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ROHS Question


ian field

Jan 1, 1970
Roy L. Fuchs said:
You have four days.

Someone else already told me I can still buy lead/tin solder because I
repair old stuff that was originally manufactured with lead/tin.

ian field

Jan 1, 1970
Michael A. Terrell said:
Richard said:
My high school chemistry teacher Mr. Samuel Perlmutter. He spent
20-30 years working as
a research chemist for the US Food and Drug Administration, before
spending much
of the rest of his life teaching honors chemistry to us brats. He
spent quite a
bit of time teaching us about the toxic risks of mercury, lead,
cadmium, and other
heavy metals. This was in the early 1970's. He won a number of
prestigious national
awards for his teaching. If you google, ["Samuel Perlmutter" award]
you can find
a shamefully tiny bit of information about him. Not much considering
the tremendous
boost he gave his many students.

Lack of any actual reference to ingestion-caused poisioning
What proof do you have that runs against hundreds of years of common
knowledge, beginning with the downfall of the Roman Empire?

Surely you don't think THAT argument holds any water?
There is absolutely no indication that we have learned
ANYTHING. We are headed in exactly the same direction
and exceeding the historical speed limit, at that.

The Romans used a lead compound to sweeten their wine. Lead water
supply pipes have a layer of calcium that keeps the water away from the
lead. On the other hand, you wouldn't want to use lead to distribute
soft or distilled water.

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

The Romans also served food on pewter dishes - practically solder by another

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
nospam said:
Of the few you gave which I could look at the one with this extract will do
a) The most substantial evidence from cross-sectional and
prospective studies of populations with PbB levels generally
below 1.2 µmol/litre (25 µg/dl) relates to decrements in
intelligence quotient (IQ). It is important to note that such
observational studies cannot provide definitive evidence of a
causal relationship with lead exposure. However .... blah blah

So, if it isn't on the internet, it isn't important? Hmm? You know that
the first casualty of the internet was the truth.

As I said earlier, it is all but impossible to prove causality with humans.
Something about the moral implications of doing a double blind test, of this
sort, on twin children. The tests have been done on mice, and other mammals,
and what a rant the last linked reference you gave is.

On that I agree. I had to read the stupid thing twice to figure out what
his beef was. Basically, he was mad because the council didn't consider
that lead may be the cause of low performance in children.

But seriously, what is your agenda?

Are you trying to prove that the poor inner city utes are dumb because it
is their nature? [Thoughts like that make some white folks feel superior,
and better about their own dismal lives...]

I surely hope that you aren't in that category.

Or are you trying to prove that the government/environmentalists/do-gooders
are trying to pull one over on the public for some as yet undisclosed reason?

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy (hell, more than the next guy!),
but I cannot see the angle on this one. Maybe it is to keep the bridge painters

RoHS, fits in the same catagory as lead paint bans; but, my reason for being against RoHS
is that it is too expensive, too dangerous, and provides too little return for the
cost or the danger. I do fundamentally believe that lead is worthy of respect
in its handling. It is indisputable that it is a poison for humans. The question
is in what quantity does it pose the most risk.


ian field

Jan 1, 1970
Rene Tschaggelar said:
A stuck system ?
As youth I spent a fair number of afternoons to grab
old car batteries from the junkyard and wheeled them on the
bicycle to the car battery maker which would give me 5
bucks for each. Mom just wondered why the t-shirts become
porous rather quickly.


Spilling acid on a yellow T-shirt produces purple splashes - which later
fall out!

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
nospam said:
I looked at everything I could find on the internet and I looked a few
years ago at the time leaded petrol was prohibited in the UK. I looked to
find out for myself what if any justification there was rather than just
blindly accepting glib statements like ...

Ok, now I know your probable motive. A lot of motor enthusiasts in the US
have gone on extended rants about the removal of lead from gasoline here. I
have heard stories of the trememdous damage that would be done to all of the
older engines by the lack of lead. Well, in my own anecdotal experience, I
haven't seen the damage yet, and I regularily run engines from the 1950's up
to the current day. I plow with a 1951 Ferguson tractor. The biggest difference
I have seen is I don't need to replace the spark plugs as often, and the valves
seem to last forever because they don't get gummed as badly as they did with
the leaded fuels. But as I said that is anecdotal to my experience, and use
of these engines. A NASCAR driver will probably feel differently.

I, of course, wonder if the lead would have been taken out of the gasoline if
it hadn't been necessary for proper catalytic convert operation.


OBTW, most of the research on on the effects of lead on children's development
was done years before lead was removed from gasoline. That puts a whole lot of
the information out of the reach of the internet. You might need to go to a
university library to find the real data.

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
ian said:
The Romans also served food on pewter dishes - practically solder by another

Pewter was still in everyday use, till cheap aluminum became
available, early last century. It takes a high acid content to dissolve
the lead oxide from Pewter dishes and utensils.

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida


Jan 1, 1970
Chuck Harris said:
Ok, now I know your probable motive.

No you don't. I already posted (I thought in this thread) that the real
reason for removing lead from petrol was to facilitate catalytic converters
and that on balance I thought it was probably a good thing.

I have no motive other than a desire to see the world managed properly by
competent people rather than the bunch of mostly fuckwits who are a law
unto themselves we have now.

