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Paper Shredder Fault

spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
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Hi
When I switch on the Shredder and put paper in nothing happens , if I leave the paper in the shredder after a couple of seconds I can hear a buzzing sound coming from the relay then shortly after that it starts to run ok .

Just a bit more info, measured the voltage to the Relay Coil, at first 7.3v then built up to 18v before motor kicking in, prob would of gone up to nearer to 24v if kept meter on.

Cheers

spike
 

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73's de Edd

Aug 21, 2015
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Sir spike . . . . .
I tend to suspicion that one or all of the the E-caps of C1 or C6 or the C2 ? Black E-cap, located just beside it, might have developed a somewhat drastic drop in their effective capacitance . . . . . . over a period of time.

73's de Edd . . . . .
 
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spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
56
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
56
Sir spike . . . . .
I tend to suspicion that one or all of the the E-caps of C1 or C6 or the C2 ? Black E-cap, located just beside it, might have developed a somewhat drastic drop in their effective capacitance . . . . . . over a period of time.

73's de Edd . . . . .
Hi
Replaced all the 3 Caps, now it does not even come on after a few seconds as before !, any other ideas/checks to do .

cheers
Spike
 

davenn

Moderator
Sep 5, 2009
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14,260
Hi
Replaced all the 3 Caps, now it does not even come on after a few seconds as before !, any other ideas/checks to do .

cheers
Spike


absolutely sure you put the new caps in the right way around ?
 

spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
56
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Messages
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Forward reverse switch ok...??
Hi
Thanks for your reply, not sure what you are saying , are you suggesting to cut out the ir side and short Auto to switch to forward manually ! .

cheers
Spike
 

73's de Edd

Aug 21, 2015
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Sir spike1947 . . . . .

I also wants to knows if you gots all of your E-caps +'s-es-es and -'s-es-es being installed correctly ? ? ? ?
Also forward their capacitances and working voltages.
I see that slide switch as needing to be swung to one extreme side position to have the motor run direction correct for shredding and it being temporarily used in the OTHER extreme position for reverse direction in loosening up / clearing a paper jam . . . .an infrequent situation.
Seems like that CENTER position, as it is now shown in, would have the motor stopped and being inoperative . . . maybe, in that poition for working on a paper jam . . . or else you just unplug the whole machine when working on it.

DESIGN CONCEPT . . .

The block poly caps, blue resistors and zener diodes are used to reduce the AC lines incoming / voltage / power level on down to an expected 24'ish DC volts and possibly some sub level(s) down from that .
The multiple, physically long blue axial leaded resistor units spread the line voltage across a large physical span so no close proximity voltage creep or arc-over would be possible.
Dress that one on the very end so that its case is no longer touching / almost touching its companion to its side.

The very bottom end of your voltage dropping resistors string has a ZD1 for a voltage source that is associated with feeding base bias to the A44 relay driver transistor and introducing some time delay hold associated with C1 and C6 E-caps, until it finally reaches the base of the relay driver transistor via R5-D6-R7.
As best as I can make out from your drawing an LED to photosensor electro mechanical construction **** detects when the paper trash bin is full and triggers the relay to shut down run power until it is emptied.
**** As I best perceive, if the R1- Yelllow IT-R4-D1 and the separate R2 plus its Pale blue or White ??R50? companion, are being that constructed sensors content.

S o o o o o . . .power up to be able to see what level of DC votage is being read across ZD1.Then measure across A44 relay driver transistor C to E to see if that required ~24VDC is there.
If there is being adequate base drive voltage from A44 E to B, the relay should be closed. If that happens to be the chance, then short from E-B with a meter probe and you should hear the relay release.

What is black component 1K ? R? next to D1 . . . Not a resistor ! . . . . possibly being a 1 nf dipped poly cap ?

If the slide switch position, is not the problem . . . the info and conditions geaned from above evaluations, lets us continue.

73's de Edd . . . . .


I have my life all figured out now . . . . . its basic premise is to die young . . . BUT . . . by your making it as late as is absolutely possible.


.
 

spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
56
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
56
Sir spike1947 . . . . .

I also wants to knows if you gots all of your E-caps +'s-es-es and -'s-es-es being installed correctly ? ? ? ?
Also forward their capacitances and working voltages.
I see that slide switch as needing to be swung to one extreme side position to have the motor run direction correct for shredding and it being temporarily used in the OTHER extreme position for reverse direction in loosening up / clearing a paper jam . . . .an infrequent situation.
Seems like that CENTER position, as it is now shown in, would have the motor stopped and being inoperative . . . maybe, in that poition for working on a paper jam . . . or else you just unplug the whole machine when working on it.

