ROHS Question

P

Paul E. Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard Crowley said:
"Chuck Harris" wrote ...

So does the euronation have lead-free car batteries?

I just checked the Sierra Club website for their take on RoHS, expecting a
deluge of Rah-Rah acclaims, but I found only one reference, in a local Ohio
newsletter, which simply lauded the Europeans for being responsible, and
chiding Washington for dragging their heels. Even a search for "lead free"
only came up with a few references, the first of which talked about
California laws banning lead contaminated candy which was thought to be
causing poisoning among Latino children, while it was found that the cause
was actually from their eating fried grasshoppers which came from villages

Meanwhile, I have stripped my house of its dangerous asbestos siding, and
scraped away layers of what was most likely lead paint (the chips were
quite heavy), and I disposed of the debris as carefully as possible, taking
it to a designated area of a local landfill. As a homeowner I could do this
for no fee, but contractors must pay a hefty price, which probably entices
many of them to sneak the nasty stuff into ordinary disposal. I'm sure
there are many more ways for this sort of dangerous lead bearing material
to get into the environment and the food chain (which may include
contaminated dirt, for young children).

I don't think car batteries are a real problem, as the lead is safely
contained, and most of them are probably recycled. I think junk yards and
repair shops are required to do so, there are recycling centers that take
batteries, and auto parts stores offer trade-in for old batteries.

The problem with electronic items I think is not so much the chance of
minute amounts of hazardous substances getting into the environment, but
the huge waste of so much material being discarded at such a rapid pace.
This is true for too many things we have. We are constantly bombarded with
ads encouraging us to buy the latest gizmo and simply toss out last year's
technology, but often manufacturers simply change the style or add
unnecessary "cool" features just to make products obsolete and get fresh
revenue from a line of new things.

I am fortunate not to have products which must meet RoHS requirements, but
I am still affected by the availability of parts, and the known problems of
some RoHS compliant parts and materials. I am a strong supporter of most
efforts to save our environment, but much of RoHS seems to miss more
important issues.

Paul

P

Philipp Klaus Krause

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chuck said:
Now, imagine that lead makes paint a little bit sweet (it does), and
that it
was used for interior paint in houses (it was)... and oh, do you feel
lucky?

Lead(II)-acetate has been used as a sweetener until into the 19th century.
Beethoven's death.
(It's known that he died of lead-poisoning since he himself had ordered
an autopsy to be performed on him).

Philipp

N

nospam

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chuck Harris said:
Ever had a kid? My boy is top of the top in his school, but you should see
what he did to the edge of the coffee table when he was 1 yo and those teeth
were coming in: Chomp, chomp, chomp... I was with him, as best as I could
be all the time, but he still found time to chew away.

Now, imagine that lead makes paint a little bit sweet (it does), and that it
was used for interior paint in houses (it was)... and oh, do you feel lucky?

Did you not feel like repainting your house in the last 40 years?
I am quite certain that ingesting lead will damage your mental capacities.

Then you will be quite able to point us at the information which led you to
this belief.

--

K

Klaus Bahner

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't think car batteries are a real problem, as the lead is safely
contained, and most of them are probably recycled. I think junk yards and
repair shops are required to do so, there are recycling centers that take
batteries, and auto parts stores offer trade-in for old batteries.

I second that. Considering that car batteries are easy to recycle and
are actually of some value - lead is a rather expensive metal. Hence,
it's not very likely for them to end, where they shouldn't end..

The problem with electronic items I think is not so much the chance of
minute amounts of hazardous substances getting into the environment, but
the huge waste of so much material being discarded at such a rapid pace.
This is true for too many things we have. We are constantly bombarded with
ads encouraging us to buy the latest gizmo and simply toss out last year's
unfashionable junk.

