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Need to cut through the BS on Alarm monitoring costs

B

blueman

Jan 1, 1970
0
doug said:
Not really

I understand completely. Reverse engineering a protocol and simulating
it in Perl would be way beyond your pay grade :p
 
B

blueman

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Macy said:
Well, the 'uneducated' installers at my alarm company are taught to
twist and solder. Unfortunately, the ones that did my installation were
lazy and "forgot" to even solder about half the connections -- they were
just twisted. So by going back and soldering the joints, all I did was
bring the installation up to the level that the installers are supposed
to do according to their training.

Unless you are in some type of hostile environment (outdoors, near the
sea, chemical exposure), a good mechanical + solder connection should
last pretty much indefinitely. How do you think components are connected
inside the panel? I have made solder joints 40+ years ago that are still
good. If your joints are twisted, soldered, and taped in a 'normal'
environment and still failing I call either "bullshit" or that you are
not as good at soldering as you think. Perhaps you have some cold solder
joints? In 40 years of doing electronics, I have never seen a properly
done solder joint fail by itself (of course enough mechanical twisting
will break the joint but the wire itself would typical break even
ealier). Also, in my experience, CRIMP connections are at least as
likely to fail since a lot of people don't do a good job crimping -
either too much or too little crimping force or they don't insert the
wires properly. Also, a solder joint is both a mechanical and a
chemical/welded connection, so it is theoretically electrically superior
to a crimp connection.
...snip...

I was further told to NOT solder a crimped connection, because it
undoes the 'goodness' of the connection. Seems the heat eases the
spring forces undoing the advantages of a spring loaded connection.
Telephone companies, do NOT solder ther land wires for same reason.
always spring forces and crimps. I always thought that was done
because the lack of AC power in the field to make a good solder
connection forced them to rely on these crimp connection, a 'lesser'
quality connection [in my mind only].

That makes reasonable sense though it is probably hard to generalize
given the variety of non-soldered connection mechanisms out there.

HOWEVER, in my case there was no 'crimp' conector, just twisted
wires. Hence cleaning the twisted wires with flux and adding solder is a
good solution IMHO.
Yes, I'm aware of solder inside electronic systems. I used to design
autopilots [somewhat of a major reliability requirement] and telecom
systems that MUST have 50,000 hours MTBF! Armed with those
experiences *and* a university degree I didn't listen to EXPERIENCED
installers. I KNEW better. W R O N G ! Again, my PERFECT soldered
connections false alarmed in 1 year external and 10 years internal.
Going around re-soldering, they all held again for about the same
amount of time.

For a connection to fail in a security system it only needs to open
for microseconds, then reconnect for another month. Most people
wouldn't even notice that happening inside their CD player, TV, etc.
And, THAT'S exactly what those solder connections did. False alarm,
hold several months, false alarm, hold month, false alarm, until got
down to every week, then re-solder to fix...and last for another 10
years.

"Connections" on a computer circuit board open for fractions of a
nanosecond and still work. They are also subject to repeated
heating/cooling cycles that are more extreme than a typical single alarm
wire. Also, the vibrations (particularly if there is a fan or hard drive
nearby) are much worse.... yet the solder joint remains supreme...
 
B

blueman

Jan 1, 1970
0
tourman said:
...snip...






Well, the 'uneducated' installers at my alarm company are taught to
twist and solder. Unfortunately, the ones that did my installation were
lazy and "forgot" to even solder about half the connections -- they were
just twisted. So by going back and soldering the joints, all I did was
bring the installation up to the level that the installers are supposed
to do according to their training.
Unless you are in some type of hostile environment (outdoors, near the
sea, chemical exposure), a good mechanical + solder connection should
last pretty much indefinitely. How do you think components are connected
inside the panel? I have made solder joints 40+ years ago that are still
good. If your joints are twisted, soldered, and taped in a 'normal'
environment and still failing I call either "bullshit" or that you are
not as good at soldering as you think. Perhaps you have some cold solder
joints? In 40 years of doing electronics, I have never seen a properly
done solder joint fail by itself (of course enough mechanical twisting
will break the joint but the wire itself would typical break even
ealier). Also, in my experience, CRIMP connections are at least as
likely to fail since a lot of people don't do a good job crimping -
either too much or too little crimping force or they don't insert the
wires properly. Also, a solder joint is both a mechanical and a
chemical/welded connection, so it is theoretically electrically superior
to a crimp connection.

