problem with stored diesel is that water condenses in
the tank and then bacteria start growing.

Hm, in case of a hermetically sealed tank such as a full jerry can,
that is not possible, right?
The bacterial sludge that results will clog the hell of of your fuel
system. Common problem with national guard trucks, most of the year
they sit with full tanks, but only a little fuel being used and
mostly from the driver side tanks. Come annual training convoy,
soon as they start using the passenger side tanks they start
breaking down from clogged fuel filters.

Sure, but these tanks have breathers...

i
 
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Ignoramus25850

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks Robert. I will store diesel fuel in airtight jerry cans.

i

This subject has come up before. Permit me to offer my own experience. I
have a few steel cans of diesel I've had for 20 years. I recently used some
in a generator. This old fuel had the same appearance when poured as new
fuel, and ran the engine without difficulty. There is no detectable
degradation. I did not add any antioxidants when I originally procured the
fuel.

I suspect this is because the cans are gasketed, and stored in a garage
where few thermal cycles occur. Consequently, there was little ingress of
oxygen into the cans. Contrast this with a vented fuel bin, subject to
diurnal variations, or even small cans that are stored outside. Inevitably,
the pressure differential will cause ingress of oxygen.

Key points: attempt sealed storage; minimize the rate and number of
temperature cycles.


--
 
B

Bruce in Alaska

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ignoramus25850 said:
I would like to ask for some reasoned opinions.

How much diesel fuel to store.

Right now I have a emergency 7 kW onan DJE generator and 10 gallons of
fuel, in 2 jerry cans. I can add 5 gallons easily right now as I have
another jerry can.

Based on 8 hour a day genset runtime, that would mean fuel for 9 days.

I also have a 25 gallon plastic Mueller tank. could store it in my
shed. With jerry cans, that would be 40 gallons of diesel fuel, or
enough fuel for 24 days, again based on 8 hours per day usage.

Should I bother with filling it?

Could rodents chew through that plastic tank? (I know they can if they
want to, but would they want to?)

Also, I have some diesel fuel biocide/storage concentrate that is
supposed to extend life of diesel fuel. How long would treated fuel
store, practically speaking?

i

I think the question you need to ask yourself is, Are you planning for
the Ultimant Disaster, or just the occasional Power Outage? Look at
the Gulf Coast and see if that senerio is one you would be likely to
try and ride out. All the Hospital, Cellsite, Telco Backup Gensets
are usually designed for 4 or 5 days of Continious Operation Fuel.
Down in the Gulf Coast, everything that wasn't under water, ran untill
the fuel ran out. Resuppling all those units hasn't been possible, due
to lack of uncontaminated fuel, and NO Delivery Infostructure due to
Roads being closed, by either water or debris. Then again, your
neighbors are all going to be asking for power and your usage will
likely be more than you figured on, and don't forget the consumables
like filters, and baseoil, that need to be changed avery 200 hours.
If you can't drive to the NAPA Store to get more filters your going
to be hurting if you don't plan ahead.
I think we all could take a lesson from the Gulf Coast, in what we
plan for in emergency Preparedness.....



Bruce in alaska
 
I

Ignoramus25850

Jan 1, 1970
0
I think the question you need to ask yourself is, Are you planning for
the Ultimant Disaster, or just the occasional Power Outage? Look at
the Gulf Coast and see if that senerio is one you would be likely to
try and ride out. All the Hospital, Cellsite, Telco Backup Gensets
are usually designed for 4 or 5 days of Continious Operation Fuel.
Down in the Gulf Coast, everything that wasn't under water, ran untill
the fuel ran out. Resuppling all those units hasn't been possible, due
to lack of uncontaminated fuel, and NO Delivery Infostructure due to
Roads being closed, by either water or debris. Then again, your
neighbors are all going to be asking for power and your usage will
likely be more than you figured on, and don't forget the consumables
like filters, and baseoil, that need to be changed avery 200 hours.
If you can't drive to the NAPA Store to get more filters your going
to be hurting if you don't plan ahead.
I think we all could take a lesson from the Gulf Coast, in what we
plan for in emergency Preparedness.....

Thanks Bruce... That makes sense 100%... I will indeed go and buy more
oil filters. I have plenty of oil itself. As far as diesel fuel goes,
I will try to locate more jerry cans soon, maybe in 2
weeks. CheaperThanDirt was out of the cans mentioned here, but the
lady said that they will get more in a couple of weeks. I will wait
until hysteria subsides a little bit.

i
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
I would like to ask for some reasoned opinions.

How much diesel fuel to store.

Right now I have a emergency 7 kW onan DJE generator and 10 gallons of
fuel, in 2 jerry cans. I can add 5 gallons easily right now as I have
another jerry can.

Based on 8 hour a day genset runtime, that would mean fuel for 9 days.

Sounds like a lot of idle time. You might consider adding an
inverter/charger and some batteries. Use the inverter as much as
possible, and only run the generator for the big loads while
recharging the batteries. 1 or 2 hours per day run time would be a lot
more comfortable than 8. Lessening the generator hours, and increasing
the generator availability on the same quantity of fuel, would
increase the odds you'd make it through an extended outage without a
failure.

