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OOPS! I MEAN BIG OOPS, MAYBE. ROOKIE MISTAKE

HANKMARS

Jul 28, 2019
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While working on an audio amplifier of my own design (by that I mean a 2 stage, A class amplifier, nothing novel) and using a 2N3055 for power out, I was using 20" test jumper leads for making interconnects. Most of them draped over the front of the bench and hung alongside my leg and some times over my leg. I had no filters or chokes in the circuit. I believe I may have inadvertently been picking up high frequency signals and amplifying them as well as the audio signal. Since that time I have been experiencing severe pain in my left knee and calf. 20 days now. I have seen 2 doctors. Diagnosis; Sprained knee, arthritis. BS & BS. Does anyone have experience with radio burns. I am desperate. I do realize that I did this to myself so maybe reserve my caning until I feel better. I do now vaguely remember something from school about, "Keep your leads short."DSCF3350 (2).JPG
 

PETERDECO

Dec 19, 2019
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Hank, I was reading up on exposure effects of RF. Negative effects have been reported by RF at very high frequencies and at very high power levels. Your 2N3055 may pass a few MHZ but certainly not at any appreciable power level. Back in the 1970's I had a 5 Watt CB walkie talkie which I practically lived on all day. 5 Watts, 27MHZ in front of my face all day long. I'm not a doctor but I don't think your amplifier caused this.
 

HANKMARS

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I would have never thought so either. The following article tends to differ. My comments are in red.RADIO BURNS COMP 1.2.png
 

HANKMARS

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Hank, I was reading up on exposure effects of RF. Negative effects have been reported by RF at very high frequencies and at very high power levels. Your 2N3055 may pass a few MHZ but certainly not at any appreciable power level. Back in the 1970's I had a 5 Watt CB walkie talkie which I practically lived on all day. 5 Watts, 27MHZ in front of my face all day long. I'm not a doctor but I don't think your amplifier caused this.
The high freq in your CB is shielded quite well. The mic carries only audio freqs for the most part.
 

PETERDECO

Dec 19, 2019
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It had a telescopic whip antenna 6 inches from my forehead. And I believe what the ICNIRP is referring to is constant exposure. Living, sleeping, eating, bathing in a house that is constantly emiting RF is one thing but draping test leads over a leg while working on an audio amplifier is, what I believe, somewhat different.
 

Harald Kapp

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GHz signals can cause burns, think "microwave oven".
At a few MHz you will require veeeery long exposure.

I'm not a physician, even less a radiology specialist, but I doubt your knee has been damaged by the "radiation" from your test setup. Put some trust in the doctor's diagnosis. The effect may be a sheer coincidence, maybe aqmplified by your posture while sitting at your workbench.
 

Nanren888

Nov 8, 2015
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This is a large area of many aspects, including frequency, distance, density and exposure time, but to cut to the chase; I have published in this area and from what you have said, I can tell you that wasn't it. Look for other causes.
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I'd be more concerned about those CB-in-the-face guys and those who routinely wear their units adjacent to their kidneys.
 

HANKMARS

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GHz signals can cause burns, think "microwave oven".
At a few MHz you will require veeeery long exposure.

I'm not a physician, even less a radiology specialist, but I doubt your knee has been damaged by the "radiation" from your test setup. Put some trust in the doctor's diagnosis. The effect may be a sheer coincidence, maybe aqmplified by your posture while sitting at your workbench.
Three days prior to the onset of pain, I had smacked my knee rather sharply. I was quite amazed that no pain followed the incident. My previous theory was that I had chipped a bone and that chip is now irritating a nerve. Or, upon that incident, a nerve got tucked into a "pinch" area. The drs reading the x-rays do not support this. I was due for an MRI but orthopedics dr convinced it was arthritis flare up. I received a 10ml injection of cortisone, pain killer, and one other substance. 24 to 72 hours required for results. Ziltch, nada, nothing, null. Not a single ion of difference. It has been my experience to see radio waves travel anywhere they please throughout a circuit unless filtered or choked off. My power supply can deliver 8A at 12V, maybe 20A. I'm a little uncertain and I can't get to it right now. The 2N3055 is not a high frequency device but I may have an inadvertent tank circuit or other resonator in circuit. It is a mystery and I do appreciate all of your input. I have an appointment tomorrow with a competent physician and am quite anxious to get his opinion. To keep from being balled up in a fetal position from pain, I am exceeding the 4 gram limit of acetaminophen warning. Something must happen, soon.
 