...snip...

I was further told to NOT solder a crimped connection, because it
undoes the 'goodness' of the connection.  Seems the heat eases the
spring forces undoing the advantages of a spring loaded connection.
Telephone companies, do NOT solder ther land wires for same reason.
always spring forces and crimps.  I always thought that was done
because the lack of AC power in the field to make a good solder
connection forced them to rely on these crimp connection, a 'lesser'
quality connection [in my mind only].

Yes, I'm aware of solder inside electronic systems. I used to design
autopilots [somewhat of a major reliability requirement] and telecom
systems that MUST have 50,000 hours MTBF!  Armed with those
experiences *and* a university degree I didn't listen to EXPERIENCED
installers. I KNEW better. W R O N G !  Again, my PERFECT soldered
connections false alarmed in 1 year external and 10 years internal.
Going around re-soldering, they all held again for about the same
amount of time.

For a connection to fail in a security system it only needs to open
for microseconds, then reconnect for another month.  Most people
wouldn't even notice that happening inside their CD player, TV, etc.
And, THAT'S exactly what those solder connections did. False alarm,
hold several months, false alarm, hold month, false alarm, until got
down to every week, then re-solder to fix...and last for another 10
years.

RHC: Soldering connections in any professional alarm installation is
something I, nor anyone else I know in the business, does as a matter
of course. I have installed 1000's of alarms using the industry
standard "B" connectors and in a decade and a half, I have never had
ANY problems with this kind of connection on an alarm system. The
biggest danger is nicking the wire when stripping the insulation off;
this will cause problems that may not show up for awhile. I have a
lucky pair of cutters, that are just now dull enough to ensure I don't
ever do that. I have told my son, if and when I lose this favourite
pair of strippers, I will retire on the spot...:))

A far bigger problem is amateur installers who twist the wire
together, then put a piece of the insulation back over the connection.
With crimp style B connectors costing about $18 for a thousand, what
kind of untrained, cheapsh*t idiot does that. To answer my own
question, far too many....

Interesting -- the comany that did my installion is by far the biggest
company in my home state of Massachusetts. They have 20,000 plus
customers. They are considered the "cadillac" of alarm companies and
saturate all the upscale neighborhoods.

Yet their installations use solder connections... go figure.
All connections (except at the panel) are twisted, soldered, and wrapped
in white electrical tape... They believe (rightly or wrongly) that it is
the mark of a high quality installation.

Personally, I would agree that crimp connections are certainly faster
and most likely as reliable as solder if done correctly. Solder
connections also are harder to do and take more skill. Hence since time
is money and the average installer has barely a high school degree and
some minimal technical training, it makes sense to use some type of
connector.
 
B

blueman

Jan 1, 1970
0
tourman said:
RHC: Sir, it has nothing to do with anyone's level of education.

I agree it's not about degrees. It's about training - teaching good
soldering skills and maintaining good QC is harder than teaching
crimping. I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear.
You seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder relative to the
people in our trade.

I didn't have the slightest chip on my shoulder until I started getting
attacked for asking honest questions about a real situation. If people
are going to lie about me, call me names, slander/disparage all low cost
providers then yeah I will naturally develop a small chip on my shoulder
against such installers that thus reflect poorly on your vaunted industry.

In particular, I have something against the people on here who
(a) Accused me of lying about having the RemoteLink program
(b) Accused me of being a 'troll' for asking an innocent and relevant
question regarding the pros/cons and pricing of local vs. national
monitoring services
(c) Assumed I couldn't possibly be capable of the basic vocational
school level of electrical wiring and panel programming, let alone
be able to reverse engineer and emulate the DMP protocols
(d))Cast apsersions on national monitoring companies based on 'scare'
stories and anecdotes
(e) Took a general condescending attitude towards anybody not in the
brotherhood of alarm installers
(f) Made wildly ridiculous and provably false claims about the number of
posts I have made (hey what's more than 4 orders of magnitue between
friends)

I have no issue with
(a) People like you who have been balanced and helpful (other than your
ridiculous claim about the number of posts)

(b) Companies that charge however much they want to charge provided they
don't make false claims disparaging low costproviders and are honest
that they are charging up to 400-500% more than monitoring companies
primarily because they can get away with it since the average
customer either lacks the skills to take care of his system or is
too lazy to price compare. Hey, I support capitalism. average
person without technical skills may have no other choice. Several
responders were exactly so honest and I respect them for their
ability to extract premium pricing for what is basically a commodity
service.
It is a simple matter of the fact that approved B crimp
connectors are widely in use in the industry and 100% reliable as long
as the wires are never nicked in the process.

