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OEM chips for X-10 available?

M

mike

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eduardo said:
Let's retake the subject, because it resulted in a discussion about
pahses and so on...:)

The micromint PLIX chip seemed perfect for the task until I found out
I also needed another module (TW523) whose size is huge (apart from
the cost).

Once again, I don't want to shut the doors just to X-10. I need an
easy to implement and unexpensive protocol to communicate over the
PLC. Even I can lay a data cable for this matter, because I have a
spare electrical tube between each pair of boxes I asked just for this
purpose. When I heard about X-10 I thought I wouldn't need to use the
spare tube, but now when I see the complexity, I do not discard using
it.

Someone mentioned Lonworks. Does it make my problem easy to solve?

Another commands protocol for remote switching over the PLC, or over a
dedicated data line which can be implemented mostly on one chip and
unexpensively?

Thanks!
Eduardo.
Well, if you've got a wire...
PIC16F87Xa. Builtin serial port, whether you need level translator
depends on length and noise. Onechip, lots of i/o.
Probably can find a cheaper more current part with enough capability.
mike
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B

Brian

Jan 1, 1970
0
Eduardo said:
Hello.

I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
several years.

I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.

Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
for this.

Many thanks in advance.

Eduardo Gimeno.
Spain

I don't know about an "all-in-one" chip. It would have to handle 120V
or 220V power input to synchronize with the zero crossing. The PL513,
TW523, LM465 and CM17A units that X-10 sells are fairly cheap. But
you'll need a TW723 (or is it TW7223?) for 220V, 50Hz systems, if
that's what Spain uses.

http://www.nutsvolts.com/toc_Pages/TOC_Related_Info/0411/Murtha.pdf

There's an article in the current Circuit Cellar about using a CM17A
with an RS232 UART.

- Brian

http://www.rabbitsemiconductor.com
http://www.zworld.com
http://www.imaginetools.com
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
Let's retake the subject, because it resulted in a discussion about
pahses and so on...:)

The micromint PLIX chip seemed perfect for the task until I found out
I also needed another module (TW523) whose size is huge (apart from
the cost).

Once again, I don't want to shut the doors just to X-10. I need an
easy to implement and unexpensive protocol to communicate over the
PLC. Even I can lay a data cable for this matter, because I have a
spare electrical tube between each pair of boxes I asked just for this
purpose. When I heard about X-10 I thought I wouldn't need to use the
spare tube, but now when I see the complexity, I do not discard using
it.

Someone mentioned Lonworks. Does it make my problem easy to solve?

Another commands protocol for remote switching over the PLC, or over a
dedicated data line which can be implemented mostly on one chip and
unexpensively?

---
Somehow, I seem to be missing something here.

What, specifically, do you want?

Somewhere upstream I thought I heard you ask for a way to transmit the
state of eight dipswitches to a remote location using the power line
as a communications medium. Is that all you want, or is there more to
it?
 
E

Eduardo Gimeno

Jan 1, 1970
0
John, what I need is the following:

I need to find some IC, Chip, module, etc... which performs all the
protocol/signal processing/... for transmitting control information
over a line. At first I was proposing PLC, because I read something
about X-10 and seemed OK. But now, I can assume using a dedicated line
because I have an empty spare electrical tube along all the house.

I just want to have all the stuff X-10 does. I.e: Remote
lamp/appliance switching, remote IR detection, automated house control
from a computer, etc...

I will not make any commercial product. I just want to spend my time
doing some useful installation at my own home.

I would like to find a small and cheap module/ic which I can fit in a
reduced size PCB of my own with a microcontroller (programmed by me)
to install in the wall switches and plugs. I can use SMD components.

What I said about using dipswitches an so on was: I would like to find
a very simple to use IC, which, for example, would have some pins to
select the station (ie 8 external dipswitches), 2 pins for the signal
from the line, and some pins for the processed command, which I could
feed to my microcontroller. I now I am asking for too much... but
maybe someone knows something which seems to this.

I do not discard using the microcontroller itself to implement the
whole protocol over a serial port, anyhow.

Regards and thanks to everyone for your replies!

Eduardo.
 
E

Eduardo Gimeno

Jan 1, 1970
0
Brian said:
I don't know about an "all-in-one" chip. It would have to handle 120V
or 220V power input to synchronize with the zero crossing. The PL513,
TW523, LM465 and CM17A units that X-10 sells are fairly cheap. But
you'll need a TW723 (or is it TW7223?) for 220V, 50Hz systems, if
that's what Spain uses.

Brian, if I use TW-XXX I cannot embed it into the wall switch or plug,
due to the huge size of the module. As I stated before, I can use a
dedicated line, so I can avoid all the stuff about zero-crossing and
so on. I have quite much experience on ATMega microcontrollers, also
quite much on SGS-Thomson (ST-62XX) and some on PICs. I would need to
find the simplest and smallest one having serial port and at least 12
IOs (8 for station ID dips), 2 for serial port, and 2 for command
in/out...

