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Lead Acid Battery Desulfator circuit help

roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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At some point you have to realise that the original circuit was poorly designed and that there may be more than just this one aspect.

Given your admitted lack of experience in this area, it may be better to find a "de-sulphator" that has been designed properly and to give that a trial.

As evidence of what poor design does, I point you here. Note the effect of poor design on their research. (Also note that this isn't/wasn't research -- they were giving people experience of how research is conducted in kind of a "fun" way).

One such circuit was published in "Silicon Chip" magazine in July 2005. Note that they specifically disclaim that the circuit "works as advertised".but at least it has the advantage of being overseen by their designers who will not make the same mistakes that non-designers might.

If you are sufficiently interested you can purchase single copies of their magazines for on-line viewing. Go to http://www.siliconchip.com.au

I have my copy open here before me. It ticks a lot more boxes than most of the designs I've seen on the web.

yes Steve I've already gone through the desulfator page. i dont have a siliconchip magazine but on thing i would like to tell you. if someone fails in developing some technology then others must work hard to develop it. the page said that they didnt have time to investigate. moreover they too used the same 555 chip. so if we have time and money we can definitely carry on. if you have some design in mind then you may help me indirectly, this way i will also develop my knowledge in electronics. if my current design is not at all going to work then i dont mind using any other ic or even a microcontroller which requires programming.
 

(*steve*)

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Check out the Silicon chip article. It also uses a 555, but has a far better arrangement for driving the mosfet and also has far better protection in place to prevent the 555 or other circuitry from being fried by the potentially high voltage pulses.

BTW, it operates at 1kHz.
 

roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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Check out the Silicon chip article. It also uses a 555, but has a far better arrangement for driving the mosfet and also has far better protection in place to prevent the 555 or other circuitry from being fried by the potentially high voltage pulses.

BTW, it operates at 1kHz.

i disapprove the use of lower frequency because it just vibrates the particles off the plate and they settle at the bottom. and they just short the cells after some days. i have a point to support this. we have sulphate in the crystals and also the acid. in this we have a sulphate ion in common. because of this the sulphate ions refuse to go the solution because it has saturated ions of sulphate (SO4). this effect is called common ion effect, and plays a major role in desulfation. if you like to experiment do this simple experiment. take 1/2 cup of water and add salt to it and stir. keep adding salt till no salt diissolve in it. now if you want to add more salt to it then you have to stir it very vigourously(desulfator does this same thing.) but after a stage this is not applicabe once you stop stirring small crystals settling at the bottom. now a main thing. add drop by drop of hydrochloric acid to it. you will get more and more undissolved salt at the bottom (charging state effect). you cannot desulfate battery while discharging sine it would harm the battery because you dont let the reactions happen normally. now i already said its all based on energy, so we could increase the charging amperes to supply more energy, but not more than c/10 which is less for bigger batteries more than 9 amp. at higher frequencies this ratio good to maintain. but at resonant or molecular vibration frequency it is unity..
 

(*steve*)

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But when there are problems with hard sulphate on the battery plates the electrolyte is no longer saturated (if it ever was).

One of the issues with hard sulphites forming on the plates is that it reduces the concentration of ions in the electrolyte.
 

55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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so we could increase the charging amperes to supply more energy, but not more than c/10 which is less for bigger batteries more than 9 amp.
Which bring us back to the point I made early on. All of this is junk science, promoted by people who have no understanding of what they are saying throwing around big words hoping to impress someone.

As you talk about increasing the charging, you are playing with circuits that only DISCHARGE the battery. As you talk about 9 amps and larger, you are running a circuit that has a 2A fuse. As you talk about running in megahertz, you are playing with circuits that have no hope of making into the kilohertz.

But I am sure you will find people who will get impressed by all pseudo-scientific techno babble...

---55p
 

roltex_rohit123

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Which bring us back to the point I made early on. All of this is junk science, promoted by people who have no understanding of what they are saying throwing around big words hoping to impress someone.

As you talk about increasing the charging, you are playing with circuits that only DISCHARGE the battery. As you talk about 9 amps and larger, you are running a circuit that has a 2A fuse. As you talk about running in megahertz, you are playing with circuits that have no hope of making into the kilohertz.

But I am sure you will find people who will get impressed by all pseudo-scientific techno babble...

---55p

I said that we could forget the current circuit and start working on a new one. the fuse may be replaced by one with higher amperage. and the circuit i'm proposing is only connected for one charging cycle and removed when charging is complete.it wont be connected to a standing battery to discharge it. i dont have to impress anyone its just my hobby and not studies or a political campaign.
 