I never disagreed with that. Why are you finding arguments where none
exist?

I don't know anything about this company you speak of;

The company's name is American Alarm. Look it up. Give them a call. They
are the largest and most premium provider in Massachusetts.
however, if in fact they are soldering every connection, they are
widely wasting their time for little or no benefit. Plus in some of
the areas where we typically have to work, a hot soldering iron would
be a fire hazard in the extreme. Why would any company risk setting a
fire for no real gain. It sounds to me as if the management of this
company are stuck somewhere in the 1960's....

I don't disagree. I was just citing their justification for
soldering. And by soldering the 'wrapped' connections I was merely
bringing it up to "their" quoted standards.
PS: Speaking for myself, I hold two university degrees.
Good for you. I have far more degrees than that, though I would be the
first to admit that degrees don't necessarily mean anything :p
installers I know are not necessarily college educated, but I submit
to you, this has no bearing on their attitude to work, or much of
anything else for that matter. Success in business has more to do with
basic, old world attitudes towards honest and hard work than to any
specific level of education. I have at one time, run a business worth
over $600 million a year, but this does not make me a good installer,
or for that matter, a good independant businessman either.

I couldn't agree more and congratulations on running such a large
business.
I suggest, if you wish to be taken seriously here, a change in basic
attitude might help.....

Pot-kettle. Look back on the thread. See who started the name calling
and disparaging comments first. My original thread simply laid out the
facts and the near-verbatum arguments I heard from both my current
company and a national monitoring company. I was careful not even to
mention company names.

Indeed, I have been far more polite than your so-called "professional"
colleagues in this newsgroup.

The sad thing is that you seemed to be one of the "good guys" until you
started piling on to the "troll" slander.
 
B

blueman

Jan 1, 1970
0
tourman said:
RHC: Sir, it has nothing to do with anyone's level of education.

I agree it's not about degrees. It's about training - teaching good
soldering skills and maintaining good QC is harder than teaching
crimping. I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear.
You seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder relative to the
people in our trade.

I didn't have the slightest chip on my shoulder until I started getting
attacked for asking honest questions about a real situation. If people
are going to lie about me, call me names, slander/disparage all low cost
providers then yeah I will naturally develop a small chip on my shoulder
against such installers that thus reflect poorly on your vaunted industry.

In particular, I have something against the people on here who
(a) Accused me of lying about having the RemoteLink program
(b) Accused me of being a 'troll' for asking an innocent and relevant
question regarding the pros/cons and pricing of local vs. national
monitoring services
(c) Assumed I couldn't possibly be capable of the basic vocational
school level of electrical wiring and panel programming, let alone
be able to reverse engineer and emulate the DMP protocols
(d))Cast apsersions on national monitoring companies based on 'scare'
stories and anecdotes
(e) Took a general condescending attitude towards anybody not in the
brotherhood of alarm installers
(f) Made wildly ridiculous and provably false claims about the number of
posts I have made (hey what's more than 4 orders of magnitue between
friends)

I have no issue with
(a) People like you who have been balanced and helpful (other than your
ridiculous claim about the number of posts)

(b) Companies that charge however much they want to charge provided they
don't make false claims disparaging low costproviders and are honest
that they are charging up to 400-500% more than monitoring companies
primarily because they can get away with it since the average
customer either lacks the skills to take care of his system or is
too lazy to price compare. Hey, I support capitalism. average
person without technical skills may have no other choice. Several
responders were exactly so honest and I respect them for their
ability to extract premium pricing for what is basically a commodity
service.
It is a simple matter of the fact that approved B crimp
connectors are widely in use in the industry and 100% reliable as long
as the wires are never nicked in the process.

I never disagreed with that. Why are you finding arguments where none
exist?