I think you have a point here. I'm personally speculating as to which
extent a changed attitude towards electronics products has made RoHS
possibel. I believe that people are really tired of all the cheapish,
plastics electronics garbage, formally known as consumer electronics,
which don't last very long, cannot be repaired (service, spare parts are
non existent), and have to be replaced anyway a couple of years after
purchase, because our industry says, there is something newer and
better, which of course isn't compatible.
In short, most people nowadays probably have a love/hate relationship to
their electronics products. We have to have a PC, cell phone, TV set and
so on, but that is more a necessaty than anything you really like to
have. Hence, people and their politicians have a rather negative
attitude towards electronics, so it's easy to make an RoHS directive.
Compare it to cars, people are much happier for the cars than for their
PC - just a coincidence, that automotive electronics is exempt from
RoHS???

I am fortunate not to have products which must meet RoHS requirements, but
I am still affected by the availability of parts, and the known problems of

Still I challenge the non availability of parts due to RoHS as urban
legend. So far I haven't found anything which you can't get any longer
because RoHS has made it impossible.
If at all, then I believe that vendors have used RoHS as a good excuse
to cease production of non profitable components, whithout risking a bad
reputation. (Possibly the case with Philips' HV diodes). But
everything which is profitable is also available as RoHS compliant
component. I can't see the difference to the obsolecence problem in
general.

some RoHS compliant parts and materials.

Known problems? What are you referring to? I don't know of any part
problems.
Tin whiskers? Well this is a production problem and sorry, I can't see
the difference - Production problems are widely accepted, if one can
earn money, by moving production to China and using crappy South/East
Asian parts (caps etc.). The end user doesn't care whether his product
fails, due to tin whiskers or profit-optimizing production methods.

Cheers,
Klaus

R

Roy L. Fuchs

Jan 1, 1970
0
What date is set for RoHS? I just bought a reel of lead-tin solder, if the
cut off date is still to arrive I can wait till it passes and go repeat the
order and see what happens!
You have four days.

R

Roy L. Fuchs

Jan 1, 1970
0
I like that term "euronation" ;-)
Do you feel as though you have been euronated on as a result of RoHS?

R

Roy L. Fuchs

Jan 1, 1970
0
The lead that is outside becomes a problem when a child's hands get in the
lead contaminated dirt, and then get in the child's mouth. An event that
happens dozens of times per minute with 1-2-3 yo's.

The dirt and hands thing happens dozens of times in a child's
life... The lead from dirt thing is a VERY rare event indeed.

So, NO, it does not, nor has NOT EVER become a problem.

C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
nospam said:
Did you not feel like repainting your house in the last 40 years?

I built my house, so I know exactly what it was painted with, by whom, and when.
Since I have been living in houses for the last 50 years, I would suspect that
some of the earlier houses and apartments were painted with lead paint. My family
was always fastidious enough to require the stripping and repainting of walls
and trim that were chipped and peeling. This isn't always the case among the
poorer inner city folks, though why I cannot say.
Then you will be quite able to point us at the information which led you to
this belief.

My high school chemistry teacher Mr. Samuel Perlmutter. He spent 20-30 years working as
a research chemist for the US Food and Drug Administration, before spending much
of the rest of his life teaching honors chemistry to us brats. He spent quite a
heavy metals. This was in the early 1970's. He won a number of prestigious national
awards for his teaching. If you google, ["Samuel Perlmutter" award] you can find
a shamefully tiny bit of information about him. Not much considering the tremendous
boost he gave his many students.

What proof do you have that runs against hundreds of years of common knowledge,
beginning with the downfall of the Roman Empire?

-Chuck

C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
Meanwhile, I have stripped my house of its dangerous asbestos siding, and

You, would have been safer if you left the siding alone. By removing it,
you released a fair amount of asbestos dust that may (though probably won't)
be harmful to your life in 30 years.
scraped away layers of what was most likely lead paint (the chips were
quite heavy),

The lead was only a very small percentage of the material in the paint. I
would doubt that it would contribute noticeably to the weight.

....
I don't think car batteries are a real problem, as the lead is safely
contained,

Drop one, and you will notice that the lead isn't contained much at all.
Leave one out in the sun for a few years, and the plastic case will crumble
into nothingness. I have several on my farm that were just left by earlier
occupants, and they have most certainly released all of their acid, and as
much of their lead as they could to the elements. I would estimate that
and lead oxide in it. The lead is in a very porous form, so it has lots of
surface area exposed. This extreme surface area provides a greater amount
of incidental dissolution in water than a shiny lead surface would have.

