### Network

O

#### okbran

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,
I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the
regular 12V car battery.
Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with
number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand
the definition of CCA and CA but,
My question is:
1. What about the average output current? What's the common output
current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the
current output on these car batteries?
2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current
rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery
gives 13A output current?
3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything

I would really appreciate your feedback.
Thank you,

M

#### [email protected]

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,
I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the
regular 12V car battery.
Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with
number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand
the definition of CCA and CA but,
My question is:
1. What about the average output current? What's the common output
current(A) for a 12V car battery?

current draw depends almost entirely on the load
How come they don't label the
current output on these car batteries?
2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current
rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery
gives 13A output current?

then 13A flows thru the cables, presumably. Nothing else happens,
cables have a fair amount of margin in their ratings. If you ran 130A
through it it'd melt.
3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything
I would really appreciate your feedback.
Thank you,

NT

D

#### Dave Plowman (News)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi,
I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the
regular 12V car battery.
Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with
number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand
the definition of CCA and CA but,
My question is:
1. What about the average output current? What's the common output
current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the
current output on these car batteries?

There is no 'average' output current - the current depends on the load
which will vary according to what electrics are in use. But of course with
the engine running the alternator supplies all the current needed for
pretty well all the time.

However, the other figure given with batteries is the capacity in
amp/hours. Since this is measured over a constant time regardless of
actual capacity means the current drawn during measurement will vary.
2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current
rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery
gives 13A output current?

Same as with any other power source - if the cable is too small it will
allow too much voltage drop at best and at worse burn out.
3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything

Yes. See above. You need to use cable rated at the maximum current you're
going to draw.

C

#### Captain Midnight

Jan 1, 1970
0
okbran said:
Hi,
I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the
regular 12V car battery.
Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with
number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand
the definition of CCA and CA but,
My question is:
1. What about the average output current? What's the common output
current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the
current output on these car batteries?
2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current
rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery
gives 13A output current?
3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything

I would really appreciate your feedback.
Thank you,

Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery
will take 14 hours to charge at one amp. Starter motor current is ~50amp.
Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating.
They're rated this way mostly to keep them from being over charged. A car
battery is used for starting only so cranking current is all that's really
needed. Theirs no good reason to short either type battery. A 10A rated
cable means it's rated to carry 10A, not that 10A will flow when shorting
across a battery.

If you want to now what happens, hold the ends of paper clip on to a fresh

M

#### Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Captain said:
Motorcycle batteries are rated in Amp/HRS. A fully discharged 14A/H battery
will take 14 hours to charge at one amp.

No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to
the rated discharge voltage. It will take more than 14 hours to
energy. Actually, the lower the discharge rate, the less of the stored
energy is lost as heat.

Starter motor current is ~50amp.

For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the
engine over.

Obviously they can put out much greater current than their A/H rating.

Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts
during starting. Extended cranking, or a short circuit causes the
battery to generate a lot of heat. That can either cause it to explode,
or to melt the internal lead connections between the individual cells.

They're rated this way mostly to keep them from being over charged. A car
battery is used for starting only so cranking current is all that's really
needed. Theirs no good reason to short either type battery. A 10A rated
cable means it's rated to carry 10A, not that 10A will flow when shorting
across a battery.

If you want to now what happens, hold the ends of paper clip on to a fresh

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

M

#### Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
okbran said:
Hi,
I don't know much about batteries and I am simply curious about the
regular 12V car battery.
Everytime I go to the store, I see all these batteries labeled with
number of Cold Crankcing Ampere or Cranking Ampere, etc. I understand
the definition of CCA and CA but,
My question is:
1. What about the average output current? What's the common output
current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the
current output on these car batteries?
2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current
rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery
gives 13A output current?

Rated at 10 amps for what application? it depends on if its wound on
a transformer, in a bundle or conduit, the type of insulation,
acceptable voltage drop and duty cycle, along with the temperature.

