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Removing Components for Testing versus On Board Testing

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Martaine2005

May 12, 2015
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That's the POV I follow.

Actually I like "Particle Physics" and wonder why as electrons are one of several Leptons, why they are the only ones used
for "real world" work (if it is indeed truly real) like with electricity and electronics..(neutrinos excluded I suppose).

I initially asked some questions about getting a job in electronics, the pay, working environment etc., but decided it's not for me.
Still, I am exploring (obviously) the DIY aspect of repairing devices at home, and what it takes which seems to hit a sensitive
personal nerve with some people here who seem to see themselves as gatekeepers of the golden fleece.

Excuse me I have to get back to watching some youtube videos on electronics and brain surgery (informational only).


You may find better help and answers to your impossible questions on www.electronicspoints.com. They have crystal balls and are a great bunch of volunteers willing to guide you.

Martin
 

Delta Prime

Jul 29, 2020
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Would'nt it be better to test the components on the board without desoldering them?
And how would you do that anyway if they are embedded in the circuit operation
and are being affected by all the other components on the board?
There are many aspects to troubleshooting and repairing electronic circuits it is sometimes called "organized chaos".
Demands a strong understanding of the principles, concepts & techniques.
A good electronic troubleshooter will have a strong physics background (not a prerequisite... just my opinion).
Repair & related diagnostic & test
activity require a skill set beyond a formal education.
Hobbyist and tinkerers are exposed to rudimentary repair training & cannot be considered to be skilled electronic technicians or electronic design engineer.
Repair, particularly soldering,
requires innate dexterity & eye-hand coordination that can only be acquired through practice.
Furthermore, these skills require practice in order to maintain proficiency.
Condition of being proficient through systematic exercise (Organized,logical thinking) understand the principles, concepts, (able to grasp cause and effect).
Continuous exercise of a profession by a professional.
KVL, KCL, Thevinen-Norton, Ohms, superposition, linearity, time invariance,substitution, bisection,
Millers theorem, De Morgan's theorem etc.
All the laws, all the theorems.
Principles or fundamental laws that are precise and never change.
A comprehensive & fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption. The laws or facts of nature underlying the working of an artificial device, are to be used as you use your right and left hand. This way you can make assumptions before any attempt at circuit troubleshooting is performed. You must be able to learn from your failure (which is different than making mistakes), that's what gives you experience and intuition.
An assumption is taking something to be true without formal proof. Assumptions in analog & digital circuit troubleshooting or circuit design are used for simplifying the analysis or design.
The goal of an assumption is to
separate the essential information from the nonessential information
of a problem.
Formulating the assumption to simplify the problem without eliminating the essential
information.
Formulating what might be wrong based on the investigation (hypothesis).
Investigation – gathering facts about the problem.
Testing the hypothesis to see if it is correct.
In many respects, troubleshooting is very similar to the work of a
detective.
At work they call me
"Sherlock Ohm's".
 

narkeleptk

Oct 3, 2019
74
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I looked at some basic youtubes about testing components to see if they are bad.
The idea was to unsolder one end of the compnent to take it out of the circuit to
test it. That seems like a very cumbersome way to test if there are hundreds of components.

Would'nt it be better to test the components on the board without desoldering them?
And how would you do that anyway if they are embedded in the circuit operation
and are being affected by all the other components on the board?
For me usually its :
>Visual Inspection
>Basic in-circuit testing working backwards from the problem
>Remove component and test when looks/tests suspiciously if needed
 

Bluejets

Oct 5, 2014
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>Basic in-circuit testing working backwards from the problem
Don't know why you arrive at this conclusion..............which way is "backwards"..??
At that time one is assuming "the problem" is not known for one thing.
Doesn't make any sense.
 