It is true that there is a pretty good recycling system available for car
batteries, but given that many wholesalers, like Costco, charge you extra
when you leave a battery for recycling, literally tons of car batteries
bypass the recycling system and head straight into the environment.

One car battery improperly disposed of, equals, I would guess, several metric
tons of PC's improperly disposed of.

....

I am fortunate not to have products which must meet RoHS requirements, but
I am still affected by the availability of parts, and the known problems of
some RoHS compliant parts and materials. I am a strong supporter of most
efforts to save our environment, but much of RoHS seems to miss more
important issues.

I too am interested in the environment. I have to live here too! But legislation
like RoHS isn't about saving the environment, it is about political power. RoHS
is the natural result of a flawed philosophy, whose major canon is: it is
always a good thing when you eliminate something bad. Unintended consequences
aren't given any real weight in the legislative process.

-Chuck

C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard Crowley wrote:
One has only to look at the quantity of lead in a
So does the euronation have lead-free car batteries?

Of course not! Batteries are expressly excluded from RoHS.

-Chuck

R

Richard Crowley

Jan 1, 1970
0
My high school chemistry teacher Mr. Samuel Perlmutter. He spent
20-30 years working as
a research chemist for the US Food and Drug Administration, before
spending much
of the rest of his life teaching honors chemistry to us brats. He
spent quite a
bit of time teaching us about the toxic risks of mercury, lead,
heavy metals. This was in the early 1970's. He won a number of
prestigious national
awards for his teaching. If you google, ["Samuel Perlmutter" award]
you can find
a shamefully tiny bit of information about him. Not much considering
the tremendous
boost he gave his many students.

Lack of any actual reference to ingestion-caused poisioning
noted.
What proof do you have that runs against hundreds of years of common
knowledge, beginning with the downfall of the Roman Empire?

Surely you don't think THAT argument holds any water?
There is absolutely no indication that we have learned
ANYTHING. We are headed in exactly the same direction
and exceeding the historical speed limit, at that.

R

Rene Tschaggelar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chuck said:
Paul E. Schoen wrote:

Drop one, and you will notice that the lead isn't contained much at all.
Leave one out in the sun for a few years, and the plastic case will crumble
into nothingness. I have several on my farm that were just left by
earlier
occupants, and they have most certainly released all of their acid, and as
much of their lead as they could to the elements. I would estimate that
sulfide,
and lead oxide in it. The lead is in a very porous form, so it has lots of
surface area exposed. This extreme surface area provides a greater amount
of incidental dissolution in water than a shiny lead surface would have.

It is true that there is a pretty good recycling system available for car
batteries, but given that many wholesalers, like Costco, charge you extra
when you leave a battery for recycling, literally tons of car batteries
bypass the recycling system and head straight into the environment.

One car battery improperly disposed of, equals, I would guess, several
metric
tons of PC's improperly disposed of.

A stuck system ?
As youth I spent a fair number of afternoons to grab
old car batteries from the junkyard and wheeled them on the
bicycle to the car battery maker which would give me 5
bucks for each. Mom just wondered why the t-shirts become
porous rather quickly.

Rene

M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
My high school chemistry teacher Mr. Samuel Perlmutter. He spent
20-30 years working as
a research chemist for the US Food and Drug Administration, before
spending much
of the rest of his life teaching honors chemistry to us brats. He
spent quite a
bit of time teaching us about the toxic risks of mercury, lead,
heavy metals. This was in the early 1970's. He won a number of
prestigious national
awards for his teaching. If you google, ["Samuel Perlmutter" award]
you can find
a shamefully tiny bit of information about him. Not much considering
the tremendous
boost he gave his many students.

Lack of any actual reference to ingestion-caused poisioning
noted.
What proof do you have that runs against hundreds of years of common
knowledge, beginning with the downfall of the Roman Empire?