3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything

Worst case is when the insulation has a flash fire and hot copper is
spattered everywhere. For that kind of current I would use #1 welding
cable. The whole idea of jumper cables is to start the engine quickly.
The battery is discharged, and you still need the full current the
starter demands. That means that you need as low of a resistance
connection between the two batteries. It also helps to let the dead
battery be charged for a couple minutes before you try to start the
engine. That allows the dead battery's terminal voltage to rise a bit,
and reduce its demand while cranking.

I would really appreciate your feedback.
Thank you,

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

M

#### [email protected]

Jan 1, 1970
0
Captain Midnight wrote:
No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to
the rated discharge voltage.

Ah rating is only correct for a 20hr discharge. Faster discharge will
give lower than proportional capacity.
It will take more than 14 hours to
energy.

Charge time depends entirely on charge rate.

For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the
engine over.

Fiat 500? Trabant?

NT

D

#### DaveC

Jan 1, 1970
0
1. What about the average output current? What's the common output
current(A) for a 12V car battery? How come they don't label the
current output on these car batteries?

They are rated with current output. Current is described in Amps. CCA is
cold-cranking Amps. There is no "average" current. If you want to light a
small 12v bulb with a battery, you'll get a few tenths of an amp output. If
you want to crank an engine's starting motor, you'll get a few tens or
hundred of amps, depending on the motor. The battery will supply a trickle or
a flood of current depending on what you connect to it. That's true of all
batteries and why you have to be careful what you connect to one.
2. If I have a jumper cable made of 16AWG copper wire with current
rating of 10A. What happen if I connect the jumper cable to a battery
gives 13A output current?

If the cable is too small for the current you need to supply, it will
probably get warm (or hot!) and the voltage will drop below 12 volts. It's
always best to use a cable that's bigger than required for the job.
3. Similar to question 2, if the cranking ampere is 540, will anything

Thank you,

You're welcome.

J

#### James Sweet

Jan 1, 1970
0
For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the
engine over.

Well my car with a relatively small 2.3L 4 cylinder engine has a starter
motor rated at 1.4KW, so well over 100A. I'm not sure if this is typical
but the starter is powerful enough to move the car if I put it in gear
and turn the key. I suspect larger engines typically have even more
powerful starters.

C

#### Captain Midnight

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael A. Terrell said:
No, a 14 Amp hour rated battery will deliver 1 amp for 14 hours, to
the rated discharge voltage. It will take more than 14 hours to
energy. Actually, the lower the discharge rate, the less of the stored
energy is lost as heat.

For a motorcycle? Some cars don't use that much current to turn the
engine over.

Yes, that is the CA/CCA rating, and it is for very short bursts
during starting. Extended cranking, or a short circuit causes the
battery to generate a lot of heat. That can either cause it to explode,
or to melt the internal lead connections between the individual cells.

No. A typical car battery is 50A/H. Even a small car battery will be rated
300CCA. It's not the same rating. Problems can happen to the battery from
it's over use but the biggest reason to not use it for long is to keep from
burning up the starter.

D

#### Dave Plowman (News)

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well my car with a relatively small 2.3L 4 cylinder engine has a starter
motor rated at 1.4KW, so well over 100A. I'm not sure if this is typical
but the starter is powerful enough to move the car if I put it in gear
and turn the key. I suspect larger engines typically have even more
powerful starters.

The current needed depends on several things - notably how much friction
in the engine which varies between cold and hot.

M

#### Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Captain said:
No. A typical car battery is 50A/H. Even a small car battery will be rated
300CCA. It's not the same rating. Problems can happen to the battery from
it's over use but the biggest reason to not use it for long is to keep from
burning up the starter.

I state that the CA/CCA is higher than the A/H rating, and you say
that's not true. Interesting.

BTW, have you ever seen the damage done to a vehicle when a car
battery explodes and sprays acid all over the engine compartment? I've
seen several, here in Central Florida. One exploded while parked in the
hot sun, and hadn't been used in over 8 hours.

A starter will be damaged faster by low voltage, or excessive voltage
drop in the solenoid and all of the cables. I had to install #1 welding
cable on the customized 389 8 cylinder engine in my '66 GTO that had
over 220 pounds compression. When the engine was warm, it drew over 400
amps from the battery, but only for a second or so. If it didn't start
you waited ten seconds to let everything cool. That rarely ever
happened.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

M

#### Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Dave Plowman (News) said:
The current needed depends on several things - notably how much friction
in the engine which varies between cold and hot.

