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Need "constant voltage-drop device"

Is there any kind of 2-terminal device, circuit, or "black box"
commercially available that will automatically maintain a constant
voltage drop between a DC power source and its Load over a very wide
range of supply voltages and load resistances??

For my application, I would need something that maintains a voltage
drop of, say, 100 volts while the power supply output fluctuates from
about 150 volts to 1000 volts, and the load current varies from 1 amp
to 20 amps --- sort of a "super-zener-diode."

Actually, a 100 volt, 20 amp zener diode would be ideal, but as far as
I know, there ain't no such animal.

Suggestions, anyone? TIA, john w.
 
R

Rich Grise, but drunk

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is there any kind of 2-terminal device, circuit, or "black box"
commercially available that will automatically maintain a constant
voltage drop between a DC power source and its Load over a very wide
range of supply voltages and load resistances??

For my application, I would need something that maintains a voltage
drop of, say, 100 volts while the power supply output fluctuates from
about 150 volts to 1000 volts, and the load current varies from 1 amp
to 20 amps --- sort of a "super-zener-diode."

Actually, a 100 volt, 20 amp zener diode would be ideal, but as far as
I know, there ain't no such animal.

Suggestions, anyone? TIA, john w.

http://folk.ntnu.no/shane/stasj/pics/humor/div/128.html

Try "voltage regulator".

Or maybe even "Zener diode".

Good Luck!
Rich
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PE Y+ PGP- t 5+++)-; X- R- tv+ b+ DI++++>+ D-? G e+$ h+ r-- z+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
 
Is there any kind of 2-terminal device, circuit, or "black box"
commercially available that will automatically maintain a constant
voltage drop between a DC power source and its Load over a very wide
range of supply voltages and load resistances??

For my application, I would need something that maintains a voltage
drop of, say, 100 volts while the power supply output fluctuates from
about 150 volts to 1000 volts, and the load current varies from 1 amp
to 20 amps --- sort of a "super-zener-diode."

Actually, a 100 volt, 20 amp zener diode would be ideal, but as far as
I know, there ain't no such animal.

Suggestions, anyone? TIA, john w.

power transistor with a reversed zener in the emitter lead, resistor
from collector to base, resistor from base to anode of diode. Collector
and emitter are your 2 terminals.
 
T

Terry Given

Jan 1, 1970
0
Is there any kind of 2-terminal device, circuit, or "black box"
commercially available that will automatically maintain a constant
voltage drop between a DC power source and its Load over a very wide
range of supply voltages and load resistances??

For my application, I would need something that maintains a voltage
drop of, say, 100 volts while the power supply output fluctuates from
about 150 volts to 1000 volts, and the load current varies from 1 amp
to 20 amps --- sort of a "super-zener-diode."

Actually, a 100 volt, 20 amp zener diode would be ideal, but as far as
I know, there ain't no such animal.

Suggestions, anyone? TIA, john w.

make an "active zener" - I would use a 100A~300A, 1200V IGBT with a
suitable zener from C to G, and some gate impedance too (say
10k//100n//12V zener). Voila, a giant zener that can dissipate (with a
large heatsink) you 2kW. BTDT for a 300A 750Vdc dynamic brake (in which
case the DB resistor was in series with the IGBT collector).

you might want to use a resistor too, and greatly reduce the heatsink
size (by letting the resistor get effing hot):

K-----+----------------+
| |
__/ [R] R = 90V/20A = 4R7 or so, rated 2kW
90V /\ |
| |
| / c
+----+-----+---||
| | | \ e
__/ [10k] [100n] |
12V /\ | | |
| | | |
A-----+----+-----+-----+

Cheers
Terry
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich Grise, but drunk wrote...
http://folk.ntnu.no/shane/stasj/pics/humor/div/128.html
Try "voltage regulator". Or maybe even "Zener diode".

This sounds like another good ASCII-schematic opportunity. But before
we get started, perhaps John W could regale us with details about his
application. It's not everyday that you find someone willing to burn
up 2000 watts of power, even if 20kW is available. John, we hope you're
ready to take part in the engineering conversation. TVS "super zeners"
are easy to get and use (individual standard 5kW parts will drop 100V
and 20A for 2ms without trouble, series stacks will do much better).
Active zener diodes are easy to make with modern power MOSFETs.

But we have questions, like, what's the expected duty cycle for your
super-zener, and how long? What's your accuracy spec, is 5 to 10% OK?
How about 1%? Are there transient-response issues we should consider?
 
OK, sure. I will try to explain the background of the problem:

The application is that we own a very good quality (and VERY expensive)
30 KW regulated power supply that was designed to put out anywhere from
~150 VDC to 1500 VDC at up to 20 amps. And it works OK within its
design range, but occasionally we need outputs as low as 50 VDC, and
the supply becomes unstable at those very low settings. (And we can't
afford to just go out and buy another supply.)

So, I thought that I might be able to "trick" the supply into thinking
that it is working into a 150 volt load while actually applying only 50
to the load. (And, by the way: The load is an ionized gas plasma, and
its impedance can vary rapidly over a wide range.)

Duty cycle would be "continuous" i.e. several hours at a time. Accuracy
is not super-important; 5% would be fine, and even 10% might work.

'Transient-response' is an interesting question! The existing power
supply has a lot of very complicated (and proprietary) circuitry built
into it to maintain constant output voltage even while the load
impedance is changing abruptly. I'm not sure, but I think that it also
has circuitry to momentarily turn the output voltage OFF for a few
microseconds if the load impedance goes below some critical threshhold
(i.e. if a localized, intense arc forms in the plasma.) I suspect
that an 'active' voltage dropping device with a finite response-time
might confuse the control circuitry quite a bit, but I'm not sure. At
the present time, we are using resistor banks for the voltage-dropping,
but this is not really satisfactory because the current can vary so
much, depending on the gas pressure & composition.