Surely you don't think THAT argument holds any water?
There is absolutely no indication that we have learned
ANYTHING. We are headed in exactly the same direction
and exceeding the historical speed limit, at that.

The Romans used a lead compound to sweeten their wine. Lead water
supply pipes have a layer of calcium that keeps the water away from the
lead. On the other hand, you wouldn't want to use lead to distribute
soft or distilled water.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

S

Stephen Rush

Jan 1, 1970
0
I too am interested in the environment. I have to live here too! But legislation
like RoHS isn't about saving the environment, it is about political power. RoHS
is the natural result of a flawed philosophy, whose major canon is: it is
always a good thing when you eliminate something bad. Unintended consequences
aren't given any real weight in the legislative process.

Of course not, that would require legislators to _think_ instead of just
reacting to the threat-of-the-moment. My favorite unintended consequence
story is what happened when car manufacturers improved vehicle antitheft
systems. Back when you could just pull the lock out of the steering column
with a slide hammer, car theft was a form of sneak-thievery. Now, it's more
effective to stick a pistol in the driver's face at a stoplight. This is
compounded by mandatory-sentencing laws in some states that put armed
robbery in the same class as murder. All _that_ does is give a robber a
powerful incentive to kill his victim, eliminating the principal witness.

A good law needs to be written like a good program, covering all
cases. Maybe all members of Congress and state legislatures should be
required to learn to program, on a system that has STDERR routed through a
step-up transformer to a pair of electrodes in the seat of the user's
chair.

N

nospam

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chuck Harris said:
I built my house, so I know exactly what it was painted with, by whom, and when.
Since I have been living in houses for the last 50 years, I would suspect that
some of the earlier houses and apartments were painted with lead paint. My family
was always fastidious enough to require the stripping and repainting of walls
and trim that were chipped and peeling. This isn't always the case among the
poorer inner city folks, though why I cannot say.

So the children of poorer inner city folks are likely to contain more lead.
If the IQ of the children of poor inner city folks turns out to be a bit
below average would you attribute that to them being the children of poorer
inner city folks or to the lead they contain?

And I am quite certain that ingesting enough lead will damage all your
capacities, ingesting enough lead will damage the suspension of the hearse
they cart your body away it - but that's not the point is it.

The only claimed adverse effect of very low level lead exposure is a
reduction in children's IQ. When I looked I could find no evidence to
support this claim.
Then you will be quite able to point us at the information which led you to
this belief.

My high school chemistry teacher Mr. Samuel Perlmutter. He spent 20-30 years working as
a research chemist for the US Food and Drug Administration, before spending much
of the rest of his life teaching honors chemistry to us brats. He spent quite a
heavy metals. This was in the early 1970's. He won a number of prestigious national
awards for his teaching. If you google, ["Samuel Perlmutter" award] you can find
a shamefully tiny bit of information about him. Not much considering the tremendous
boost he gave his many students.

When you have finished name dropping perhaps you will tell us what this
name told you about low level lead exposure and children's IQ or point to
some other evidence to support what you appear to be "quite certain" about.
--

R

Rich, but drunk

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm a seven, you're an eight...

I'm a 'merican, you're a-peein'...

C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
Richard said:
My high school chemistry teacher Mr. Samuel Perlmutter. He spent
20-30 years working as
a research chemist for the US Food and Drug Administration, before
spending much
of the rest of his life teaching honors chemistry to us brats. He
spent quite a
bit of time teaching us about the toxic risks of mercury, lead,
heavy metals. This was in the early 1970's. He won a number of
prestigious national
awards for his teaching. If you google, ["Samuel Perlmutter" award]
you can find
a shamefully tiny bit of information about him. Not much considering
the tremendous
boost he gave his many students.

Lack of any actual reference to ingestion-caused poisioning
noted.

Are you familiar with primary and secondary sources? Perlmutter was
both. He worked for a lab that did research on the physiological effects
of foods and food additives, and he was familiar with the research that
was done.