HANKMARS

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This is a large area of many aspects, including frequency, distance, density and exposure time, but to cut to the chase; I have published in this area and from what you have said, I can tell you that wasn't it. Look for other causes.
.
I'd be more concerned about those CB-in-the-face guys and those who routinely wear their units adjacent to their kidneys.
See reply to Harold Kapp.
 

Nanren888

Nov 8, 2015
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Acetaminophen. I think, here known as paracetamol is one of those with a characteristic of the effect of side-effects increasing rapidly with overdose.
I can't comment on the quantity you mention, nor offer medical advice, but in general I suspect people might use in conjunction with other pain killers, particularly store-bought combinations, rather than exceed the recommended dose of paracetamol.
 

HANKMARS

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Understood. I still have a grip on things and am somewhat mindful of the label warnings. I am, I suppose you could say, in a fringe area. I supplement the acetaminophen with aspirin which I understand is an NSAID, Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug. However, too much aspirin can damage kidneys, if I understand correctly. I consider medicine almost not science. It is so inexact in some matters while other matters can produce 100% repeatability. It is a field of study as long as mankind has been around but seems so full of holes. Non-sharing of information? Oppressed information? I doubt I will ever know the truth of it. The medical pros around here seem to be a little gun shy about prescribing opioids, as well they should be, but a trend I see in this area is the dependence upon interpretation of body language and emotion. Two very important tells, agreed, but here and maybe other places, its uses have been taken to a level of idiocy. If one pauses to gather an accurate answer to a question, they are lying. If one should actual turn their head and gaze upward, they are lying. Easy justification of determinations by the weak-minded professional. If you find a "professional" with an ability to maintain attention, cherish them. I do appreciate your attention to this matter. Thank you. I am meeting tomorrow which an actual living, thinking human being with which to ponder my affliction. Hopefully the meeting will produce some resolve.
 

HANKMARS

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Since we are in the off topic lounge, I will question medical "science" a little more. If we do deem the practice of medicine to be science, then by all means, Granny Clampett must be awarded an honorary Doctorate Degree. Some 40 years ago, I questioned my family dentist about the safety of forming an amalgam from mercury and silver. Mercury being considered as highly toxic and so on. His answer was simply, " I don't know." Truth? Maybe. What I state as "facts" here on out, have come from only hearsay from casual conversations with various chemists. The greater danger of mercury comes when the mercury is in the form of a vapor. At that point, the individual particles are small enough to pass through the wall of cells of living tissue. That is where the trouble begins. A Hatter, a maker of hats, would have been bathing in mercury vapor at times, hence, Crazy as a Hatter. I played with liquid mercury on our kitchen table when I was a child. Not for days but 2 or 3 times. I have since had no neurological impairment that I am aware of. But back to dentistry. I was told that if I were to put a mercury vapor sniffer into the mouth of a person who had 6 or 8 mercury/silver amalgam fillings, the readings would most likely be a hundred times greater than that of acceptable standards for exposure at a work station. That is an experiment I intend to perform someday. Hopefully I will have time before the planet killer glyphosate takes hold.
 

HANKMARS

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A bit of an after thought. If I induced a standing wave ratio of 1:1 in a 1 meter test lead, that would be a frequency of ~300MHz. If I induced a 10:1 wave ratio in a 1 meter test lead, that would be a frequency of ~3GHz. Just a notion. I must admit that thru life, my self-diagnoses have about a 15% success rate. So.......
 

HANKMARS

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Another off the wall notion is that 300Mhz might be just right to drive a 2N3055 into self-oscillation. I'm on may way to a doctors appointment.
 

