is there a whole-house automatic generator transfer switch?

[reality intrudes]

hello all,
we will soon have a modular delivered to our rural area and want to have a
liquid-cooled, propane, automatically kicks on, one-phase, standby electric
generator sufficient (prob ~30kw) to power the whole house without
restriction (200amp service- incl well pump; electric range; frige &
freezer; TVs; computers; geothermal heating/cooling/water heater equipment;
etc).
all the electricians the construction supervisor has contacted have all
quoted $5,000+ labor to hook up our supplied materials- supposedly to wire
the individual circuits to be powered.
isn't there a way to have an automatic switch in line after the meter and
before the house's panel- thereby bypassing the labor to install individual
circuits? if so- what brand of switch, would i need to get an even bigger
generator to avoid any overloading...
thanks in advance,
kurt

 

[William P.N. Smith]

liquid-cooled, propane, automatically kicks on, one-phase, standby electric
generator sufficient (prob ~30kw) to power the whole house without
restriction (200amp service- incl well pump; electric range; frige &
freezer; TVs; computers; geothermal heating/cooling/water heater equipment;

Dunno if the generator's big enough, (200 amps is 48KW) and yeah,
you'll need a 200A Automatic Transfer Switch. Plenty of them out
there. Google is your friend. You might want to confirm that your
ATS is compatible with your generator (or buy them both from the same
vendor) to avoid finger pointing exercises after the fact.

 

[reality intrudes]

thanks for the replies.

would this 40kW Liquid Cooled Generac Generator Model 04993
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11772&item=3840967686
be sufficient for our needs? it replaces their previous 45kW model 04373.

what would a reasonable installation expense be?
thank you,
kurt

 

[Robert Morein]

thanks for the replies.

would this 40kW Liquid Cooled Generac Generator Model 04993
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11772&item=3840967686
be sufficient for our needs? it replaces their previous 45kW model 04373.

what would a reasonable installation expense be?
thank you,
kurt

Behind Door Number One: "And what are your needs?"

 

[Bill Kaszeta / Photovoltaic Resources]

hello all,
we will soon have a modular delivered to our rural area and want to have a
liquid-cooled, propane, automatically kicks on, one-phase, standby electric
generator sufficient (prob ~30kw) to power the whole house without
restriction (200amp service- incl well pump; electric range; frige &
freezer; TVs; computers; geothermal heating/cooling/water heater equipment;
etc).
all the electricians the construction supervisor has contacted have all
quoted $5,000+ labor to hook up our supplied materials- supposedly to wire
the individual circuits to be powered.
isn't there a way to have an automatic switch in line after the meter and
before the house's panel- thereby bypassing the labor to install individual
circuits? if so- what brand of switch, would i need to get an even bigger
generator to avoid any overloading...
thanks in advance,
kurt

It all depends on the existing setup. You most likely have a combination
meter box and main panel with the output from the utility meter directly
connected to the main breaker and the main breaker is right on the
buss for the circuit breakers. An electrician needs to either change the
system to separate meter panel and main distribution panel or make
major changes in the existing panel to be able to route the cables to
and from the transfer switch. While it may be possible to make changes
in the panel, it will destroy any UL listing and present a liability for the
electrician. Of course, all the work has to be done before the circuit is
energized by the utility or arrangements need to be made to interrupt
the service for a few hours. And the work needs to be inspected.

Technically, the best approach is to change to separate meter and
main distribution panels, but existing cables may not fit (splices not
allowed in distribution panels).

The price seems a little high, but it depends on rates in the area.




Bill Kaszeta
Photovoltaic Resources Int'l
Tempe Arizona USA
[email protected]

 

[Netman]

www.asco.com

 

[reality intrudes]

It all depends on the existing setup. You most likely have a combination
meter box and main panel with the output from the utility meter directly
connected to the main breaker and the main breaker is right on the
buss for the circuit breakers. An electrician needs to either change the
system to separate meter panel and main distribution panel or make
major changes in the existing panel to be able to route the cables to
and from the transfer switch. While it may be possible to make changes
in the panel, it will destroy any UL listing and present a liability for the
electrician. Of course, all the work has to be done before the circuit is
energized by the utility or arrangements need to be made to interrupt
the service for a few hours. And the work needs to be inspected.

Technically, the best approach is to change to separate meter and
main distribution panels, but existing cables may not fit (splices not
allowed in distribution panels).

The price seems a little high, but it depends on rates in the area.
Bill Kaszeta
Photovoltaic Resources Int'l
Tempe Arizona USA
[email protected]

since it is new construction we have the ability to determine what it will
be.
for the moment there is just the previous electric wire (currently inactive)
coming out of the ground.
the modular folks will deliver the house with the panel hanging down as it
will go in the basement.
kurt

 

[William P.N. Smith]

Behind Door Number One: "And what are your needs?"

Since he started a new thread, we don't have the context from his
previous post, where he said:
/*
(200amp service- incl well pump; electric range; frige &
freezer; TVs; computers; geothermal heating/cooling/water heater
equipment;
etc).
*/

Would a 40WK generator handle a 48KW peak load? Dunno, but I'd put a
peak-recording clamp-on ammeter on both legs of the main feed for a
day or two, and try it with everything on, before I could say for
sure.

