OT: printer cartridge replacement reality

[Robert Baer]

In fact, given the way Epson promotes their printers to high-volume
professional photographers -- and some of them even have ink tank systems
with ink by the liter -- I am skeptical about the allegation. It sounds
like exactly the kind of thing a salesman would say to steer people away
from Epson toward his product.

Or it could be a half-truth. There may be counters that indicate when some
internal parts are likely to be worn out.

Like i mentioned elsewhere, one of the ink replacement kit companies
*sells* inkjet cartridge reset software for about $20.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

In fact, given the way Epson promotes their printers to high-volume
professional photographers -- and some of them even have ink tank systems
with ink by the liter -- I am skeptical about the allegation. It sounds
like exactly the kind of thing a salesman would say to steer people away
from Epson toward his product.

Or it could be a half-truth. There may be counters that indicate when some
internal parts are likely to be worn out.

The consumer models have this garbage built in.

Xerox does it to some of their office copiers. A plug in serial
EEROM counts to 50,000 copies and shuts the copier down until the chip
is replaced for $120 or more. The Xerox part is marked M67985 and is a
C.O.B. assembly mounted on a HiRose connector that I can't identify. I
have one removed from the copier at my church when it had to be
serviced. They refer to it as a "Code Plug"

--
Link to my "Computers for disabled Veterans" project website deleted
after threats were telephoned to my church.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Joel Kolstad]

PERFECT!!!
Many thanks for the valuable info!

Quick update: I'm told that the new Canon printers from just the past couple
of months (e.g., ip4200 -- the ones that say 'new' at
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=103)
ARE now using chipped cartridges. :-( Better get the current models before
they're gone if you're planning on refilling.

 

[mike]

Must be nice to have so little work that you have time on your hands
to waste on questionable-quality refill kits.

Me, I just log into OfficeMax.com, make a few clicks, and a new
cartridge appears at my door the next day, no shipping charges.

If I used a refill kit it would save me about 5 minutes of income and
take me 15 minutes to do the task. Hardly worth the effort.

...Jim Thompson

Your actions fit nicely within their business model. They're counting
on your typical actions.
But that don't make it right to FORCE me to buy their overpriced ink.
If I wanted to RENT my printer, I would have rented my printer.
IF I buy something, I expect it to work FOREVER!!!

Now, if the FTC just demanded that they put a label on the box that said,
"this printer will stop working after 50K pages. And you MUST buy our
overpriced ink," I'd be a happy camper.

If you want an interesting exercise in "truth in advertising", buy a
cheap chicken pot pie. Cook it, open the lid and compare it to the
picture on the box. ;-(
mike

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MAKE THE OBVIOUS CHANGES TO THE LINK
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[martin griffith]

Depends on the model. Some of the newer models use "chipped" cartridges with
unique IDs, and once the printers decides that they're empty, it'll refuse to
use them again. However, the printer itself remembers the cartridge IDs and I
seem to recall it only remembers something like the last two you've used, so
it's easy to fool by keeping a set of three cartridges around and rotating
their usage (a good idea anyway). Alternatively, you can find on the 'net
which pins on the cartridge to cover up so as to foil reading the ID
completely, and -- happily -- HP decided that it was better to just keep
printing anyway in such cases rather than refusing to print at all.


I believe so. I have a DeskJet 6127 that just keeps on printing even though
it's been whining at me that there's "0% black ink left!" for many months now
(I've refilled it twice...).

In terms of user-unfriendlisness towards refilling, I think that Epson is the
worst, HP is in the middle, and Canon is the friendliest. For <$120, a Canon
ip6000d is one heck of a deal (auto duplexing, two paper trays, built in
memory card reader & color LCD, etc.), the cartridges are translucent and -- I
believe, haven't done it myself yet -- easy to refill.

---Joel Kolstad

The Epson C61 black ink cartridge contains 20 millilitres of ink at a
retail price of $70. That’s $3.50 per ml or a staggering $3500 per
litre. By comparison the cyan, magenta and yellow inks in the 42ml
colour cartridge divided into three 14ml tanks are a comparative
snip at $1550 each per litre


martin

 

[[email protected]]

If this is true, has it been reported to the Federal Trade Commission?

There have been lawsuits by printer manufacturers under the DMCA,
trying to prevent people from reverse-engineering the chips in those
protected cartridges.

http://news.com.com/Ruling+on+refil...+DMCA/2100-1041_3-5427708.html?tag=st.ref.goo

summarized at

http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/Lexmark_v_Static_Control/

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that martin griffith

The Epson C61 black ink cartridge contains 20 millilitres of ink at a
retail price of $70. That’s $3.50 per ml or a staggering $3500 per
litre. By comparison the cyan, magenta and yellow inks in the 42ml
colour cartridge divided into three 14ml tanks are a comparative
snip at $1550 each per litre

The black ink contains more unobtanium nullate.

 

[Robert Latest]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:08:48 -0700,

If I used a refill kit it would save me about 5 minutes of income and
take me 15 minutes to do the task.

....so you can waste the 10 minutes you just gained on Usenet posts. Do
you really use that much ink? ;-)

robert

 

[mc]

Worse, if one uses the printer a lot, the printer itself ceases to

One could say "from a stranger in a NG", but there was a lot of traffic
on the posting, and a lot of agreement.

There was agreement about Craig Shergold too.

 

[mc]

Worse, if one uses the printer a lot, the printer itself ceases to

....and, one of the refill companies *sells* cartridge reset software
for about $20!