I don't know anything about this company you speak of;

The company's name is American Alarm. Look it up. Give them a call. They
are the largest and most premium provider in Massachusetts.
however, if in fact they are soldering every connection, they are
widely wasting their time for little or no benefit. Plus in some of
the areas where we typically have to work, a hot soldering iron would
be a fire hazard in the extreme. Why would any company risk setting a
fire for no real gain. It sounds to me as if the management of this
company are stuck somewhere in the 1960's....

I don't disagree. I was just citing their justification for
soldering. And by soldering the 'wrapped' connections I was merely
bringing it up to "their" quoted standards.
PS: Speaking for myself, I hold two university degrees.
Good for you. I have far more degrees than that, though I would be the
first to admit that degrees don't necessarily mean anything :p
installers I know are not necessarily college educated, but I submit
to you, this has no bearing on their attitude to work, or much of
anything else for that matter. Success in business has more to do with
basic, old world attitudes towards honest and hard work than to any
specific level of education. I have at one time, run a business worth
over $600 million a year, but this does not make me a good installer,
or for that matter, a good independant businessman either.

I couldn't agree more and congratulations on running such a large
business.
I suggest, if you wish to be taken seriously here, a change in basic
attitude might help.....

Pot-kettle. Look back on the thread. See who started the name calling
and disparaging comments first. My original thread simply laid out the
facts and the near-verbatum arguments I heard from both my current
company and a national monitoring company. I was careful not even to
mention company names.

Indeed, I have been far more polite than your so-called "professional"
colleagues in this newsgroup.

The sad thing is that you seemed to be one of the "good guys" until you
started piling on to the "troll" slander.
 
B

blueman

Jan 1, 1970
0
tourman said:
RHC: Click on your profile "blueman" in one of your posts....I'm no
internet expert but what's with the "900,000 plus posts

LMFAO -- I seriously almost choked laughing.
You are definitely no Internet expert....

You do know that the Google profile link just searches on the email
address???

You did notice that I use a common GENERIC nonsense email address
"[email protected]"????

You did bother checking of course that thousands of other posters use
that same address to signal they don't want to be spammed???

So, yeah you just discovered that there are thousands of other posters
who use that same nonsense email address.

I hope that you are better at programming alarms and internet monitoring
than you are at basic Google Internet searching... :) (smiley for the
humor-impaired)

If you are so fascinated by me that you want to count and find all my
posts, you could put the following in the Google Groups search window:
"+author:blueman +author:<[email protected]>"
This yields a grand total of 490 threads containing a post from me going
back to 2003. Actually, it overestimates, since it includes
a number of posts that are by someone else with the same id.

Many of the windbags on this group probably post more than that volume
just to this newsgroup every month :)

FYI searching similarly on your name:
"+author:tourman +author:<[email protected]>"
yields 982 threads containing your posts back to 2006.

So I suppose by your logic, you would be almost exactly twice as
troll-ish as I am in far fewer years of posting :))

The point is lets try to have a mature and professional
conversation. Enough of the name calling. Enough of the disparaging
comments, especially when they showcase your own technical incompetence.

None of these behaviors reflect well on the professionalism of your
industry. If these behaviors are representative of the manners and
service attitude of local installers, then it's hard to imagine I could
do worse by going with a national company.

Maybe the signal-to-noise ratio in this group would improve if you all
spent less time trying to find phantom ghosts and trolls and if you all
toned down the paranoid thinking that every new poster is the second
coming of some guy you once had a lame USENET pissing contest with.

No need to apologize... let's just end this silliness here...
 
D

doug

Jan 1, 1970
0
blueman said:
I understand completely. Reverse engineering a protocol and simulating
it in Perl would be way beyond your pay grade :p


Reverse engineering a protocol, may or may not be beyond my pay grade,
however I'm fairly confident that having no interest in seeing code, screen
shots, pdfs or anything else on your computer is not beyond my pay grade.