Here are some other primary sources:

Bleecker ML, et al. Differential effects of lead exposure on components of verbal memory. Occup Environ Med. 2005
Mar;62(3):181-7.

Chen A, Dietrick, KN, Ware, JH, et al. IQ and Blood Lead from 2 to 7 Years of Age: Are the Effects in Older Children
the Residual of High Blood Lead Concentrations in 2-Year-Olds? Environ Health Perspect. 2005 May;113(5):597-601.

Tong S, et al. Environmental Lead Exposure: A Public Health Problem of Global Dimensions. Bull World Health Organ. 2000;
78(9): 1068-77.

Wright RO, et al. Association between iron deficiency and blood lead level in a longitudinal analysis of children
followed in an urban primary care clinic. J Pediatr. 2003;142: 9–14.

1. Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program. Cenus/surveillance data. Los Angeles, CA: Los Angeles Department of
Health Services; Maternal, Child & Adolescent Health, Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program; 2006. Available at
2. CDC. Preventing lead poisoning in young children. Atlanta, GA: US Department of Health and Human Services, CDC;
3. CDC. Lead poisoning from ingestion of a toy necklace---Oregon, 2003. MMWR 2004;53:509--11.
4. International Programme on Chemical Safety. Environmental health criteria 165: inorganic lead. Geneva,
Switzerland: United Nations Environment Programme, International Labour Organisation, World Health Organization; 1995.
Available at http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc165.htm.
5. CDC. Blood lead levels, United States, 1999--2002. MMWR 2005;54:513--6.
6. Maas RP, Patch SC, Pandolfo TJ, Druhan JL, Gandy NF. Lead content and exposure from children's and adult's
jewelry products. Bull Environ Contam Toxicol 2005;74:437--44.

Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. (1988). The nature and extent of lead poisoning in children in the
United States: a report to Congress. Atlanta: USDHHS.

Centers for Disease Control. (1991). Preventing lead poisoning in young children. Atlanta: USDHHS, PHS.

Centers for Disease Control. (Undated flier). Important facts about childhood lead poisoning prevention. Atlanta:
USDHHS, PHS.

1. Childhood Lead Poisoning Facts-2002, Michigan Department of Community Health (MDCH), 2003. [Data adapted]
2. Blood Lead Testing in Michigan. 1994-2002 [Graph], MDCH, 2003
3. Unpublished 2002 Datafile, Kent County Health Department
4. Scott R, MDCH, Lansing Michigan, E-mail, May 30, 2003.
5. “Cognitive Impairment in Children with Blood Lead Concentrations below 10 ug per Deciliter.” Canfield RL et al. New
England Journal of Medicine. April, 2003: 348, 1517-26
6. Press Release, Pediatric Academic Societies. April 2001
7. A Strange Ignorance. Mike Martin. Arizona School Boards Association. Phoenix, AZ 2002.
8. “Cognitive Deficits Associated with Blood Lead Concentrations <10 ug/dl in U.S. Children and Adolescents.” Lanphear
BP et al. Public Health Reports. Nov/Dec 2000; 115: 521-529
9. “Early exposure to lead and juvenile delinquency.” Dietrich KN et al. Neurotoxicology and Teratology. 2001; 23: 511-518.
10. “Childhood Exposure to Lead: A Common Cause of School Failure.” Needleman HL. Phi Delta Kappan. Sept. 1992
11. Personal Communication. Holtrop T. Children’s Hospital of Michigan, Detroit, Michigan, December 10, 2002.
12. Personal Communication. Thompson L. Wayne State University , Detroit, Michigan, May 31, 2003
13. “Behavioral Effects of Lead: Commonalities between Experimental and Epidemiologic Data.” Rice CR. Environmental
Health Perspectives. 104, Supplement 2, April 1996 [Abstract].
14. “Risk Assessment of the Developmental Neurotoxicity of Lead.” Davis JM. NeuroToxicology. 1990; 11:285-292.
15. “Environmental Pollutants and Disease in American Children: Estimates of Morbidity, Mortality, and Costs for Lead
Poisoning, Asthma, Cancer, and Developmental Disabilities.” Landrigan PJ et al. Environmental Health Perspectives. July
2002: 110:721-72812 [Data Adapted: $43.4 Billion U.S. × 20,200 EBLL in MI ÷ 890,000 EBLL in U.S. =$0.985 Billion (MI)]

Intellectual Impairment and Blood Lead Levels
Bellinger D. C., Needleman H. L., Eden A. N., Donohoe M. T., Canfield R. L., Henderson C. R. Jr., Lanphear B. P.