HAROLDYOUNG

Jul 15, 2023
88
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88
There are many aspects to troubleshooting and repairing electronic circuits it is sometimes called "organized chaos".
Demands a strong understanding of the principles, concepts & techniques.
A good electronic troubleshooter will have a strong physics background (not a prerequisite... just my opinion).
Repair & related diagnostic & test
activity require a skill set beyond a formal education.
Hobbyist and tinkerers are exposed to rudimentary repair training & cannot be considered to be skilled electronic technicians or electronic design engineer.
Repair, particularly soldering,
requires innate dexterity & eye-hand coordination that can only be acquired through practice.
Furthermore, these skills require practice in order to maintain proficiency.
Condition of being proficient through systematic exercise (Organized,logical thinking) understand the principles, concepts, (able to grasp cause and effect).
Continuous exercise of a profession by a professional.
KVL, KCL, Thevinen-Norton, Ohms, superposition, linearity, time invariance,substitution, bisection,
Millers theorem, De Morgan's theorem etc.
All the laws, all the theorems.
Principles or fundamental laws that are precise and never change.
A comprehensive & fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption. The laws or facts of nature underlying the working of an artificial device, are to be used as you use your right and left hand. This way you can make assumptions before any attempt at circuit troubleshooting is performed. You must be able to learn from your failure (which is different than making mistakes), that's what gives you experience and intuition.
An assumption is taking something to be true without formal proof. Assumptions in analog & digital circuit troubleshooting or circuit design are used for simplifying the analysis or design.
The goal of an assumption is to
separate the essential information from the nonessential information
of a problem.
Formulating the assumption to simplify the problem without eliminating the essential
information.
Formulating what might be wrong based on the investigation (hypothesis).
Investigation – gathering facts about the problem.
Testing the hypothesis to see if it is correct.
In many respects, troubleshooting is very similar to the work of a
detective.
At work they call me
"Sherlock Ohm's".
All wonderful for those who want to be electronic technicians (or even exceed that skill level) or engineers.
All I'm talking about is DIY home repair of electronics devices up to a knowledge and time limit limit that requires
professional help or otherwise throw the thing away and buy a new one. Youtube videos supply that level of DIY knowledge
and even then if it is going to take up too much time in a day, forget it.
No one gets TVs fixed any more. Most people just buy a new one. No one fixes their smart phones (except electronics fanatics)
they just buy a new one. Even computer techs at Best Buy are just swapping out boards. Before Frys went out of business the
average person with any common sense and intelligence could buy parts and make their own computer.
DIY home electronics repair. That's all I'm talking about. If I have spare time I'd rather read about the atomic structure of matter and why other Leptons are not used for work other than electrons. After I had enough of that I'll put the book (or on-line article) down and water the grass.
 

kellys_eye

Jun 25, 2010
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All I know is that those who spend all their time questioning and discussing what they'd LIKE to do never actually get around to doing anything worthwhile or practical.

Step away form the keyboard and actually TRY doing it.....
 

HAROLDYOUNG

Jul 15, 2023
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All I know is that those who spend all their time questioning and discussing what they'd LIKE to do never actually get around to doing anything worthwhile or practical.

Step away form the keyboard and actually TRY doing it.....
Thanks for the advice. It doesn't really apply to me and my specific situation, but thanks anyway.
What can be defined as "practical" is a spectrum not necessarily bound by your POV.
 

narkeleptk

Oct 3, 2019
74
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Messages
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Don't know why you arrive at this conclusion..............which way is "backwards"..??
At that time one is assuming "the problem" is not known for one thing.
Doesn't make any sense.
I apologize if my methods or wording do not make sense to you. I wasn't really trying to be all that specific.
My main point was: What is it suppose to do that its not doing? Now work backwards (or forward!) into the circuit from that point.

"assuming "the problem" is not known"
Do people really just randomly open electronics and look to see if they may or may not have problems for no reason?
I would assume people start working on something when it displays an undesirable issue. e.g. not turning on, not charging, not driving a motor. etc....
 
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kellys_eye

Jun 25, 2010
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What can be defined as "practical" is a spectrum not necessarily bound by your POV.
My POV on 'practical' is actually DOING something rather than endlessly discussing it in what seems to be a manner of trying to shorten the learning process or bypass it by some mysterious way. It can't be done.

Either learn the theory and apply it or actually DO it and gain the experience over years of practise. There are no shortcuts.
 

HAROLDYOUNG

Jul 15, 2023
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My POV on 'practical' is actually DOING something rather than endlessly discussing it in what seems to be a manner of trying to shorten the learning process or bypass it by some mysterious way. It can't be done.

Either learn the theory and apply it or actually DO it and gain the experience over years of practise. There are no shortcuts.

Excuse me for asking questions and initiating a discussion on the subject that could possibly be of interest to other
people exploring the same path in electronics, elementary as it may be.