Doug
 
B

Bob La Londe

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Macy said:
...snip...
Well, the 'uneducated' installers at my alarm company are taught
to
twist and solder. Unfortunately, the ones that did my installation
were
lazy and "forgot" to even solder about half the connections --
they were
just twisted. So by going back and soldering the joints, all I did
was
bring the installation up to the level that the installers are
supposed
to do according to their training.
Unless you are in some type of hostile environment (outdoors, near
the
sea, chemical exposure), a good mechanical + solder connection
should
last pretty much indefinitely. How do you think components are
connected
inside the panel? I have made solder joints 40+ years ago that are
still
good. If your joints are twisted, soldered, and taped in a
'normal'
environment and still failing I call either "bullshit" or that you
are
not as good at soldering as you think. Perhaps you have some cold
solder
joints? In 40 years of doing electronics, I have never seen a
properly
done solder joint fail by itself (of course enough mechanical
twisting
will break the joint but the wire itself would typical break even
ealier). Also, in my experience, CRIMP connections are at least as
likely to fail since a lot of people don't do a good job
crimping -
either too much or too little crimping force or they don't insert
the
wires properly. Also, a solder joint is both a mechanical and a
chemical/welded connection, so it is theoretically electrically
superior
to a crimp connection.
...snip...

I was further told to NOT solder a crimped connection, because it
undoes the 'goodness' of the connection. Seems the heat eases the
spring forces undoing the advantages of a spring loaded connection.
Telephone companies, do NOT solder ther land wires for same reason.
always spring forces and crimps. I always thought that was done
because the lack of AC power in the field to make a good solder
connection forced them to rely on these crimp connection, a 'lesser'
quality connection [in my mind only].
Yes, I'm aware of solder inside electronic systems. I used to design
autopilots [somewhat of a major reliability requirement] and telecom
systems that MUST have 50,000 hours MTBF! Armed with those
experiences *and* a university degree I didn't listen to EXPERIENCED
installers. I KNEW better. W R O N G ! Again, my PERFECT soldered
connections false alarmed in 1 year external and 10 years internal.
Going around re-soldering, they all held again for about the same
amount of time.
For a connection to fail in a security system it only needs to open
for microseconds, then reconnect for another month. Most people
wouldn't even notice that happening inside their CD player, TV, etc.
And, THAT'S exactly what those solder connections did. False alarm,
hold several months, false alarm, hold month, false alarm, until got
down to every week, then re-solder to fix...and last for another 10
years.
RHC: Soldering connections in any professional alarm installation is
something I, nor anyone else I know in the business, does as a matter
of course. I have installed 1000's of alarms using the industry
standard "B" connectors and in a decade and a half, I have never had
ANY problems with this kind of connection on an alarm system. The
biggest danger is nicking the wire when stripping the insulation off;
this will cause problems that may not show up for awhile. I have a
lucky pair of cutters, that are just now dull enough to ensure I
don't
ever do that. I have told my son, if and when I lose this favourite
pair of strippers, I will retire on the spot...:))
A far bigger problem is amateur installers who twist the wire
together, then put a piece of the insulation back over the
connection.
With crimp style B connectors costing about $18 for a thousand, what
kind of untrained, cheapsh*t idiot does that. To answer my own
question, far too many....
Interesting -- the comany that did my installion is by far the biggest
company in my home state of Massachusetts. They have 20,000 plus
customers. They are considered the "cadillac" of alarm companies and
saturate all the upscale neighborhoods.
Yet their installations use solder connections... go figure.
All connections (except at the panel) are twisted, soldered, and
wrapped
in white electrical tape... They believe (rightly or wrongly) that it
is
the mark of a high quality installation.
Personally, I would agree that crimp connections are certainly faster
and most likely as reliable as solder if done correctly. Solder
connections also are harder to do and take more skill. Hence since time
is money and the average installer has barely a high school degree and
some minimal technical training, it makes sense to use some type of
connector.

RHC: Sir, it has nothing to do with anyone's level of education. You
seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder relative to the people
in our trade. It is a simple matter of the fact that approved B crimp
connectors are widely in use in the industry and 100% reliable as long
as the wires are never nicked in the process. I don't know anything
about this company you speak of; however, if in fact they are
soldering every connection, they are widely wasting their time for
little or no benefit. Plus in some of the areas where we typically
have to work, a hot soldering iron would be a fire hazard in the
extreme. Why would any company risk setting a fire for no real gain.
It sounds to me as if the management of this company are stuck
somewhere in the 1960's....