DESIGN CONCEPT . . .

The block poly caps, blue resistors and zener diodes are used to reduce the AC lines incoming / voltage / power level on down to an expected 24'ish DC volts and possibly some sub level(s) down from that .
The multiple, physically long blue axial leaded resistor units spread the line voltage across a large physical span so no close proximity voltage creep or arc-over would be possible.
Dress that one on the very end so that its case is no longer touching / almost touching its companion to its side.

The very bottom end of your voltage dropping resistors string has a ZD1 for a voltage source that is associated with feeding base bias to the A44 relay driver transistor and introducing some time delay hold associated with C1 and C6 E-caps, until it finally reaches the base of the relay driver transistor via R5-D6-R7.
As best as I can make out from your drawing an LED to photosensor electro mechanical construction **** detects when the paper trash bin is full and triggers the relay to shut down run power until it is emptied.
**** As I best perceive, if the R1- Yelllow IT-R4-D1 and the separate R2 plus its Pale blue or White ??R50? companion, are being that constructed sensors content.

S o o o o o . . .power up to be able to see what level of DC votage is being read across ZD1.Then measure across A44 relay driver transistor C to E to see if that required ~24VDC is there.
If there is being adequate base drive voltage from A44 E to B, the relay should be closed. If that happens to be the chance, then short from E-B with a meter probe and you should hear the relay release.

What is black component 1K ? R? next to D1 . . . Not a resistor ! . . . . possibly being a 1 nf dipped poly cap ?

If the slide switch position, is not the problem . . . the info and conditions geaned from above evaluations, lets us continue.

73's de Edd . . . . .


I have my life all figured out now . . . . . its basic premise is to die young . . . BUT . . . by your making it as late as is absolutely possible.


.
Hi
Thanks for your time for this reply, very informative , have done what I think a proper schematic( to be judged !) .
ps: the E cap C6 was original 8uf - 50v , but could only get 10uf-63v ! .
cheers
spike
 

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spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
56
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Messages
56
73's De Edd had queries in there you failed to answer.
Just posted a update for the Schematic, Yes have checked position of E caps and are correct, will check the voltages as suggested, at work at the moment back by 12 noon, would of gone straight to the Pub, but are all closed ! .
cheers
Spike
 

spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
56
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
56
Sir spike1947 . . . . .

I also wants to knows if you gots all of your E-caps +'s-es-es and -'s-es-es being installed correctly ? ? ? ?
Also forward their capacitances and working voltages.
I see that slide switch as needing to be swung to one extreme side position to have the motor run direction correct for shredding and it being temporarily used in the OTHER extreme position for reverse direction in loosening up / clearing a paper jam . . . .an infrequent situation.
Seems like that CENTER position, as it is now shown in, would have the motor stopped and being inoperative . . . maybe, in that poition for working on a paper jam . . . or else you just unplug the whole machine when working on it.

DESIGN CONCEPT . . .

The block poly caps, blue resistors and zener diodes are used to reduce the AC lines incoming / voltage / power level on down to an expected 24'ish DC volts and possibly some sub level(s) down from that .
The multiple, physically long blue axial leaded resistor units spread the line voltage across a large physical span so no close proximity voltage creep or arc-over would be possible.
Dress that one on the very end so that its case is no longer touching / almost touching its companion to its side.

The very bottom end of your voltage dropping resistors string has a ZD1 for a voltage source that is associated with feeding base bias to the A44 relay driver transistor and introducing some time delay hold associated with C1 and C6 E-caps, until it finally reaches the base of the relay driver transistor via R5-D6-R7.
As best as I can make out from your drawing an LED to photosensor electro mechanical construction **** detects when the paper trash bin is full and triggers the relay to shut down run power until it is emptied.
**** As I best perceive, if the R1- Yelllow IT-R4-D1 and the separate R2 plus its Pale blue or White ??R50? companion, are being that constructed sensors content.

S o o o o o . . .power up to be able to see what level of DC votage is being read across ZD1.Then measure across A44 relay driver transistor C to E to see if that required ~24VDC is there.
If there is being adequate base drive voltage from A44 E to B, the relay should be closed. If that happens to be the chance, then short from E-B with a meter probe and you should hear the relay release.

What is black component 1K ? R? next to D1 . . . Not a resistor ! . . . . possibly being a 1 nf dipped poly cap ?

If the slide switch position, is not the problem . . . the info and conditions geaned from above evaluations, lets us continue.

73's de Edd . . . . .