Isn't that what this Forum is for, to ask questions and explore possibilities concerning various paths and applications
of electronics, from the beginner to the expert level? I'm sorry for asking similar questions from different angles to get
a wider perspective on the issue.

I didn't realize that I had to follow your guidelines?
 

kellys_eye

Jun 25, 2010
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I didn't realize that I had to follow your guidelines?
No one has to take anything I say with any credence whatsoever. I offer my decades of experience 'free of charge' for those who care to take advantage of such hard-gained knowledge. People can feel free to ignore it and continue in ignorance if they wish.

Excuse me for asking questions and initiating a discussion on the subject that could possibly be of interest to other
people exploring the same path in electronics, elementary as it may be.
No apology necessary - if you browse this forum you will see many, many other valuable contributions from other forum members - with records of thousands and thousands of posts containing 'free' advice - who also had to take the 'application of theory' or 'years of experience' route in order to be able to make such contributions. We have no axe to grind with anyone of any level of experience (or not) and treat everyone with respect - until they stretch our patience with repeated questions that appear to show their lack of understanding or a plain refusal to acknowledge or act on the advice given.

I'm sorry for asking similar questions from different angles to get
a wider perspective on the issue.
That isn't usually a problem except where we run out of angles to respond - and yet the questions keep coming. This thread must have run its course a loooong time ago (not your first approach on the subject matter either and, IIRC, we had the same results last time).

There does come a point in deliberation where the contributors start to realise that they're on a hiding-to-nothing and further advice, no matter how appropriate or valid, always seems to get tossed aside. It starts to become wearing......insulting even. I've had better outcomes from discussions with children who have the well-known ability to constantly ask 'but why....' after every answer given. I'd hoped an adults response would have been more appreciative and have some semblance of critical thought without having to actually spell it out. Which we actually have done.
 

H2814D

Nov 4, 2017
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Excuse me for asking questions and initiating a discussion on the subject that could possibly be of interest to other
people exploring the same path in electronics, elementary as it may be.

Isn't that what this Forum is for, to ask questions and explore possibilities concerning various paths and applications
of electronics, from the beginner to the expert level? I'm sorry for asking similar questions from different angles to get
a wider perspective on the issue.

I didn't realize that I had to follow your guidelines?
Mr Young. I am a perfect example of what it sounds like you are trying to become, which may be just a little bit more versed in electronics component testing and electronics troubleshooting. Nothing "career-wise," but just curiosity at this point and possibly the feelings of accomplishment.

I started doing my own electronics stuff about 15 years ago, when I had a computer monitor start acting up. I began a bit of research, and determined others had had the same issue. The entire problem came down to a couple of electrolytic capacitors in the power supply section of the circuit board. I thought electronics components would be wildly expensive, based on electronics technician repair costs. I was astonished to find out that wasn't the case, and that electronics components are very inexpensive. I replaced those capacitors for a grand total of about $2 back then and fired it back up. The monitor was back in business. In fact, I still use it today and am using it right now to write this. It was manufactured in March of 2006, based on the Information Tag on the back. A Samsung 244T.

My success with the monitor led me on a path that has since given me much more experience in electronics repair. Not near as much as what the guys here have, and I will never be at that level, but this is the place I come to when I have questions. I can usually get the information I need to keep trying to fix whatever it is I am working on, or to take a suggestion from someone to just "bin it." I have a hard time taking that latter advice, though, because I am looking for success, not defeat. I don't always win though. And I don't know if all of my posts are still here or not, but I have been back here quite a bit for things that challenge me. From more complex switch mode power supplies, to ac to dc power supplies like USB phone chargers, to radio control transmitters, to car electronics components, and a lot of other things in between. I have tried and fixed a whole bunch of things so far. In some cases, I even feel confident enough to provide others that ask questions here with some limited guidance. I make sure, however, to not get over my skill level when I do that.

In the beginning, my troubleshooting skills and the equipment I had to test things were minimal. Since then, I have amassed quite a few electronic components and testers and have probably thousands of resistors, capacitors, diodes, LED's, transistors, Triacs, Diacs, Mosfets, etc., because once I come across something I need but don't have, I usually get a compliment of them in various sizes "for the next time."

I guess the point of my reply is to assure you the guys here are quite knowledgeable about what they offer to us (for free), and sometimes their senses of humor or their bluntness may not be taken as they intended. Sometimes, though, it is, when it gets "pushed." It appears you have come here seeking knowledge, so let them give it to you. Even I am surprised at the lengths they will go to let you and I and others know that.