HANKMARS

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OK. By all rights I must concede this round of argument. My doctor concluded, and I am bound to agree, that I am suffering from lumbar radiculopathy. Radiculopathy is an inflammation of the nerve root resulting from "pinching" where it pokes out of the spinal column. In this case, the L3 vertebrae. For over 20 years I have been dealing with a herniated disc below my L5 vertebrae. Quite successfully I must add. Through specific exercises and anti-inflammatory drugs, I coexist with this affliction readily. I was familiar with its characteristics of numbness on the sides and fronts of my thighs accompanied by lower back discomfort. That is why I was a bit reluctant to accept the idea of radiculopathy, mostly because of the absence of lower back pain. Thank you all who contributed your thots on this thread and for your patience. I get a little testy and do not always think rationally when in severe pain and am drop dead tired. I will be perusing the AUDIO section of the forums looking for hints as to my best paths for constructing the amps that will satisfy my audio needs.
 

Sunnysky

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The impedance coupled by wires is very high so to get 5 mA m-2 which means per meter squared, you would need 10kV of audio if the coupling reactance was 2 kOhm

More likely bacteria (Septic arthritis, likely caused by an organism of the Enterobacteriaceae family)
or posture or age related.
Frequent stretch is critical to keeping plasma and blood circulation from causing inflamation.
 

davenn

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Not a single ion of difference. It has been my experience to see radio waves travel anywhere they please throughout a circuit unless filtered or choked off. My power supply can deliver 8A at 12V, maybe 20A. I'm a little uncertain and I can't get to it right now. The 2N3055 is not a high frequency device but I may have an inadvertent tank circuit or other resonator in circuit.

Not going to happen period!
you are stressing over a problem that doesnt have anything to do with your circuit
 

HANKMARS

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The impedance coupled by wires is very high so to get 5 mA m-2 which means per meter squared, you would need 10kV of audio if the coupling reactance was 2 kOhm

More likely bacteria (Septic arthritis, likely caused by an organism of the Enterobacteriaceae family)
or posture or age related.
Frequent stretch is critical to keeping plasma and blood circulation from causing inflamation.
Is it an English thing to use a negative sign in front of the exponent, or rather the super script? I really don't know. You are most likely correct. After 10 mostly sleepless nights, due to excruciating pain, I went to the emergency department around 10 pm, thinking it would be low on activity and it was. I was hoping to, at the very least get some pain relief medication. They diagnosed my ailment as a sprained knee, gave me a knee brace, one hydrocodone and one pill for nausea since I had mentioned that at times I became nauseous from the pain, and sent me on my unmerry way. Total bust. Instruction recommended seeing an orthopediatricion. I made an appointment with a doctor of that discipline and he determined I was having an arthritic flare up. (My first ever.) Gave me a 10mL injection of cortozone, some sort of pain relief liquid, and a sort of lubricant. Said it would be 24 to 72 hours before any real relief was noticed. Nope. Didn't happen. Strike 2. I went to see a physician that I had seen before and plan on making my PHP. He deduced the pain was a result of radiculopathy. A pinching or tight restriction of spinal nerves causing sciatic related symptoms. I am aware that I have 2 herniated discs. One below my L5 vertebrae and one below the L3 vertebrae. I sincerely take measures to avoid the inflammation of nerve strings. He prescribed a 14 day regiment of drug therapy which did indeed relieve the sciatic type discomfort that I was now experiencing. That treatment is now exhausted and the initial pain is back but much less severe. It has been approximately 8 weeks since the onset of the mystery pain. That is about the time it takes a broken bone to significantly remauldle. So other than my radio frequency burn theory, I am going with hairline fracture of an undetermined leg bone. The radio freq burn theory used freqs in the MHz range picked up (since we all bath in a mish-mash of EM waves) by my long test leads. Are your calcs using an audio freq range of ~ 20 to 20KHz? NOTE: The DC resistance of my test leads is 2Ωs. I understand that at HF that impedance will increase.
 
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