Wayne
 
I

Ignoramus25850

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sounds like a lot of idle time. You might consider adding an
inverter/charger and some batteries. Use the inverter as much as
possible, and only run the generator for the big loads while
recharging the batteries. 1 or 2 hours per day run time would be a lot
more comfortable than 8. Lessening the generator hours, and increasing
the generator availability on the same quantity of fuel, would
increase the odds you'd make it through an extended outage without a
failure.

While it is true, consider costs and benefits.

Costs:

1. Price of batteries and inverter and their housing.
2. Cost of replacing batteries regularly
3. Cost of time to do all that
4. Cost of space occupied by this setup.

Benefits:
- In case of a very extended outage, some fuel savings and
generator run time savings, if the inverter system actually works at all.

This benefit is relatively marginal, since my Onan DJE generator will
outlast any possible outage. And it is already quite economical on
fuel. I expect to use less than a liter of fuel per hour.

Most likely, I will not have any outages, and the ones I may have are
overwhelmingly likely to be short. An inverter system would be an
overkill.

i
 
W

wmbjk

Jan 1, 1970
0
While it is true, consider costs and benefits.

Costs:

1. Price of batteries and inverter and their housing.

About the same cost as a second generator. (if everything's equal age
and quality)
2. Cost of replacing batteries regularly

Occasionally used but properly maintained batteries should last ten
years.
3. Cost of time to do all that

Installation of an inverter and batteries is relatively simple. With
proper preparation, figure a day. Allow an additional day to
experiment with the system, and consider that time well spent toward
*knowing* how things will function during an outage.
4. Cost of space occupied by this setup.

Figure a shelving unit, total floor space 4 sq. ft. Again, about the
same as a second generator. Or either could fit nicely under an
existing bench or whatever.
Benefits:
- In case of a very extended outage, some fuel savings and
generator run time savings, if the inverter system actually works at all.

If I can go 10 years without an outage, you shouldn't have any trouble
going 22 hours. And you've left out a major benefit - having power for
24 hours instead of 8, and perhaps being able to run your fridge
normally.
This benefit is relatively marginal, since my Onan DJE generator will
outlast any possible outage.

Why are you sure of that, but unsure of an inverter functioning?
Occasionally used generators, especially if they're old, often fail
when they're needed most (just ask the guys you bought your's from).
For that reason, those who *rely* on the availability of a generator
will have a backup. Your preparations thus far are anything but
casual. Think about how you're going to feel if after so much effort
you still end up rushing to eat all your fridge contents by
candlelight. ;-)
And it is already quite economical on
fuel. I expect to use less than a liter of fuel per hour.

Whether or not you can go 9 days on 15? gallons will depend on how
loaded the generator is. Have you run a practical test by actually
living off that generator for even 24 hours? A small miscalculation in
your planned energy use could easily add up to more than double the
fuel consumption.
Most likely, I will not have any outages, and the ones I may have are
overwhelmingly likely to be short.

Well heck, then you hardly need all that stuff. If I were planning for
an unlikely and short outage, then I'd be confident relying on my
well-worn $350 Home Depot portable and an extension cord . :)
An inverter system would be an
overkill.

Perhaps, that's your call. But in terms of a Katrina-like outage, I'd
be choosing between either 2 generators, or 1 generator and an
inverter.

Wayne
 
V

Vaughn

Jan 1, 1970
0
Benefits:
- In case of a very extended outage, some fuel savings and
generator run time savings, if the inverter system actually works at all.

This benefit is relatively marginal, since my Onan DJE generator will
outlast any possible outage. And it is already quite economical on
fuel. I expect to use less than a liter of fuel per hour.

I come down on Ig's side here. I have found inverters to be of marginal
use. I expect to use all 12-volt lights & other goodies when the generator is
off. I honestly don't have a good idea how many hours I need to run my 'fridge
per day to preserve my food, but that will probably determine run time for the
generator.

That said, few people really consider fuel costs for their standby
generators. After Katrina came across Florida (remember? we got her first) I
had a friend who lost power for about 4 days. With the new $3.00 gas, he was
spending about $50.00 per day to run minimum house loads and one small room A/C.
For a month of operation that would be a $1500 "electric bill"! Even my little
Onan (runs on NG) would run up an amazing energy bill for 24/7 operation.

Vaughn
 
W

William P. N. Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ignoramus25850 said:
William P N Smith <> wrote:
Are these cans steel or plastic? I am not an opponent of plastic, in
fact, it may be better for this application as plastic does not rust
outdoors, and that's how I would prefer to store these cans.

The cans are still steel. 8*) While I'm concerned about rust as
well, they have a pretty good coat of paint on them, and if you keep
from banging them around too much they ought to be OK. I _am_ an
opponent of plastic (gave all my plastic gas cans away), as they swell
and breathe (right thru the plastic!) and aren't much good for
long-term storage.
 
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Ignoramus25850

Jan 1, 1970
0
The cans are still steel. 8*) While I'm concerned about rust as
well, they have a pretty good coat of paint on them, and if you keep
from banging them around too much they ought to be OK. I _am_ an
opponent of plastic (gave all my plastic gas cans away), as they swell
and breathe (right thru the plastic!) and aren't much good for
long-term storage.

does this apply to military fuel cans?

By the way, CTD is out of those fuel cans, I called them today and
they confirmed that.

i
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