Your first posting in this thread had to do with testing components without removing them from the circuit, and the time involved in doing a lot of them. In most cases, the problem lies in a specific portion of the board, and only a few components need to be checked, that is why one of the "gurus" mentioned "experience" when knowing what to test. I don't think you ever let us know what you were working on. Did you? If not, why not? Take a chance and see. Tell us what it is by make and model number, take good pictures of the circuit board(s), tell us what it is or is not doing, and see what happens. It doesn't cost you anything but a bit of your time, and it may lead to something like what I have found to be, and that is a hobbyist style interest in electronics components and repair and you may also get whatever it is you are talking about fixed, rather than adding it to the landfill. Lets see what you have. :)
 

HAROLDYOUNG

Jul 15, 2023
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Mr Young. I am a perfect example of what it sounds like you are trying to become, which may be just a little bit more versed in electronics component testing and electronics troubleshooting. Nothing "career-wise," but just curiosity at this point and possibly the feelings of accomplishment.

I started doing my own electronics stuff about 15 years ago, when I had a computer monitor start acting up. I began a bit of research, and determined others had had the same issue. The entire problem came down to a couple of electrolytic capacitors in the power supply section of the circuit board. I thought electronics components would be wildly expensive, based on electronics technician repair costs. I was astonished to find out that wasn't the case, and that electronics components are very inexpensive. I replaced those capacitors for a grand total of about $2 back then and fired it back up. The monitor was back in business. In fact, I still use it today and am using it right now to write this. It was manufactured in March of 2006, based on the Information Tag on the back. A Samsung 244T.

My success with the monitor led me on a path that has since given me much more experience in electronics repair. Not near as much as what the guys here have, and I will never be at that level, but this is the place I come to when I have questions. I can usually get the information I need to keep trying to fix whatever it is I am working on, or to take a suggestion from someone to just "bin it." I have a hard time taking that latter advice, though, because I am looking for success, not defeat. I don't always win though. And I don't know if all of my posts are still here or not, but I have been back here quite a bit for things that challenge me. From more complex switch mode power supplies, to ac to dc power supplies like USB phone chargers, to radio control transmitters, to car electronics components, and a lot of other things in between. I have tried and fixed a whole bunch of things so far. In some cases, I even feel confident enough to provide others that ask questions here with some limited guidance. I make sure, however, to not get over my skill level when I do that.

In the beginning, my troubleshooting skills and the equipment I had to test things were minimal. Since then, I have amassed quite a few electronic components and testers and have probably thousands of resistors, capacitors, diodes, LED's, transistors, Triacs, Diacs, Mosfets, etc., because once I come across something I need but don't have, I usually get a compliment of them in various sizes "for the next time."

I guess the point of my reply is to assure you the guys here are quite knowledgeable about what they offer to us (for free), and sometimes their senses of humor or their bluntness may not be taken as they intended. Sometimes, though, it is, when it gets "pushed." It appears you have come here seeking knowledge, so let them give it to you. Even I am surprised at the lengths they will go to let you and I and others know that.

Your first posting in this thread had to do with testing components without removing them from the circuit, and the time involved in doing a lot of them. In most cases, the problem lies in a specific portion of the board, and only a few components need to be checked, that is why one of the "gurus" mentioned "experience" when knowing what to test. I don't think you ever let us know what you were working on. Did you? If not, why not? Take a chance and see. Tell us what it is by make and model number, take good pictures of the circuit board(s), tell us what it is or is not doing, and see what happens. It doesn't cost you anything but a bit of your time, and it may lead to something like what I have found to be, and that is a hobbyist style interest in electronics components and repair and you may also get whatever it is you are talking about fixed, rather than adding it to the landfill. Lets see what you have. :)
Good Post.

I'm only interested in achieving the same skill level as say a DIY plumber. For example I've relaced the entire under sink plumbing system in the kitchen including, dishwasher connections, disposal, valves of several types, sink, and faucet assembly with zero experience
just to save the high cost of hiring a plumber to do it I just used common sense. That's the level of skill I am asking about here on this board concerning electronics repair on a DIY basis after looking at what it takes to become an electronics tech---not interested. Evidently asking too many questions here is forbidden and will result in scorn of a certain degree or you will be told to consult a "crystal ball" for answers and compare you to less than a small child who asks "why why"? :rolleyes:

I've learned in some college classes I have taken on other subjects that one way to learn efficiently is the "spiral" method where you go around the core of a particular subject (i.e. repeat it) and increase the size of the spiral. Evidently that way of learning is scoffed at here. Nevertheless, I'm OK with it and if that "insults" some people here, I'll take that into consideration and adjust accordingly and try to disregard the "insults" that have been leveled at me as par for the course.

