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Lead Acid Battery Desulfator circuit help

roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/rohitdhamal/Desulfator4046.jpg

http://s820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/rohitdhamal/?action=view&current=Desulfator4046.jpg

Desulfator4046.jpg

all these images are one and the same. i have only given this if one or the other is broken

Hi friends this is a link to a desulfator which i have made. but it has some serious flaws while working. it isnt working. i have discussed this in many forums but not got a suitable solution.
the theme goes here.
this desulfator tune in to the resonant frequency of the sulfate crystals. it has a pll and a vco. it requires a switch and a voltage controller 7805. now can any one help me out of this situation?
The chip used here is a MM74HC4046. please dont make fun of this circuit since it would not only be used to desulphate but a modified version externally powered could be used to test chemicals. the main aim here is desulfation
 
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(*steve*)

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That link appears broken
 

(*steve*)

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What is the mystery chip on the right?

Do you have a link to a description of the supposed operation of the circuit?

What does it do?

What doesn't it do?
 

55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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this desulfator tune in to the resonant frequency of the sulfate crystals...
Someone somewhere is reading this and laughing his a## off saying "Got another one"

This is a scam and you have been had.

---55p
 

Resqueline

Jul 31, 2009
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I have to agree w 55p on this. A PLL does nothing anyway unless it has an input signal to follow and I don't see any "crystal" pickup going to the IC in the diagram.
 

roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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I have to agree w 55p on this. A PLL does nothing anyway unless it has an input signal to follow and I don't see any "crystal" pickup going to the IC in the diagram.

i had one thing in mind while making this
the sulfate crystals have a particular chemical bond frequency and they vibrate with this frequencies at all temperatures except at absolute zero. if we supply the bond energy at this frequency then the crystal is broken apart. this is some basic chemistry and it works. now the vibrational frequency of the sulfate crystals is 3.26MHz. it might be something higher or lower or exact. we dont know that. it is given in the literature. we can supply this frequency easily in the battery while charging but we know that inside; there is a lot of acid and it is quite viscous. it would absorb some of the frequency and we wont be able to supply the exact frequency to the crystals. now some of you might think this is some joke or fake. but if you need the concept of this frequency search the web for vibrational frequency of molecules. keeping this in mind i tried to design this circuit. but since i am not a electronics student infact i am a medical biotechnologist and registering for phd in it; i ont know much of the stuff in electronics but i have much interest in it..
returning to the main concept, we need to first understand that if we tune the circuit to a fixed frequency our circuit will akways be a failure because viscosity in the battery liquid changes on charge-discharge cycles and water evaporation. this affects the frequencies absorbed.only when condition comes to conditions at which we tuned our circuit then it would work, but since this is dynamic then circuit is always a failure. thats why people say desulfators are failure. but what we do is, we always tune this circuit with a PLL and VCO (from MM74HC4046 not cd4046 it works at lower frequency). then at any dynamic point it tunes itself and desulfates, rather forces the battery to full charge (we dont use it continuously but once a week for one charging cycle. we can time it for that using a timer and relay circuit).
the main problem i face is that when i made this circuit i have nothing to test but a sulfated battery. it didnt work nor did it fire. i know the circuit isntright one but an attempt can be made to make a complete new one. i need expert advice.

the reason behind this circuit was that, i see many junk battery shopkeepers throwing the acid and loosened material in the sewers. the same is done in industries. the main problem that happens is that it makes the water acidic and bacteria and algae in the water get killed. moreover this water runs into rivers or lakes and comes to our homes. we drink it and get ourself into trouble. if you dont believe me search for Lead Poisoning on the internet. you can also check pH of you drinking water, sewer water and check pH requirement of the bacteria. you guys would say bacteria cause diseases and we already kill them, but a harmful bacteria in the body is quite useful outside. salmonella produce hydrogen from glucose water. same in the body causes typhoid. so there are always two sides. we as citizens of this planet can atleast do a little contribution from our sides.may be this circuit wont work but we can make one from this concept.

i have many biological ideas needing coupling with electronics. i have all from biology, i need a helping hand in electronics.any one interested may join me.
 

55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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the sulfate crystals have a particular chemical bond frequency.... this is some basic chemistry.
My mother has low iron in her blood. By this logic, she should chew on nails to help her condition. That is basic chemistry!

The whole idea that you can physically break apart "sulfate crystals" by discharging at their "resonant frequency" is junk science. That is when I stopped looking at your circuit, even though its problems go much farther than that.

The two biggest classes of scams out there are ones involving "resonant frequency" and magnetism. Neither has any magical properties. The typical victims of these scams are individuals that have enough knowledge to pick out exciting keywords, but no enough knowledge to understand them.

Good luck wasting your time.

---55p
 

55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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the reason behind this circuit was that, i see many junk battery shopkeepers throwing the acid and loosened material in the sewers.
If you are located in any developed country, you should report these individuals to the local authorities because they are breaking several laws. Many places will even have rewards for turning them in so you can make money doing it.

If you live in a 3rd world country where this type of environmental abuse is tolerated, you have my sympathy. But laws of physics do not have sympathy or take pity. They are still valid no matter how lawless of a country you live in.

---55p
 

(*steve*)

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"de-sulphators" tend to operate by sending short high voltage pulses to the battery in question. The reasoning is that this breaks down the sulphate to some extent and restores capacity to the battery.

As long as the circuit does that, then it will do probably as much as any other device that exists on the market. I'm sure there are optimum voltages etc, but as 55p suggests, any relationship to the "resonant frequency" of sulphate is nonsense.

