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Running Copper Clad Kapton Through Laser Printer

D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
I suspect this is a Google item. ...But I'm gambling that it's kinda
novel and so posting here instead.

Proposed Idea: 1oz copper clad kapton film 8x11 run through laser
printer.

Purpose: Cheapass PCB making.

Problem: Don't know enough about laser printer operation.
(Some sort of electrostatic charging + toner and heat if I recall )

Without opening up a physics book, I am right that this won't work?
The laser printer will attempt to charge the metal foil and it just
dissipates. No localized charges.
So...
Let's say I treated the copper surface..
I coat the surface with a chargeable coating...
Then come up with a chemical process to remove the coating in
non=toner areas....Which leads to:

Problem 2: Will 1oz copper clad kapton most likely jam up the feeder?

Anyone here fed weirdass materials into a cheapo $200 laser printer?
D from BC
 
D

DJ Delorie

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
Proposed Idea: 1oz copper clad kapton film 8x11 run through laser
printer.

Check the Homebrew_PCBs yahoo group, this has been discussed before.
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Check the Homebrew_PCBs yahoo group, this has been discussed before.

Of course...Getting the boot again.. :(
Huhhh... everything has been done before...

How about a cell phone with a built in digital multimeter?
See the DMM cell phone group? .... :)

Anyways.. just venting...
Thanks...I'll visit the Homebrew_PCB's yahoo group..
D from BC
 
D

DJ Delorie

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
Of course...Getting the boot again.. :(

No, just pointing out where a wealth of information might be, without
actually retyping it all myself.
Huhhh... everything has been done before...

Well, at least *tried* before. When it comes to making your own
pcb's, probably ;-)
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
No, just pointing out where a wealth of information might be, without
actually retyping it all myself.

I know...but wait a minute...
Seems like you do know.. :)
.....Spare a short answer? Maybe like : "Yes, works, needs coating, low
risk in laser printer."
I could figure out the rest. Save me a search.. :)
If there's lots of details then I'll understand and check out the PCB
homebrew group..
D from BC
 
I suspect this is a Google item. ...But I'm gambling that it's kinda
novel and so posting here instead.

Proposed Idea: 1oz copper clad kapton film 8x11 run through laser
printer.

Purpose: Cheapass PCB making.

Problem: Don't know enough about laser printer operation.
(Some sort of electrostatic charging + toner and heat if I recall )

That first problem is Easily Fixed:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/laser-printer.htm

Without opening up a physics book, I am right that this won't work?
The laser printer will attempt to charge the metal foil and it just
dissipates. No localized charges.
So...
Let's say I treated the copper surface..
I coat the surface with a chargeable coating...
Then come up with a chemical process to remove the coating in
non=toner areas....Which leads to:

Problem 2: Will 1oz copper clad kapton most likely jam up the feeder?

Anyone here fed weirdass materials into a cheapo $200 laser printer?
D from BC


Well... your fuser would have to melt copper, at, eh, 1085 degrees C.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper

If you're gonna experiment, I'd say get a used, working laser printer
for less than the $200.

Oh, and run experiments in a well-ventilated environment, invest in a
good fire extinguisher, get a permit from Air Quality
Management... ;-)
 
J

Jim Yanik

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] wrote in

IIRC,the printer writes a charge to a DRUM,then the toner is then applied
to,and the paper is pressed against it to transfer it,then to the fuser to
fix it.
Some laser printers may work differently.You would have to check the manual
for the specific LP.

depends on the paper path,and it's ability to handle stiffer/thicker
material than copy paper.
Well... your fuser would have to melt copper, at, eh, 1085 degrees C.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper

All the fuser does is melt the TONER,it doesn't melt the paper when
printing on paper.
If you're gonna experiment, I'd say get a used, working laser printer
for less than the $200.

Oh, and run experiments in a well-ventilated environment, invest in a
good fire extinguisher, get a permit from Air Quality
Management... ;-)

--
Michael Darrett, Senior Computer Resource Specialist
Wireless network setup, computer upgrades and repair.
Sacramento, California
http://www.acomputerexpert.com


I wonder if you could use a thermal WAX dot matrix printer,like Tektronix
made before they sold their printer division to Xerox.
Etchant won't touch the wax. Getting it off after etching could be messy.
 
C

Christopher Ott

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
I suspect this is a Google item. ...But I'm gambling that it's kinda
novel and so posting here instead.

Proposed Idea: 1oz copper clad kapton film 8x11 run through laser
printer.

Purpose: Cheapass PCB making.