55pilot

Feb 23, 2010
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i dont have to impress anyone its just my hobby and not studies or a political campaign.
Even hobbies need a grounding in reality. A string of technical terms strung together in a meaningless way does not qualify as a scientific basis.

---55p
 

roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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Even hobbies need a grounding in reality. A string of technical terms strung together in a meaningless way does not qualify as a scientific basis.

---55p

i meant that can you tell me the flaws in the design in a simpler ways? can we troubleshoot them? can we use different or seperate ic's for each of the section of VCO, PLL etc?
 

55pilot

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i meant that can you tell me the flaws in the design in a simpler ways? can we troubleshoot them? can we use different or seperate ic's for each of the section of VCO, PLL etc?
You seem to not get the point that the underlying concept is flawed. The issues with the circuit are irrelevant as even fixing them will not do what it is that you are hoping that it will miraculously do.

---55p
 

(*steve*)

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i meant that can you tell me the flaws in the design in a simpler ways? can we troubleshoot them? can we use different or seperate ic's for each of the section of VCO, PLL etc?

The flaws are (and there may be more)

1) the oscillator will not operate at the frequency you want it to
2) The oscillator has no means to track the magic frequency
3) The drive to the mosfet is insufficient to allow it to switch at anywhere near the frequency you want
4) the inductors a re too large for the frequency you want
5) the voltage spiked induced by the circuit will probably damage the oscillator.
6) It cannot provide current spikes the size you require

I would recommend that you create an appropriate oscillator with very rapid rise and fall times and drive a mosfet capable of switching the required currents at the requited frequency using a mosfet driver which is capable of supplying the large gate currents that may be required.

I would also recommend a separate power supply for the oscillator/driver to isolate it from voltage spikes and other variables.

You need to design appropriate size inductors and capacitors to perform at the frequency you require, noting how much energy they will have to store and the time required to store that energy before switching. This in turn will feed back to your oscillator design as the fixed mark (or space -- as appropriate) period for the oscillator.

Then you will have to determine how to get these high voltage, high current, high frequency pulses to the battery without losses or other problems caused by cable or battery capacitance or inductance issues.
 

roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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The flaws are (and there may be more)

1) the oscillator will not operate at the frequency you want it to
2) The oscillator has no means to track the magic frequency
3) The drive to the mosfet is insufficient to allow it to switch at anywhere near the frequency you want
4) the inductors a re too large for the frequency you want
5) the voltage spiked induced by the circuit will probably damage the oscillator.
6) It cannot provide current spikes the size you require

I would recommend that you create an appropriate oscillator with very rapid rise and fall times and drive a mosfet capable of switching the required currents at the requited frequency using a mosfet driver which is capable of supplying the large gate currents that may be required.

I would also recommend a separate power supply for the oscillator/driver to isolate it from voltage spikes and other variables.

You need to design appropriate size inductors and capacitors to perform at the frequency you require, noting how much energy they will have to store and the time required to store that energy before switching. This in turn will feed back to your oscillator design as the fixed mark (or space -- as appropriate) period for the oscillator.

Then you will have to determine how to get these high voltage, high current, high frequency pulses to the battery without losses or other problems caused by cable or battery capacitance or inductance issues.
ok i'l give it a try. i hope you'l help me if i go wrong somewhere and explain me some basic concepts.
 

(*steve*)

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The first step is for you to choose a frequency and an amount of energy in each pulse and come up with the required inductors and timings to achieve that.
 

roltex_rohit123

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The first step is for you to choose a frequency and an amount of energy in each pulse and come up with the required inductors and timings to achieve that.

my frequency is not fixed. it has a range from 3MHz and 4MHz. thats the main problem i face and more over i have to capture the resonating frequency from the battery. this contains many frequencies from different molecules and bonds. but we have given 3-4MHz only sulphate crystals arre in this range. the other are lead peroxide (neg plate) abt 10MHz. also a PLL. how to find out energy required? inductor for this frequency is 220mH. i have that made from 16 gauze wire. its thick and can be cooled soon. since it is thick and more wire is required as compared to thin wire. now for energy what can I do? can I use the same MM74HC4046? or i need to find something new? this ic has center freq 12MHz. the cd4046 has 2 MHz.
 

(*steve*)

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my frequency is not fixed. it has a range from 3MHz and 4MHz. thats the main problem i face and more over i have to capture the resonating frequency from the battery. this contains many frequencies from different molecules and bonds. but we have given 3-4MHz only sulphate crystals arre in this range. the other are lead peroxide (neg plate) abt 10MHz..