Hope this helps to clarify the problem.
 
L

linnix

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, sure. I will try to explain the background of the problem:

The application is that we own a very good quality (and VERY expensive)
30 KW regulated power supply that was designed to put out anywhere from
~150 VDC to 1500 VDC at up to 20 amps. And it works OK within its
design range, but occasionally we need outputs as low as 50 VDC, and
the supply becomes unstable at those very low settings. (And we can't
afford to just go out and buy another supply.)

So, I thought that I might be able to "trick" the supply into thinking
that it is working into a 150 volt load while actually applying only 50
to the load. (And, by the way: The load is an ionized gas plasma, and
its impedance can vary rapidly over a wide range.)

Duty cycle would be "continuous" i.e. several hours at a time. Accuracy
is not super-important; 5% would be fine, and even 10% might work.

'Transient-response' is an interesting question! The existing power
supply has a lot of very complicated (and proprietary) circuitry built
into it to maintain constant output voltage even while the load
impedance is changing abruptly. I'm not sure, but I think that it also
has circuitry to momentarily turn the output voltage OFF for a few
microseconds if the load impedance goes below some critical threshhold
(i.e. if a localized, intense arc forms in the plasma.) I suspect
that an 'active' voltage dropping device with a finite response-time

You are describing a basic switching regulation circuit. You just
need a similiar one at the second stage. However, 20A would be tricky
to build with solid state. Google for mechanical switching
regulators, for example.
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
OK, sure. I will try to explain the background of the problem:

The application is that we own a very good quality (and VERY expensive)
30 KW regulated power supply that was designed to put out anywhere from
~150 VDC to 1500 VDC at up to 20 amps. And it works OK within its
design range, but occasionally we need outputs as low as 50 VDC, and
the supply becomes unstable at those very low settings. (And we can't
afford to just go out and buy another supply.)

So, I thought that I might be able to "trick" the supply into thinking
that it is working into a 150 volt load while actually applying only 50
to the load. (And, by the way: The load is an ionized gas plasma, and
its impedance can vary rapidly over a wide range.)

Duty cycle would be "continuous" i.e. several hours at a time. Accuracy
is not super-important; 5% would be fine, and even 10% might work.

'Transient-response' is an interesting question! The existing power
supply has a lot of very complicated (and proprietary) circuitry built
into it to maintain constant output voltage even while the load
impedance is changing abruptly. I'm not sure, but I think that it also
has circuitry to momentarily turn the output voltage OFF for a few
microseconds if the load impedance goes below some critical threshhold
(i.e. if a localized, intense arc forms in the plasma.) I suspect
that an 'active' voltage dropping device with a finite response-time
might confuse the control circuitry quite a bit, but I'm not sure. At
the present time, we are using resistor banks for the voltage-dropping,
but this is not really satisfactory because the current can vary so
much, depending on the gas pressure & composition.

Hope this helps to clarify the problem.

A long time ago I saw a circuit for a wide range, high power DC supply. It
consisted of a preregulator, which was a phase-fired SCR rectifier, to
provide a raw voltage to the input of a second linear regulator, which would
control the output essentially to zero. The duty cycle of the pre-regulator
was set by the difference between the input and output of the second
regulator. Your application would require a rather hefty linear section,
with 20 amps at 100 V drop, but 2000 watts is not unworkable. This should
work OK as long as the main supply will not create voltage surges high
enough to damage the components of the second regulator. Large capacitors
should be able to sustain rapid load impedance changes, as long as there is
no need to change the supply voltage rapidly.

A more efficient approach might be to use a switching power supply with a
150 VDC output (maybe several in series), and wire it in reverse, to
subtract its voltage from the output. You may need to use large output
capacitors on this supply to handle surges, and probably a big series diode
on the output of your main supply to block reverse current.

A resistive load across the output may also help to stabilize the supply at
lower voltage levels. It is probably a PWM system that gets down to very low
duty cycle when running at its lower limit, and an extra load will increase
the duty cycle to a more stable condition.

Paul E. Schoen
www.pstech-inc.com
 
Thanks very much to everybody who offered constructive suggestions.

I have ordered some parts to try out the IGBT circuit suggested by
Terry Given. If that doesn't work, I will look into Paul Schoen's
suggestions. I suppose I could just as well use a stack of car
batteries rather than a stack of switching power supplies, Right? (We
happen to already have about 10 car batteries sitting around here, left
over from another project.)

john w.
 
T

Terry Given

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks very much to everybody who offered constructive suggestions.

I have ordered some parts to try out the IGBT circuit suggested by
Terry Given. If that doesn't work, I will look into Paul Schoen's
suggestions. I suppose I could just as well use a stack of car
batteries rather than a stack of switching power supplies, Right? (We
happen to already have about 10 car batteries sitting around here, left
over from another project.)

john w.

Hi John,

email me, and I will send you a schematic of an actual dynamic brake.

Cheers
Terry
 
W

Walter Harley

Jan 1, 1970
0
Thanks very much to everybody who offered constructive suggestions.

I have ordered some parts to try out the IGBT circuit suggested by
Terry Given. If that doesn't work, I will look into Paul Schoen's
suggestions. I suppose I could just as well use a stack of car
batteries rather than a stack of switching power supplies, Right? (We
happen to already have about 10 car batteries sitting around here, left
over from another project.)

Yeah. But don't forget the reverse-current protection on your supply.

I don't know what the inductance of a car battery is. I guess it's probably
pretty low.
 
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