I have my life all figured out now . . . . . its basic premise is to die young . . . BUT . . . by your making it as late as is absolutely possible.


.
Not sure what you mean " What is black component 1K ? R? next to D1 . . . Not a resistor ! " could you explain a bit more so that I can get the info you are wanting for to help me .
cheers
Spike
 

spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
56
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
56
73's De Edd had queries in there you failed to answer.

OK, done the measurements you were asking me to do as follows:
Voltage across ZD1 = 3.81vdc , voltage across Transistor points C to E = 32.4vdc , tried to short and listen for relay dropping out but no sound, checked voltage across relay winding just 32mV.
I think that is all you asked of me ! .
cheers
Spike
 

spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
56
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
56
What about the slide switch....????

Hi
Thanks again for your patience and your time/help really appreciate it, checked out the contacts of the switch and operation and is ok ! .
cheers
Spike
 

Bluejets

Oct 5, 2014
6,921
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Messages
6,921
Fine but....last time you tried to run it you said it would not go anymore......so the point is.....was the switch in the right place to run, either forward or reverse............NOT centre position.
 

spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
56
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
56
Fine but....last time you tried to run it you said it would not go anymore......so the point is.....was the switch in the right place to run, either forward or reverse............NOT centre position.
Hi
Switch is in the auto position when testing , slide far left as in the schematic, middle position is “off” and slide far right is “ reverse” the reverse works the motor ok , just nothing happening in the Auto position.
Cheers
Spike
 

73's de Edd

Aug 21, 2015
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3,622
Sir spike1947

Thankee-thankee-thankee . . . for the feedsacks . . .DEE-lis-cous !
Now, how they define your relevant situation.
The presence of the higher voltage supply equates with its being unloaded, if the A44 relay driver transistor was conducting and presenting the relay coil winding as loading, this meekly sourced supply votage would then pull on down closer to the coils voltage spec.
The lower voltage supply presence and its value is telling us that its zener regulator diode was not shorted and its voltage value is of such magnitude, as to initially feed the IR LED emitter and still be able to initially take the loss of R5 and pass voltage on down thru series elements D6 ( But NOT in your drawn backwards polarity manner, in which you had it installed ) and then thru R7 and into the base of The A44 to then drive it into conduction.
BUT lets backtrack, where you should be seeing the WHOLE circutry of a basic shredder being accomplished with only the top left corners content, with one exclusion, in one of your photos I see a Micro Switch being used, but not being in either of your schematics.
I expect it to be shown as installed in your power flow loop, such that it will close its contacts the instant that a shred item is being inserted in.
In my using your initial combinational pictorial drawing / schematic, that bottom left corner area didn't clarify too well . ..except . . only the "Paper full sensor" note.
That clued me in that they were not using a physical sampling of the fullness of the shredder collection bin in order to simply trip another Micro Switch.
Instead, the use of optical sensing detection, wherein a light path from LED to a physically spaced apart phototransistor is dependent upon that path being blocked as the shred bin reaches full capacity.
Thereby, I then knew what to sort out of that amalgam of cryptic component drawings, the newest drawing confirmed my initial query of " black rectangular IR " as its being a photodiode.
As well as the " Pale blue or White ??R50? " as being a LED.

In consulting the complete new schematic . . . .
Initially make a step by step path from the units AC power input to the final AC ground by my drawn in BLUE arrow paths. Any open circuitpoint stops motor operation. * Take note that I placed your relays contact as now being CLOSED with an unenergized coil or OPEN upon the relays activation.*

That then lets one see that the ZD1 derived low votage supply and its auxillary C1 filter capacitor initially feeds IR emitter diode and simultaneously directs a reduced supply voltage via R5 on down towards D6 ( its not installed "sdrawkcab" anymore !) to pass on thru it and the final R7 path in order to then get into the base of A44.
BUT WHOAH !, back at that NOW illuminated IR phototransistor, we find its now LOW resistance is gobbling up all of that drive voltage and sending it direct to ground.
UNLESS the electromechanical manner in which they have chose to detect a full shred bin, then blocks the light path, such that the now changed into VERY HIGH resistance of the photodetector lets the base drive for the A44 pass on down the path. ( Excepting a bit of time delay / hang time introduced by C2 downroute .)
Then, finally, with base drive present at A44, it closes power relay K1 via its collector and OPENS its NORMALLY CLOSED relay contacts to disrupt the shredder motors power loop and shut down shredding operations until the shred bin is emptied.