I have never looked at the specs on the electrical system on a bike.
Years ago any car starter that drew over 70 amps, no load was considered

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

D

#### David Brodbeck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael said:
BTW, have you ever seen the damage done to a vehicle when a car
battery explodes and sprays acid all over the engine compartment? I've
seen several, here in Central Florida. One exploded while parked in the
hot sun, and hadn't been used in over 8 hours.

My car obviously had a battery explosion, or at least a severe boil-over
at some point in its life. The paint is gone off the front bumper cover
in a spatter pattern in front of the battery area, and the battery tray
itself is nearly rusted out in spite of the rest of the car being rust-free.

Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a
plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge
for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw
shrapnel a foot or two on either side.

K

#### Ken Weitzel

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael said:
I state that the CA/CCA is higher than the A/H rating, and you say
that's not true. Interesting.

BTW, have you ever seen the damage done to a vehicle when a car
battery explodes and sprays acid all over the engine compartment? I've
seen several, here in Central Florida. One exploded while parked in the
hot sun, and hadn't been used in over 8 hours.

A starter will be damaged faster by low voltage, or excessive voltage
drop in the solenoid and all of the cables. I had to install #1 welding
cable on the customized 389 8 cylinder engine in my '66 GTO that had
over 220 pounds compression. When the engine was warm, it drew over 400
amps from the battery, but only for a second or so. If it didn't start
you waited ten seconds to let everything cool. That rarely ever
happened.

Hi...

I respectfully submit that CA/CCA have absolutely nothing in common with
A/H. Apples and oranges.

Take care.

Ken

H

#### Homer J Simpson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a
plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge
for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw
shrapnel a foot or two on either side.

Froze up?

M

#### Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ken said:
Hi...

I respectfully submit that CA/CCA have absolutely nothing in common with
A/H. Apples and oranges.

Take care.

Ken

Please show me where I said that it did. I simply agreed that the
CA/CCA was a higher current than the battery was normally used at.

The A/H rating is simply a way to state the amount of stored
electrical energy that you can expect at a specified discharge current
and temperature for that battery, when it is in good condition.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

D

#### David Brodbeck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Homer said:
Froze up?

Probably. To say that the battery chargers in RV power converters are
often poorly designed would be, perhaps, too kind.

M

#### Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
David said:
My car obviously had a battery explosion, or at least a severe boil-over
at some point in its life. The paint is gone off the front bumper cover
in a spatter pattern in front of the battery area, and the battery tray
itself is nearly rusted out in spite of the rest of the car being rust-free.

My last car had pinholes in that corner of the hood The battery
exploded when my Dad owned it. The '79 Dodge 1/2 Ton Limited Edition
pickup truck I want to restore has damage. The previous owner was a
hack mechanic and caused the battery to explode. The only real fix I've
found is to braze the holes shut, then grind down both surfaces, if
possible. In enclosed area there is rusty slag on the surface, but it
doesn't cause any problems, and can't be seen. The ford ranger I'm
driving now has damage, but i don't know what happened to it.

Had one explode on a travel trailer once, too. The battery was in a
plastic battery box on the front A-frame and had been on trickle charge
for about three months. This was in the middle of winter. It threw
shrapnel a foot or two on either side.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

D

#### David Brodbeck

Jan 1, 1970
0
Michael said:
My last car had pinholes in that corner of the hood The battery
exploded when my Dad owned it.

Oddly, the hood on mine is OK. This suggests one of two things:

- The battery explosion was the result of a collision, and the hood was
replaced. I don't think it's that, because the cowl area near the
battery is rusty, and any collision damage would have affected it, too.

- The battery explosion happened with the hood up. Jump-starting
accident, maybe?

Another thing that puzzles me is the current battery has a tendency to
weep liquid out of the cell covers. Normally I'd assume this was
boilover due to overcharging, but the charging voltage is normal.

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