Regards,
Eduardo.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
John, what I need is the following:

I need to find some IC, Chip, module, etc... which performs all the
protocol/signal processing/... for transmitting control information
over a line. At first I was proposing PLC, because I read something
about X-10 and seemed OK. But now, I can assume using a dedicated line
because I have an empty spare electrical tube along all the house.

I just want to have all the stuff X-10 does. I.e: Remote
lamp/appliance switching, remote IR detection, automated house control
from a computer, etc...

I will not make any commercial product. I just want to spend my time
doing some useful installation at my own home.

I would like to find a small and cheap module/ic which I can fit in a
reduced size PCB of my own with a microcontroller (programmed by me)
to install in the wall switches and plugs. I can use SMD components.

What I said about using dipswitches an so on was: I would like to find
a very simple to use IC, which, for example, would have some pins to
select the station (ie 8 external dipswitches), 2 pins for the signal
from the line, and some pins for the processed command, which I could
feed to my microcontroller. I now I am asking for too much... but
maybe someone knows something which seems to this.

I do not discard using the microcontroller itself to implement the
whole protocol over a serial port, anyhow.

---
If you already know how to work with microcontrollers, why not roll
your own?

As far as getting the signal on the line goes, it's pretty simple;
just capacitively couple a high-frequency tone burst signal onto the
mains using a frequency far enough displaced from the mains frequency
that the capacitor looks like a very large reactance to the mains
frequency while being small enough to let your signalling frequency
pass, like this:

Here's a link to some X10 technical documents:

http://www.x10.com/support/technology1.htm
 
K

Keith Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
John, what I need is the following:

I need to find some IC, Chip, module, etc... which performs all the
protocol/signal processing/... for transmitting control information
over a line. At first I was proposing PLC, because I read something
about X-10 and seemed OK. But now, I can assume using a dedicated line
because I have an empty spare electrical tube along all the house.

I just want to have all the stuff X-10 does. I.e: Remote
lamp/appliance switching, remote IR detection, automated house control
from a computer, etc...

I will not make any commercial product. I just want to spend my time
doing some useful installation at my own home.

I would like to find a small and cheap module/ic which I can fit in a
reduced size PCB of my own with a microcontroller (programmed by me)
to install in the wall switches and plugs. I can use SMD components.

What I said about using dipswitches an so on was: I would like to find
a very simple to use IC, which, for example, would have some pins to
select the station (ie 8 external dipswitches), 2 pins for the signal
from the line, and some pins for the processed command, which I could
feed to my microcontroller. I now I am asking for too much... but
maybe someone knows something which seems to this.

I do not discard using the microcontroller itself to implement the
whole protocol over a serial port, anyhow.

I'd think this through some more.

1. House resale. X-10 stuff is pretty normal these days. X-10 outlets
and switches wouldn't scare anyone away. I'd not buy a house that had
DIY electrical components in it.

2. Legalities. Many areas have laws regarding what can be tied into
the mains. Your widgets aren't going to be UL/CSA/whatever approved.

3. Liability. If the house catches on fire or someone gets hurt...

4. Insurance. If the house catches on fire you don't have any. If the
insurance company even finds out you have a modified system and
unapproved equipment, you don't have any.

Personally, I'd find another hobby or at least stick with X10/Leviton
devices connected into the mains. I wouldn't be so worried about
things that plug in, though even here I'd be using approved wall warts,
if at all possible.
 
A

Andrew Burgess

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Fields said:
As far as getting the signal on the line goes, it's pretty simple;
just capacitively couple a high-frequency tone burst signal onto the
mains using a frequency far enough displaced from the mains frequency
that the capacitor looks like a very large reactance to the mains
frequency while being small enough to let your signalling frequency
pass, like this:

Can you do this without a transformer?
And if not, can you use a cheap off the shelf or surplus xfmr?
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
John, what I need is the following:

I need to find some IC, Chip, module, etc... which performs all the
protocol/signal processing/... for transmitting control information
over a line. At first I was proposing PLC, because I read something
about X-10 and seemed OK. But now, I can assume using a dedicated line
because I have an empty spare electrical tube along all the house.

Then install an ethernet. Run Cat 5 UTP through all of the conduit - you
could even use all 4 pairs, and have two actual RJ45s at each outlet, if
you want. You'd have to decide where your main hub is, and mount a jack
there for each one around the house, of course. (You can't daisy-chain
them.)

I can't imagine not being able to find some kind of simple ethernet
interface-on-a-chip, or for that matter, since they're your wires, you
could send something as simple as a contact closure, or 12 VDC to operate
a relay at the remote end.

Your boxes at the lamp end would just plug in like an X-10 box or RS
remote lamp box, but have just a relay, that plugs into the RJ45 jack that
you're using just to send 12V on one of the sets that doesn't use ethernet.

Or, you could plug in a computer and have a real live network. :)

And since the wall plates just have RJ45s, and it's cat 5 in the conduit,
there's no code to worry about, and you might even _increase_ the
resale value of the house! ("... and this is the Server Room..." ;-) )

Have Fun!
Rich
 
R

Reg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rich said:
And since the wall plates just have RJ45s, and it's cat 5 in the conduit,
there's no code to worry about, and you might even _increase_ the
resale value of the house! ("... and this is the Server Room..." ;-) )

Interestingly, I just got finished with a San Francisco city inspector
looking at some new AC wiring, and the project also involved running some
cat5.