To re-initialize an individual cartridge, or to re-initialize the printer
after it has supposedly reached its age limit?

I don't think there's any dispute that individual cartridges are digitally
coded and not reusable, with various printers. What I'm talking about is
the claim quoted above -- that there is an arbitrary limit on the total use
of the printer.

I find that hard to believe because (1) it would probably violate laws of
many countries, and (2) there are high-volume photo studios using Epson
printers and I've heard no complaints about them from the photo industry.

 

[mc]

Your actions fit nicely within their business model. They're counting on
your typical actions.
But that don't make it right to FORCE me to buy their overpriced ink.
If I wanted to RENT my printer, I would have rented my printer.
IF I buy something, I expect it to work FOREVER!!!

Now, if the FTC just demanded that they put a label on the box that said,
"this printer will stop working after 50K pages. And you MUST buy our
overpriced ink," I'd be a happy camper.

That's why I continue to point out that we have no confirmation of any such
thing, only rumors. The FTC would object very strongly (and the EC even
more strongly) if the printer had a built-in life limit that was not
disclosed to the customer.

The printer *does* have parts that wear out. And it may have a counter that
says when they need replacing. Automobiles have similar things. But that
is not the same as simply rigging it to stop working at a particular age.

Before you get angry at Epson, try to find out whether they are really
guilty as charged. We have, at the moment, NO SOURCE for the allegation.

 

[mc]

There have been lawsuits by printer manufacturers under the DMCA,
trying to prevent people from reverse-engineering the chips in those
protected cartridges.

I don't mean the cartridge protection. I mean the allegation that the
printer itself becomes inoperative after a certain amount of printing, due
to a digital limit, even though there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[mc]

Like i mentioned elsewhere, one of the ink replacement kit companies
*sells* inkjet cartridge reset software for about $20.

Yes, but I wasn't talking about cartridges. Reread, please.

 

[[email protected]]

I don't mean the cartridge protection. I mean the allegation that the
printer itself becomes inoperative after a certain amount of printing, due
to a digital limit, even though there's nothing wrong with it.

Many inkjet printers keep track of head cleaning operations - including
automated cleans - so that the waste ink tank (actually a sponge in
most models) doesn't fill up. This is not rare.

For example, read this thread:
http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/forums/inkjet/25564

There's a small peristaltic pump under the parked location of the print
head, which pulls air (and ink) through the head to clean it.

 

[Jim Thompson]

Actually, i have found that the refill ink is better than the
"official" stuff.
And it takes only a minute more to refill than replace (takes time to
open the box, cut open the foil, pry out the new cartridge).

I should clarify... an hp1320 is a LaserJet, NOT an InkJet.

For Spehro, my current cartridge (11/30/2004) stats are:

Pages Printed = 1973
Pages Jammed in Printer = 1
Pages Mispicked in Printer = 6

Not quite sure what that last one means, unless it's manual feed
pick-up ??

...Jim Thompson

 

[Jim Thompson]

Your actions fit nicely within their business model. They're counting
on your typical actions.
But that don't make it right to FORCE me to buy their overpriced ink.
If I wanted to RENT my printer, I would have rented my printer.
IF I buy something, I expect it to work FOREVER!!!

Now, if the FTC just demanded that they put a label on the box that said,
"this printer will stop working after 50K pages. And you MUST buy our
overpriced ink," I'd be a happy camper.

If you want an interesting exercise in "truth in advertising", buy a
cheap chicken pot pie. Cook it, open the lid and compare it to the
picture on the box. ;-(
mike

Me, I have experience only with hp printers. (Bought a Brother from
Price Club a gezillion years ago and took it right back

I've only had 3 printers, a 2P physically worn out, a 6P refurbished
once but then worn out, and now a 1320.

Until this thread I've not heard of a printer with a cycle limit. I
really doubt such could be true unless clearly specified on the box
and in the warranty, etc.

...Jim Thompson

 

[mc]

Many inkjet printers keep track of head cleaning operations - including
automated cleans - so that the waste ink tank (actually a sponge in
most models) doesn't fill up. This is not rare.

Ah. And it's not just a devious plot to sell unnecessary repairs or
replacements, then.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:08:48 -0700,


...so you can waste the 10 minutes you just gained on Usenet posts. Do
you really use that much ink? ;-)

robert

I use none... I have an hp1320 Laserjet ;-)

Actually, my wife has an hp 1120C which prints tabloid (B) size.

I use it occasionally to print out the illegible schematics from
Cadence users ;-)

My design philosophy is, "If it takes more than an A-size per cell,
it's poorly designed". (Except if it's sonar... for Mark/qrk

...Jim Thompson

 

[[email protected]]

Many inkjet printers keep track of head cleaning operations - including

Ah. And it's not just a devious plot to sell unnecessary repairs or
replacements, then.

I didn't say that, now

I am aware, through "back channels", that a few models of inkjet with
fixed print elements did keep track of pages and shut down after a
certain number. The rationale here was that the print head is really a
consumable item and it will inevitably become unreliable. It was
considered better to have it stop functioning than to let it function
intermittently or with poor results (streaks, large droplet size, etc).
Not sure how much I believe that argument, but I AM sure I believe that
this kind of justification could be put forward seriously by marketing.

 

[The Phantom]

Ah. And it's not just a devious plot to sell unnecessary repairs or
replacements, then.

It's a devious plot to sell *unnecessarily expensive* ink cartridges.