What's wrong with manual load management? Why coudn't you (for
instance) forgo the use of the electric range and the (if electric)
clothes dryer when on the generator?

Installation costs will vary. My $5K 8.2KW NG generator with ATS cost
about $5K to install, but I had some esoteric requirements (load
shedding, etc). Get quotes from the installers...

[Don't suppose you guys could trim, bottom post, and stay in thread?]

 

[reality intrudes]

(200amp service- incl well pump; electric range; frige & freezer; TVs;

computers; geothermal heating/cooling/water heater equipment; etc).

Would a 40WK generator handle a 48KW peak load? Dunno, but I'd put a

peak-recording clamp-on ammeter on both legs of the main feed for a day or
two, and try it with everything on, before I could say for sure.

What's wrong with manual load management? Why coudn't you (for instance)

forgo the use of the electric range and the (if electric) clothes dryer when
on the generator?

We need automatic switching because we are usually away from home when the
power goes off.
1) The house is up in the hills (work is down in the valley).
2) Our electric feed comes directly off the utility's main transmission
lines that cross our wooded property. No one else around is on the same
utility grid so we can't gauge if we are without if they are.
3) If it snows/ices REAL bad we can't always get into/out of the house--
but such a sweet spot to be stuck when we are.

What would the likelihood of ever reaching a 200Amp max draw in general be?
I would expect that we wouldn't do laundry, at most use the microwave (vs
range)... but i figured more info when setting the premise would be better.
I don't know what load the geothermal would require to run.
Maybe having a peak-recording ammeter permanently in line would be good to
have anyways?

Installation costs will vary. My $5K 8.2KW NG generator with ATS cost
about $5K to install, but I had some esoteric requirements (load
shedding, etc). Get quotes from the installers...

i figure we will get quotes but knowledge ahead can be invaluable- esp if
the concept of avoiding labor-intensive selection of only a few circuits to
run off the generator can be avoided by supplying the whole panel with a
larger sized generator (which i thought sounded reasonable but the
construction supervisor indicated the electrical contractors he was asking
about generator wiring weren't answering).

[Don't suppose you guys could trim, bottom post, and stay in thread?]

Sorry if i went out of protocol.
kurt

 

[William P.N. Smith]

<William P.N. Smith> wrote in message
We need automatic switching because we are usually away from home when the
power goes off.

OK, but the heavier loads are unlikely to fire up when you aren't
there, right?

What would the likelihood of ever reaching a 200Amp max draw in general be?

On a 200A service, probably pretty minimal, but you sounded like you
had some significant loads. You want to characterize them all before
you go much further. [I've got all my heavy loads on a 100A
sub-panel, and I've never tripped the breaker feeding it.]

I don't know what load the geothermal would require to run.

Look at the nameplate, check with the manufacturer, and/or measure it.

Maybe having a peak-recording ammeter permanently in line would be good to
have anyways?

You want to own one, but I'm not sure it's worth keeping inline at all
times. I got a couple of current transformers and some analog meters
for permanent readings, but the meters are in the basement, so I
hardly ever see them. For most measurements I use a clamp-on ammeter
and a Fluke peak-reading DVM.

construction supervisor indicated the electrical contractors he was asking
about generator wiring weren't answering).

It's not rocket science to hook up a generator, look for someone with
experience in commercial installations. Hospitals, for instance, have
ATSen. My electrical inspector brought his son-in-law(?) along, as
this was the only ATS he'd ever seen in a residential install, but it
was pretty straightforward.

[Don't suppose you guys could trim, bottom post, and stay in thread?]

Sorry if i went out of protocol.

Every time you change the subject line, you create a new thread, and
lose all your previous context.

 

[Bill Kaszeta / Photovoltaic Resources]

since it is new construction we have the ability to determine what it will
be.
for the moment there is just the previous electric wire (currently inactive)
coming out of the ground.
the modular folks will deliver the house with the panel hanging down as it
will go in the basement.
kurt

Then it should be simple and lower cost. Specify a meter panel
with only a main breaker and mount that outside. Run heavy
cable for 200A (3/0) to the transfer switch which you can
mount inside or outside (depending on enclosure), and onward
to the main lugs of the house panel. Specify a main-lug panel
for the house. The generator then wires into the transfer switch.
Some utilities may insist on a lockable disconnect switch by
the meter if they know a generator will be part of the system.

Bill Kaszeta
Photovoltaic Resources Int'l
Tempe Arizona USA
[email protected]

 

[reality intrudes]

unfortunately our previous house is at the landfill.
it was much cheaper to remove it and build all new than remodel/add-on.
kurt

be?
200A@240V = 48000W =
480 light bulbs (100W) (or 2086 flourescent eqiv (23W))
or
48 microwaves going full tilt (assume 1000W)
or
32 hair dryers (1500)
or
well... you get the picture.... it's *alot* of energy.

Go around and look at the amp draw on your various pieces of equipment.