In any case, the resonant frequency would likely be extremely high, since we are talking about (one imagines) the resonant frequency of the bonds and the atoms inside the molecules of lead sulphate. They're really really small, so the frequency will be really really high -- you're probably talking about gigahertz or terrahertz, not kilohertz or even megahertz.
 

55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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The desulphator theory is that a very high current pulse will cause instantaneous heating in high resistance areas of the battery and the resulting expansion will cause them to physically "fall off". It is not a proven theory and its mechanisms are not known. It is pushed almost exclusively by those that have a commercial interest in selling desulphators.

It is an off-shoot of "burp charging" which is a legitimate technique used for charging NiCad and NiMh batteries. The physics are completely different and are not applicable to lead acid batteries.

The claim that the given circuit can run at 3.5MHz is bogus. Besides all the obvious voltage issues, it is driving a 1000pF gate capacitance through a 275K resistor. Just do the math on that one!

---55p
 

roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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"de-sulphators" tend to operate by sending short high voltage pulses to the battery in question. The reasoning is that this breaks down the sulphate to some extent and restores capacity to the battery.

As long as the circuit does that, then it will do probably as much as any other device that exists on the market. I'm sure there are optimum voltages etc, but as 55p suggests, any relationship to the "resonant frequency" of sulphate is nonsense.

In any case, the resonant frequency would likely be extremely high, since we are talking about (one imagines) the resonant frequency of the bonds and the atoms inside the molecules of lead sulphate. They're really really small, so the frequency will be really really high -- you're probably talking about gigahertz or terrahertz, not kilohertz or even megahertz.

no the frequencies are not in that high you think. it is because we know that we can break the bonds just by heating them or substituting them (like we do in itching of PCB's) now the energy we require can either be supplied by heating or by electricity. like we can melt table salt by heating and then break its bonds, or we can substitute the molecules with other molecule or we can do electrolysis. this seems all different that how these processes are related but the main thing is that it is all related and energy is the main parameter. this is similar to enzyme catalysed reactions in our biological systems. since i'm a researcher in biology and have knowledge in chemistry also i am trying to put a new theory combining different aspects and parameter. now if we can construct what i am thinking we can atleast experiment on it. afterall it is not costly as biological experiments. so what do you think?
 

roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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The desulphator theory is that a very high current pulse will cause instantaneous heating in high resistance areas of the battery and the resulting expansion will cause them to physically "fall off". It is not a proven theory and its mechanisms are not known. It is pushed almost exclusively by those that have a commercial interest in selling desulphators.

It is an off-shoot of "burp charging" which is a legitimate technique used for charging NiCad and NiMh batteries. The physics are completely different and are not applicable to lead acid batteries.

The claim that the given circuit can run at 3.5MHz is bogus. Besides all the obvious voltage issues, it is driving a 1000pF gate capacitance through a 275K resistor. Just do the math on that one!

---55p

so what can be a possible solution for this? what type of a math is there? i dont know much of electronics
 

55pilot

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so what can be a possible solution for this? what type of a math is there? i dont know much of electronics
I do not waste my time on a fool's errand. First it was battery desulphating, then it became biological experiments...

I will pass.

---55p
 
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(*steve*)

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so what can be a possible solution for this? what type of a math is there? i dont know much of electronics

What 55p has pointed out is an elegant explanation of why the circuit will not work.

A combination of that resistor and that capacitor cannot change value fast enough for the circuit to operate at anywhere near the frequency you suggest.

The math is r*c = 1/(2*pi*f)

or in your case f = 1/(2*pi*r*c)
= 1/(6.28*275000*0.000000001)
= 580

So the max frequency is around 600Hz.

(I've done this pretty quickly, so forgive me if I'm a order of magnitude or so off :))
 

55pilot

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Points to ponder: Why don't Governments impose penalties for breaking the laws of physics?
Because Nature handles that function. The punishment for minor violations is ridicule, embarrassment and frustration. For major offenses it is a very very long confinement 6ft underground.

---55p
 

(*steve*)

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Ah... 55p, Attempted offences and conspiracy to commit do not count!
 

roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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What 55p has pointed out is an elegant explanation of why the circuit will not work.

A combination of that resistor and that capacitor cannot change value fast enough for the circuit to operate at anywhere near the frequency you suggest.

The math is r*c = 1/(2*pi*f)

or in your case f = 1/(2*pi*r*c)
= 1/(6.28*275000*0.000000001)
= 580

So the max frequency is around 600Hz.

(I've done this pretty quickly, so forgive me if I'm a order of magnitude or so off :))

According to your given formula the r value comes to about 450r. now if the gate has 1000pf capacitance then how can we work out for our frequency?
if this circuit isnt practical is there no way of constructing the circuit with the theme i propose?
 
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(*steve*)

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At some point you have to realise that the original circuit was poorly designed and that there may be more than just this one aspect.

Given your admitted lack of experience in this area, it may be better to find a "de-sulphator" that has been designed properly and to give that a trial.

As evidence of what poor design does, I point you here. Note the effect of poor design on their research. (Also note that this isn't/wasn't research -- they were giving people experience of how research is conducted in kind of a "fun" way).

One such circuit was published in "Silicon Chip" magazine in July 2005. Note that they specifically disclaim that the circuit "works as advertised".but at least it has the advantage of being overseen by their designers who will not make the same mistakes that non-designers might.

If you are sufficiently interested you can purchase single copies of their magazines for on-line viewing. Go to http://www.siliconchip.com.au

I have my copy open here before me. It ticks a lot more boxes than most of the designs I've seen on the web.
 
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