According to them, the 2002 NEC regs will take effect in August. They
said that had the work taken place after that I would be required to get
specific permits for the "communications" wire.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
Can you do this without a transformer?

Yes:

MAINS>--+-----+-------------/ /-----+-----+------------------
| | | |
| [C] | [C]
| | | |
| +--+--+ | +--+--+
+--| TX | +--| RX |--[LOAD]--+
| | | | |
+--| | +--| |----------+
| +-----+ | +-----+
| |
| |
MAINS>--+------------------/ /------+------------------------




Looking at the caps connected to the mains, if inside the TX box we
have something like this,:


MAINS>----+----------+
| |
+--+--+ [C1]
|TONE | |
|BURST+-------+
| GEN | |
+--+--+ [R1]
| |
MAINS>----+----------+


what we'll want to do is keep the 170V peak AC from damaging the tone
burst generator, while at the same time allowing the generator to
couple bursts of a high frequency tone to the mains. Just for grins,
let's say that we'd like to keep the 60Hz down to about +/- a volt at
the R1C1 junction, and we'd like R1 to be about 100 ohms. That means
that we'll have to limit the 60Hz current through R1 to


E 1V
I = --- = ------ = 0.01A
R 100R

With 170V on the mains, that means that the impedance of R1C1 has to
look like:


170V
Z = ------- = 17000 ohms
0.01A


Now, since


Z = sqrt (R² + Xc²)


and we need to find the value of C1, we can rearrange to get the
reactance of C1:



Xc = sqrt (Z² - R²) = sqrt (17000² - 100²) ~ 17000R



And the capacitance will be:


1
C = ---------- ~ 0.156µF
2pi f Xc



So now we have this:


MAINS>----+----------+
| |
+--+--+ [0.15µF]
|TONE | |
|BURST+-------+
| GEN | |
+--+--+ [100R]
| |
MAINS>----+----------+

and we want to place a signal on the mains. First we'll choose a nice
high frequency (say 100kHz) so that the reactance of C1 will be nice
and low to it, allowing it to pass through and onto the mains without
attenuating it too much.


At 100kHz the reactance of 0.15µF will be


1
Xc = --------- ~ 10 ohms
2pi f C

So that looks pretty good, and the last thing that needs to be done is
to decide on the output amplitude of the tone burst generator.

If we say that our receiver has a sensitivity threshold of 100mV at
100kHz during the mains zero-crossings, and we want the receiver to
work with a 10kW load on the mains, then our circuit starts to look
like this:


MAINS>----+----------+-------+
| | |
+--+--+ [10R] |
|TONE | | |
|BURST+-------+ [1.44R]
| GEN | | |
+--+--+ [100R] |
| | |
MAINS>----+----------+-------+


Which is essentially this:



+-----+
|TONE |
|BURST+-------+--------+---E1
| GEN | | |
+--+--+ [100R] [10R]R1
| | |
| | +---E2
| | |
| | [1.44R]R2
| | |
+----------+--------+


In order to have E2 be 0.1V, we'll need E1 to be



(R1 + R2)
E1 = E2 ----------- = 0.794V
R2


and the generator will have to pump current into the impedance formed
by everything across the mains, which reduces to:


+----------+
| |
| [10R]
[100R] |
| [1.44R]
| |
+----------+

and, finally, to:



|
[10.26R]
|


which is close enough to 10 ohms for our purpose, which is to
determine how much current the tone burst generator has to supply into
10 ohms to get a drop of 0.794 across it, and since


E 0.79V
I = --- = ------- = 0.079A ~ 80mA
R 10R

it'll be eminently doable, and as a matter of fact, upping it to 1V
would get us better receiver operation and only require 100 mA out of
the tone burst generator.
 
E

Eduardo Gimeno

Jan 1, 1970
0
John, thanks for your calculation for the adapter part. Maybe I will
have to use them in short (converted to 50Hz and 220 V...)

Some comments about the replies:

1.-Cabling all the house with Ethernet would be the most profitable
solution, but would also involve making a really big project of the
design, and filling the tubes up with lots of cables. Suppose I need
to have control over ALL the lamps and from all the switches. My house
(2 floors) would have several hubs/switches at given places, and some
tubes would carry more cables than expected due to design of network
(avoid more switches)

2.-I don't know yet the legal problems I would have here in Spain if I
modify the electrical installation, or from the assurance company in
case of fire... I should ask about it before doing anything.

3.-I think I will consider two choices:
a) Using a dedicated cable with a low level protocol, i.e. with
RS485, and a top level protocol of my own in a PIC, for example. The
cable would only have to go through all the switches one time, like a
bus.

b) Using a home-made X10-like protocol, with the indications from
John Fields. Positive: I would avoid using the dedicated cable.
Negative: I would have to train for a while until building the right
"interface" module.

Once again, thanks to everyone for all the replies and help!
Eduardo.
 
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