And what I REEEEELY think now . . . .if those electronics aspects check out . . . is that you probably are going to find my notations of having worn down loosey-goosey- wobbledey -obbledey motor brushes as being your units problem.

Thaaaaaassssssit . . . . .

Schematic Re Draw . . . . .

Shredder-Schematic-Re-Draw.png


https://i.ibb.co/Ws9dz47/Shredder-Schematic-Re-Draw.png


73's de Edd . . . . .



The brain is a wonderful organ; it starts working the very moment you get up in the morning and doesn't stop until you get to work.


.
 
Last edited:

spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
56
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
56
Sir spike1947

Thankee-thankee-thankee . . . for the feedsacks . . .DEE-lis-cous !
Now, how they define your relevant situation.
The presence of the higher voltage supply equates with its being unloaded, if the A44 relay driver transistor was conducting and presenting the relay coil winding as loading, this meekly sourced supply votage would then pull on down closer to the coils voltage spec.
The lower voltage supply presence and its value is telling us that its zener regulator diode was not shorted and its voltage value is of such magnitude, as to initially feed the IR LED emitter and still be able to initially take the loss of R5 and pass voltage on down thru series elements D6 ( But NOT in your drawn backwards polarity manner, in which you had it installed ) and then thru R7 and into the base of The A44 to then drive it into conduction.
BUT lets backtrack, where you should be seeing the WHOLE circutry of a basic shredder being accomplished with only the top left corners content, with one exclusion, in one of your photos I see a Micro Switch being used, but not being in either of your schematics.
I expect it to be shown as installed in your power flow loop, such that it will close its contacts the instant that a shred item is being inserted in.
In my using your initial combinational pictorial drawing / schematic, that bottom left corner area didn't clarify too well . ..except . . only the "Paper full sensor" note.
That clued me in that they were not using a physical sampling of the fullness of the shredder collection bin in order to simply trip another Micro Switch.
Instead, the use of optical sensing detection, wherein a light path from LED to a physically spaced apart phototransistor is dependent upon that path being blocked as the shred bin reaches full capacity.
Thereby, I then knew what to sort out of that amalgam of cryptic component drawings, the newest drawing confirmed my initial query of " black rectangular IR " as its being a photodiode.
As well as the " Pale blue or White ??R50? " as being a LED.

In consulting the complete new schematic . . . .
Initially make a step by step path from the units AC power input to the final AC ground by my drawn in BLUE arrow paths. Any open circuitpoint stops motor operation. * Take note that I placed your relays contact as now being CLOSED with an unenergized coil or OPEN upon the relays activation.*

That then lets one see that the ZD1 derived low votage supply and its auxillary C1 filter capacitor initially feeds IR emitter diode and simultaneously directs a reduced supply voltage via R5 on down towards D6 ( its not installed "sdrawkcab" anymore !) to pass on thru it and the final R7 path in order to then get into the base of A44.
BUT WHOAH !, back at that NOW illuminated IR phototransistor, we find its now LOW resistance is gobbling up all of that drive voltage and sending it direct to ground.
UNLESS the electromechanical manner in which they have chose to detect a full shred bin, then blocks the light path, such that the now changed into VERY HIGH resistance of the photodetector lets the base drive for the A44 pass on down the path. ( Excepting a bit of time delay / hang time introduced by C2 downroute .)
Then, finally, with base drive present at A44, it closes power relay K1 via its collector and OPENS its NORMALLY CLOSED relay contacts to disrupt the shredder motors power loop and shut down shredding operations until the shred bin is emptied.

And what I REEEEELY think now . . . .if those electronics aspects check out . . . is that you probably are going to find my notations of having worn down loosey-goosey- wobbledey -obbledey motor brushes as being your units problem.

Thaaaaaassssssit . . . . .

Schematic Re Draw . . . . .

Shredder-Schematic-Re-Draw.png


https://i.ibb.co/Ws9dz47/Shredder-Schematic-Re-Draw.png


73's de Edd . . . . .



The brain is a wonderful organ; it starts working the very moment you get up in the morning and doesn't stop until you get to work.


.

Hi
Thanks for your reply, the motor brushes are ok, it runs in reverse fine !, and if I bypass the relay it runs forward ok .

Just a note I may have the A44 transistor the wrong way round on the drawing, it is difficult to see which way , has I am looking at it on the underside of the board and the transistor front ( flat part) is facing away from the contacts looking at it from the top .
cheers
Spike
 
Last edited:

spike1947

Feb 4, 2016
56
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
56
Hi there
Also the ir emitter that feeds the photoelectric sensor is not lit , checked with a ir detector ! .

cheers
Spike
 
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