Let's stick to things that make reasonable sense. Pick a frequency. I know of no means that you can get a "resonating" frequency of such molecules. I doubt very much that anything to do with those molecules vibrates at such low frequencies.

also a PLL..

I can't see any reason for a PLL

how to find out energy required?.

I really don't know. You're the one talking about resonant frequencies and power, not me.

inductor for this frequency is 220mH..

It's highly unlikely that an inductor of that size will be able to do a great deal for you at the frequencies you're talking about. The reactance is over 4 Meg at 3 MHz

i have that made from 16 gauze wire. its thick and can be cooled soon. since it is thick and more wire is required as compared to thin wire. now for energy what can I do? can I use the same MM74HC4046? or i need to find something new? this ic has center freq 12MHz. the cd4046 has 2 MHz.

None of that makes much sense to me at all I'm afraid. A 220mH inductor made from 16 gauge wire must be about the size of a 44 gallon drum!
 

roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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(*steve*); None of that makes much sense to me at all I'm afraid. A 220mH inductor made from 16 gauge wire must be about the size of a 44 gallon drum![/QUOTE said:
i'm sorry it's uH.. my mistake. thanks for correcting me.
can we use a short wave radio circuit for our purpose? it has a range of 1.71Mhz - 30 MHz.
the working of a radio is also like the circuit i propose.
 
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(*steve*)

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Even 220 uH is still way too high. At 3MHz it will have a reactance of 4k which is still at least 3 orders of magnitude too high.

I expect 220 nH would be closer, but even that is probably too high.

How do you know its impedance is 220uH? How many turns is it, and on what former? What current will it saturate at?
 

roltex_rohit123

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Even 220 uH is still way too high. At 3MHz it will have a reactance of 4k which is still at least 3 orders of magnitude too high.

I expect 220 nH would be closer, but even that is probably too high.

How do you know its impedance is 220uH? How many turns is it, and on what former? What current will it saturate at?

had the diameter of the coil fixed. then i searched the web for calculator and the wire. it may be less than 100uh (i refer'd to my calculation data its 100uh not 220 sorry again) and the coil is air cored. so the chances of saturation may be low as compared to ferrite core. i calculated the // RLC circuit to resonate at 3.5 MHz.with those 10pf capacitor and 275K, since the coil is large it would have energy stored in it ( i am not expert so make bad assumptions). there is a recovery diode given 1N4937.

<a href="http://s820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/rohitdhamal/?action=view&current=Desulfator4046.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/rohitdhamal/Desulfator4046.jpg" border="0" alt="Desulfator"></a>

http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/rohitdhamal/Desulfator4046.jpg

Desulfator4046.jpg

all these are same but i dont know which one works
 
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roltex_rohit123

Oct 12, 2009
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could you suggest me any better ic for this? what could be the ideal inductor and capacitor combination for the LC circuit?
 

(*steve*)

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Yeah, sure. What frequency do you want?

The LC combination has to be such that it can store enough energy in the period that the oscillator is in one state so that it can dump that energy as a high voltage pulse during the oscillator's other state.

So, as well as the frequency, to determine the appropriate L and C you need to have some idea of the amount of energy you wish to deliver back to the battery in each pulse.

If you look at the detailed descriptions of how these circuits operate, you'll see what I mean. I believe I pointed you to an article in "Silicon Chip" magazine which describes how the circuit operates (not what it does inside the battery however).
 

roltex_rohit123

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Yeah, sure. What frequency do you want?

The LC combination has to be such that it can store enough energy in the period that the oscillator is in one state so that it can dump that energy as a high voltage pulse during the oscillator's other state.

So, as well as the frequency, to determine the appropriate L and C you need to have some idea of the amount of energy you wish to deliver back to the battery in each pulse.

If you look at the detailed descriptions of how these circuits operate, you'll see what I mean. I believe I pointed you to an article in "Silicon Chip" magazine which describes how the circuit operates (not what it does inside the battery however).

the frequency is not fixed. thats what the main problem is. the energy also we'l have to experiment. but one thing i would like to tell you.. at this tuned frequency energy requirement would be minimum. but at lower frequencies we need more energy. the silicon chip magazine is not available to me. could you send the article to me? also one thing we will have to see is the coil. it must not resonate more than 3.5MHz. and we have to give offset and range to the ic so that it doesnt kill other molecules. my frequency range is from 3.0-3.5MHz
 
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