Intellectual Impairment in Children with Blood Lead Concentrations below 10 µg per Deciliter
Richard L. Canfield, Ph.D., Charles R. Henderson, Jr., M.A., Deborah A. Cory-Slechta, Ph.D., Christopher Cox, Ph.D.,
Todd A. Jusko, B.S., and Bruce P. Lanphear, M.D., M.P.H.

How many references do you need?
Surely you don't think THAT argument holds any water?

Yes, I do. It is well known that the Romans used lead as a medicine,
a writing implement, for jewelry, for eating and cooking utensils, for
decorations, for plumbing, and numerous other purposes. They were well
steeped in both lead, and madness... but inspite of that the Romans did
not make the connection. Later generations did.
There is absolutely no indication that we have learned
ANYTHING. We are headed in exactly the same direction
and exceeding the historical speed limit, at that.

Huh?

-Chuck

N

nospam

Jan 1, 1970
0
Chuck Harris said:
How many references do you need?

Of the few you gave which I could look at the one with this extract will do
a) The most substantial evidence from cross-sectional and
prospective studies of populations with PbB levels generally
below 1.2 µmol/litre (25 µg/dl) relates to decrements in
intelligence quotient (IQ). It is important to note that such
observational studies cannot provide definitive evidence of a
causal relationship with lead exposure. However .... blah blah

and what a rant the last linked reference you gave is.

--

C

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
0
nospam said:
So the children of poorer inner city folks are likely to contain more lead.
If the IQ of the children of poor inner city folks turns out to be a bit
below average would you attribute that to them being the children of poorer
inner city folks or to the lead they contain?

It could be due to many factors. I am well aware that correlation does not equal
causation. As are the researchers that have written a myriad of papers on the
subject. As with all human research, it is difficult to prove causation... Something
about the moral issues of doing a double blind test by feeding one twin lead,
and raising both in the same environment just to see what happens.
And I am quite certain that ingesting enough lead will damage all your
capacities, ingesting enough lead will damage the suspension of the hearse
they cart your body away it - but that's not the point is it.

The only claimed adverse effect of very low level lead exposure is a
reduction in children's IQ. When I looked I could find no evidence to
support this claim.

Where did you look? and more importantly, *why* did you look?
When you have finished name dropping perhaps you will tell us what this
name told you about low level lead exposure and children's IQ or point to
some other evidence to support what you appear to be "quite certain" about.

Dropping Mr. Perlmutter's name isn't likely to buy anyone great prestige, or
win an argument. I used his name because I remembered it fondly, and you asked
for my source. He was a very smart, and decent man that chose to work in
education, rather than remain a cog in the wheels of the government bureaucracy.
As a result, he is a largely unsung hero, championed only by his former friends,
family and students.

He mentioned a link between blood lead level, and cognitive development. I am
certain he did not say anything about IQ, but the inference could be easily
made. He knew that a bunch of us were radio nuts, and handled solder, so we
were told about the usual ways lead gets into the body, and warned to always
wash our hands. Probably good advice in any event.

-Chuck

N

nospam

Jan 1, 1970
0
Where did you look? and more importantly, *why* did you look?

I looked at everything I could find on the internet and I looked a few
years ago at the time leaded petrol was prohibited in the UK. I looked to
find out for myself what if any justification there was rather than just
blindly accepting glib statements like

"Nevertheless some infants and children may still be at risk. Studies have
shown that lead can have a small effect on the mental development of
children. It may also be a factor in behavioural problems."

with which the internet is littered.
--

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