I'm not interested in eventually becoming a hobbyist like you mainly because of time factors. I don't have that much spare time.
Anything over my head I wouldn't attempt to fix. As far as electrical knowledge, the average understanding in society in modern times
about electrical devices even among non-professionals is adequately high enough, I think, to attempt some DIY repair. That is all I was sourcing here.

I don't have any specific item or project I'm working on. I have just been inquiring about the possibility of being that DIY person, that's all.
I have a couple multimeters I bought, which I know how to use, and I also know how to solder as I worked in aerospace and was NASA
certified to inspect solder connections, ( although I don't remember everything). I did not get into fixing anything electronic although
I did do the monkey work of plugging harness assemblies into a go-nogo device to see if they were wired correctly, which took no electronics skill. I worked mainly on the mechanical and metal side of things.

Thanks
 
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Bluejets

Oct 5, 2014
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There is no shortcut to electronics.....as with many trades...........one must do the study and the "long haul" as the variables in applications are in the millions.
I , for one, have over 65 years experience with a variety of electronics and in certain areas.
Then you have others with expertice in other areas.

Either way, maybe you can fix a tap, but thing is, did you do it right, does it comply with building regs, on and on and on.........
 

H2814D

Nov 4, 2017
157
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I'm only interested in achieving the same skill level as say a DIY plumber.
Unfortunately, with electronics repair and troubleshooting, when compared to repairing plumbing issues, the similarities end quickly. In a plumbing repair, the problems are usually obvious upon visual inspection and typically determined without specialized test equipment. Electronics repair is completely opposite of that. Occasionally, you may find a problem visually, like a burnt resistor, blown fuse, or a bulging capacitor, but the task afterward is to find the reason why a component failed. Some fail just due to age, and some have failure reasons that are just not discoverable without the training and equipment needed to follow a logical and experienced path.

Having just comparable DIY skills in electronics repair and troubleshooting would limit you to changing batteries, or replacing fuses. These things are fairly simple and would require only minimal skills and equipment, like the multimeter you said you now have. If that is simply the level you are after, you sound as if you would be there already, and it also sounds as if you are fine with that. That's good, too.
Evidently asking too many questions here is forbidden and will result in scorn of a certain degree or you will be told to consult a "crystal ball" for answers and compare you to less than a small child who asks "why why"?
Quite the opposite is true. In my experience here, when you ask questions about a specific electronic component, or repair, there are usually many educated replies or directions to take afterward. After re-reading all of the comments in this thread, however, I do see where it appears you would rather have DIY Electronics Troubleshooting and Repair be as simple as installing plumbing parts. I would like that, too. :) I can assure you, having done both of those things, there is just no comparison.

When I initiate an electronics repair, it is almost always for something I own. I don't do work for others, just because of the liability factor that comes with electricity and the possibilities of catastrophic failures if something would go wrong. I will take the chance for me, but not for anyone else. I have before, but it is rare and I make sure the risk is minimal.
I've learned in some college classes I have taken on other subjects that one way to learn efficiently is the "spiral" method where you go around the core of a particular subject (i.e. repeat it) and increase the size of the spiral.
For simple concepts, that "spiral method" works well. Electronics repair is often a multitude of combined "cores" attached together to complete one larger spiral. Simply using your spiral learning process doesn't work as well here. Too many "spirals," with too many "cores," if you will. There are many things that all of those cores combined together do that make the end product useful. Understanding each of those cores, and how they interact with each other, takes a lot of time and experience to understand, and even I know that, being a novice at what I do. Again, using your DIY Plumbing example, the plumbing challenge is straight forward and easy to follow. Not so with trying to troubleshoot a printed circuit board, especially if there are multiple layers to the board and a lot of components to check, as you mentioned in your initial posting, especially if you have no idea as to where to start.