PS: Speaking for myself, I hold two university degrees. Most
installers I know are not necessarily college educated, but I submit
to you, this has no bearing on their attitude to work, or much of
anything else for that matter. Success in business has more to do with
basic, old world attitudes towards honest and hard work than to any
specific level of education. I have at one time, run a business worth
over $600 million a year, but this does not make me a good installer,
or for that matter, a good independant businessman either.

I suggest, if you wish to be taken seriously here, a change in basic
attitude might help.....

I STILL stand behind my claim that crimp [pressure gas seal]
connection is more reliable than a solder connection.

This claim would require a definition of "better".
Based upon the following three items:
1. Telephone company uses it, and made it super fast and easy.

They mostly use a ScotchLok or similar type connector. They also use
uniform wire sizes in the applications where they use them, and they tend to
explode when they take a high voltage spike from a nearby lightning strike.
I have re-spliced hundreds of pairs in pedestals after a particularly bad
storm. UR, UY, and UG connectors only work on solid wire. I use them on
underground and aerial telephone applications. These are one of the easiest
connectors to use right if used for the correct application. These are
almost always grease filled to protect the connections from oxidation.
2. The Experienced Security System Installers with years of experience
that I worked with insisted it was so.

Security tends towards B wire connectors (commonly called beanies). While
with some care and attention to detail they can be used on stranded and
solid wire, and wire of different sizes, they were really intended to be
used for solid wire of the same size. I have been using them for about
almost as long as I have been using ScotchLoks. Beanies are fairly easy to
use, but proper tapered crimping requires a specialized tool that almost
nobody has. I have one, but I am so in tune with getting beans installed
just right for both intended and non-intended use that I use the rear smooth
square jaw of my needles. Two crimps. One firm at the tip and one less
firm at the opening seems to work fairly well, but I have found it to be
difficult to teach that to people. Also methods for dealing with different
size wires, stranded wire, etc. These can be ordered either dry or grease
filled.
3. My personal experience after ignoring their advice, and believe me
I KNOW how to solder well. Clean copper wire, twisted 5 to 7 times,
[actually duplicating a pressure contact - not counting on the solder
for connection, rather counting on the copper to copper connection
with solder merely 'holding' the connection together] flux soldered
with fresh solder and beautiful wicking, and no crystalization visible
using 10X examination. Solder ALWAYS crystalizes as it cools, nature
of the process, but should not be allowed to cool with an excessive
gradient across the junction.

Soldering works with any size wire, and stranded or solid or both equally.
While soldering properly has a learning curve, once somebody learns to "see"
the shine and flow of a proper solder joint they can do any type of wire
(with a soldering iron suitable to the job).
There must be some objective reliability data regarding this subject.
Any Environmental Test Labs out there that's done these tests and will
share results?

One of my bosses a bazillion years ago (before I started my own company)
went to one of those fancy hoity toity tech schools. He told me they did
some testing in school and they found that for their proper applications
when installed properly beanies made a better electrical connection than a
Scotchlok, but that proper soldering for a non movement/vibration
environment was still the standard against which other electrical
connections are made.

That being said, I have worked on alarm systems that are all soldered and
shrink wrapped at every connection, and they problems I have found have
always been with the hardware. Not the wiring or the solder joints.

I use beanies in the field for alarms because they are fast, non-toxic, and
slightly more versatile than ScotchLoks.
 
G

G. Morgan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
Based upon the following three items:
1. Telephone company uses it, and made it super fast and easy.
2. The Experienced Security System Installers with years of experience
that I worked with insisted it was so.
3. My personal experience after ignoring their advice,

We use "B" connectors, not the see thru round ones Telco's use.

They say you don't have to pre-strip the wire, but I make a solid
mechanical connection then squeeze the whole thing evenly into
silicone-filled "BB's, peanuts, beans, ... whatever".

A good solder connection is actually better, but it depends on how the
joint is sealed after the solder. Black-tape does not cut it, but that
is what is used when they don't use BB's.

These:
http://www.amazon.com/Dolphin-DC-100S-Super-Connector-Sealant/dp/B000JP3GB6
 
G

G. Morgan

Jan 1, 1970
0
Frank said:
Here on the "wet coast", we used to solder all our connections until GRI
came up with 3/8 mini-contacts with terminals. No more messing with
off-set in-line splices or trying to wrestle beanies into or out of a
3/8" hole.


Those are super. I like them a lot.
 
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