A root cause of the problem is covered here

A lack of political ideology has left politicians to cultivate a climate of
fear then step into the void they encouraged as risk managers to justify
their existence, 9/11 was a real gift to politicians.

and this covers some less well publicised euro political bullshit


Geoff C

Jan 1, 1970
Well, yes and no.

The tin in the RoHS parts dilutes the tin-lead solder, and makes
it a funny alloy that usually looks frosty when it cools. I would
suggest using 60-40, as opposed to 63-37 solder. The resulting alloy
sure looks better. As the tin heats up on the part, it wrinkles
and looks really nasty where it is exposed to oxygen.

All that aside, once you get a decent looking joint with tin-lead
solder, on RoHS parts, things are great.

When you start working with lead free solder, you will notice that
"good" joints look like cold solder joints with normal solder.

Also, in storage, RoHS parts oxidize and that prevents them from
taking solder, so be wary of older stock parts.

The electronics industry is going to be hurt really bad by this
stupid diversion into giving the euronation that warm and fuzzy
feeling of being lead-free. Their time and efforts would be better
spent ridding themselves of lead plumbing. Lead, the "plumb" in

-Chuck Harris

What about the same situation but with wave soldering instead of hand

Chuck Harris

Jan 1, 1970
nospam said:
No you don't. I already posted (I thought in this thread) that the real
reason for removing lead from petrol was to facilitate catalytic converters
and that on balance I thought it was probably a good thing.

I have no motive other than a desire to see the world managed properly by
competent people rather than the bunch of mostly fuckwits who are a law
unto themselves we have now.

Ok, you surprised me with that one. I am in 100% concurrence with you on
the subject of over regulation. In the 'states, we are suffering from the
same thing. It got its big start in 1986 with the tax simplification act
that was purported to reduce taxes, and eliminate the need for tax accountants.
What they ended up doing was known in the trade as the accountant's relief act.
Basically the tax code blossomed to about 10x its original size. Virtually
insuring that one could no longer complete his tax return without the aid of
an accountant or specialized computer program.

Emboldened by that great success, the legislature moved on to more and trickier
regulations. Most are of the type that is called "nanny state" regulations.
The intense desire to protect us from anything that might be harmful, whether
it is self inflicted, or inflicted by others.

I am sorry that I thought your rant was about lead and kids. I didn't realize
that that was just an example of a case which was bothering you. I believe that if
you would go to a real library, such as exists at most universities, you would
find that there is plenty of literature that was written by real scientists that
describes the harm that small amounts of lead does to young children.

As to the unrestrained legislature. If you have any suggestions, I am all
ears. In the US, we have 3 boxes that are the foundation of our liberty:
the soapbox, the ballot box, and the cartridge box. The first two are starting
to appear lacking. I hope they will start working soon, before the 3rd box
is brought into play.


Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
Klaus said:
I second that. Considering that car batteries are easy to recycle and
are actually of some value - lead is a rather expensive metal. Hence,
it's not very likely for them to end, where they shouldn't end..

I think you have a point here. I'm personally speculating as to which
extent a changed attitude towards electronics products has made RoHS
possibel. I believe that people are really tired of all the cheapish,
plastics electronics garbage, formally known as consumer electronics,
which don't last very long, cannot be repaired (service, spare parts are
non existent), and have to be replaced anyway a couple of years after
purchase, because our industry says, there is something newer and
better, which of course isn't compatible.
In short, most people nowadays probably have a love/hate relationship to
their electronics products. We have to have a PC, cell phone, TV set and
so on, but that is more a necessaty than anything you really like to
have. Hence, people and their politicians have a rather negative
attitude towards electronics, so it's easy to make an RoHS directive.
Compare it to cars, people are much happier for the cars than for their
PC - just a coincidence, that automotive electronics is exempt from

Still I challenge the non availability of parts due to RoHS as urban
legend. So far I haven't found anything which you can't get any longer
because RoHS has made it impossible.
If at all, then I believe that vendors have used RoHS as a good excuse
to cease production of non profitable components, whithout risking a bad
reputation. (Possibly the case with Philips' HV diodes). But everything
which is profitable is also available as RoHS compliant component. I
can't see the difference to the obsolecence problem in general.

Known problems? What are you referring to? I don't know of any part
Tin whiskers? Well this is a production problem and sorry, I can't see
the difference - Production problems are widely accepted, if one can
earn money, by moving production to China and using crappy South/East
Asian parts (caps etc.). The end user doesn't care whether his product
fails, due to tin whiskers or profit-optimizing production methods.

You will care rather fast when you learn that X-ray put you to slow
dath due to radiation overexposure (tin whisker grew in wrong place), or
when your car brakes/fails to brake in a freakish manner--causing a
nasty crash (tin whisker grew in wrong place), or yur cell phone bill is
astronomical due to thousands of calls to the otherside of the world
(tin whisker grew in wrong place), or the airplany you are in crashes
due to....

Chris Jones

Jan 1, 1970
Chuck Harris wrote:

The lead was only a very small percentage of the material in the paint. I
would doubt that it would contribute noticeably to the weight.

My grandfather had some tins of lead paint and they were surprisingly heavy.
It was very easy to distinguish a tin of lead paint from other paint just
by the weight of the tin.


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