My last comment would be for you not to sour on the experienced techs here based on their comments, but just know these guys will help if you come back with specific questions about a specific issue. Electronics repair is fun, when a repair is successful, and frustrating as all get out when it's not. A lot of time is seemingly wasted sometimes, but for me, I am always learning something new. Slowly, but at least something anyway.

Good luck, and take care.
 

kellys_eye

Jun 25, 2010
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Apparently the combined knowledge and understanding of 100's of years of PRACTICAL experience (as summed through the ages of the contributors to this thread) still hasn't resulted in an answer to satisfy the OP.

Either 'we' are stupid or the OP hasn't the ability to (a) ask the right questions or (b) accept the answers as given.

There are no short cuts. Learn the theory or get some experience. As to 'how much' of either is not for us to qualify but for the OP to decide.

Suggest this thread is closed.
 

HAROLDYOUNG

Jul 15, 2023
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Unfortunately, with electronics repair and troubleshooting, when compared to repairing plumbing issues, the similarities end quickly. In a plumbing repair, the problems are usually obvious upon visual inspection and typically determined without specialized test equipment. Electronics repair is completely opposite of that. Occasionally, you may find a problem visually, like a burnt resistor, blown fuse, or a bulging capacitor, but the task afterward is to find the reason why a component failed. Some fail just due to age, and some have failure reasons that are just not discoverable without the training and equipment needed to follow a logical and experienced path.

Having just comparable DIY skills in electronics repair and troubleshooting would limit you to changing batteries, or replacing fuses. These things are fairly simple and would require only minimal skills and equipment, like the multimeter you said you now have. If that is simply the level you are after, you sound as if you would be there already, and it also sounds as if you are fine with that. That's good, too.

Quite the opposite is true. In my experience here, when you ask questions about a specific electronic component, or repair, there are usually many educated replies or directions to take afterward. After re-reading all of the comments in this thread, however, I do see where it appears you would rather have DIY Electronics Troubleshooting and Repair be as simple as installing plumbing parts. I would like that, too. :) I can assure you, having done both of those things, there is just no comparison.

When I initiate an electronics repair, it is almost always for something I own. I don't do work for others, just because of the liability factor that comes with electricity and the possibilities of catastrophic failures if something would go wrong. I will take the chance for me, but not for anyone else. I have before, but it is rare and I make sure the risk is minimal.

For simple concepts, that "spiral method" works well. Electronics repair is often a multitude of combined "cores" attached together to complete one larger spiral. Simply using your spiral learning process doesn't work as well here. Too many "spirals," with too many "cores," if you will. There are many things that all of those cores combined together do that make the end product useful. Understanding each of those cores, and how they interact with each other, takes a lot of time and experience to understand, and even I know that, being a novice at what I do. Again, using your DIY Plumbing example, the plumbing challenge is straight forward and easy to follow. Not so with trying to troubleshoot a printed circuit board, especially if there are multiple layers to the board and a lot of components to check, as you mentioned in your initial posting, especially if you have no idea as to where to start.

My last comment would be for you not to sour on the experienced techs here based on their comments, but just know these guys will help if you come back with specific questions about a specific issue. Electronics repair is fun, when a repair is successful, and frustrating as all get out when it's not. A lot of time is seemingly wasted sometimes, but for me, I am always learning something new. Slowly, but at least something anyway.

Good luck, and take care.
Great explanation on the equivalence between DIY home plumbing and DIY home electronics. You grasped my question and answered
it according to what I asked on the DIY level. Mostly of what I got was "there are no shortcuts in electronics" , and I understood that, but I was not asking if there was a shortcut, but simply inquiring about (again) DIY repair on home devices at an elementary level, that's all.
Originally I asked about checking components on a board and that evolved into the DIY home repair inquiry.

Interesting what you said about plumbing repair not really being a good comparison as electronics takes more technical knowledge.
Just as a general observation, with the lesser technical knowledge it takes to be a plumber, it is surprising that plumbers make as
much or more money than electronics engineers whose educational and technical level is way beyond an electronics technician
if one was to compare salaries.

Go ahead and close the thread. With H2814D's response I'm done with this inquiry and thanks for the many "there are no shortcuts in electronics" and "Learn the theory or get some experience" remarks. A better response would have "DIY at Home electronics with no experience or training won't work" would have been a better answer although with some of the youtube videos I looked at it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to use those videos for basic education on a DIY level.

Over and Out
Harold the DIY plumber and aerospace worker.
 
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