Problem: Don't know enough about laser printer operation.
(Some sort of electrostatic charging + toner and heat if I recall )

Without opening up a physics book, I am right that this won't work?
The laser printer will attempt to charge the metal foil and it just
dissipates. No localized charges.
So...
Let's say I treated the copper surface..
I coat the surface with a chargeable coating...
Then come up with a chemical process to remove the coating in
non=toner areas....Which leads to:

Problem 2: Will 1oz copper clad kapton most likely jam up the feeder?

Anyone here fed weirdass materials into a cheapo $200 laser printer?
D from BC

"Electronics Now" ran an article about a decade ago explaining how to do
this with copper flex material, so it does appear to work. The nicest thing
is that the toner is a good etchant resist. I've not heard of anyone
accomplishing this with rigid boards though. Back when I worked at HP,
several of us tried to put together a system using an inkjet printer and
waterproof inks. In the end it was just cheaper and easier to use PCB
Express, and the idea got dropped.

Chris
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Electronics Now" ran an article about a decade ago explaining how to do
this with copper flex material, so it does appear to work. The nicest thing
is that the toner is a good etchant resist. I've not heard of anyone
accomplishing this with rigid boards though. Back when I worked at HP,
several of us tried to put together a system using an inkjet printer and
waterproof inks. In the end it was just cheaper and easier to use PCB
Express, and the idea got dropped.

Chris

Ohhhh yeah! :) This is getting so tempting to try...
I have the copper clad kapton too.
I just have to do some thinking and reading based on other posts.
If I damage my laser printer, that's ok but it's the trip to the
computer store that hurts :)

Thanks
D from BC
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
I wonder if you could use a thermal WAX dot matrix printer,like Tektronix
made before they sold their printer division to Xerox.
Etchant won't touch the wax. Getting it off after etching could be messy.

Yes that works...I once worked in a company long ago that used some
sort of wax printer as a etch resist.
D from BC
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I suspect this is a Google item. ...But I'm gambling that it's kinda
novel and so posting here instead.

Proposed Idea: 1oz copper clad kapton film 8x11 run through laser
printer.

Purpose: Cheapass PCB making.

Problem: Don't know enough about laser printer operation.
(Some sort of electrostatic charging + toner and heat if I recall )

Without opening up a physics book, I am right that this won't work?
The laser printer will attempt to charge the metal foil and it just
dissipates. No localized charges.

No. It charges the drum, which picks up the toner, then transfers
it to the page like a printing press; then the page goes through the
fuser, which makes it stick.

The thing I'd worry about is getting your copper-clad to go through
the paper path.

Good Luck!
Rich
 
E

Ecnerwal

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Electronics Now" ran an article about a decade ago explaining how to do
this with copper flex material, so it does appear to work. The nicest thing
is that the toner is a good etchant resist. I've not heard of anyone
accomplishing this with rigid boards though. Back when I worked at HP,
several of us tried to put together a system using an inkjet printer and
waterproof inks. In the end it was just cheaper and easier to use PCB
Express, and the idea got dropped.

Getting into old tech where neither a working printer, nor a driver to
run it, are all that easy to come by:

Flat bed pen plotters.

Type 1, the "paper lays there and the printhead does all the moving"
type. Obviously easy.

Type 2, a particular flavor of HP, I'll remember the number wrong, no
doubt, perhaps a 7550? It moved the paper for one axis and the head for
the other axis, but the paper path was flat, so a rigid material (such
as a board) could be plotted.

In either case, a resist-ink pen got the job done.

These days directly cutting the board using a CNC router may be as easy,
it's dry, and it gets the job done in a single step. Noisy and messy,
though.
 
D

DJ Delorie

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
I know...but wait a minute...
Seems like you do know.. :)
....Spare a short answer? Maybe like : "Yes, works, needs coating, low
risk in laser printer."

Sorry, my short answer would be "I recall them talking about it, but I
didn't pay much attention since I don't do that".
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
No. It charges the drum, which picks up the toner, then transfers
it to the page like a printing press; then the page goes through the
fuser, which makes it stick.

The thing I'd worry about is getting your copper-clad to go through
the paper path.

Good Luck!
Rich

I just guessed the paper is charged...
<insert crazy person expression ;P >
I have yet to learn to fill in the blanks with......blanks.. :)
D from BC
 
M

me

Jan 1, 1970
0
Getting into old tech where neither a working printer, nor a driver to
run it, are all that easy to come by:

Flat bed pen plotters.

Type 1, the "paper lays there and the printhead does all the moving"
type. Obviously easy.

Type 2, a particular flavor of HP, I'll remember the number wrong, no
doubt, perhaps a 7550? It moved the paper for one axis and the head for
the other axis, but the paper path was flat, so a rigid material (such
as a board) could be plotted.

In either case, a resist-ink pen got the job done.

These days directly cutting the board using a CNC router may be as
easy, it's dry, and it gets the job done in a single step. Noisy and
messy, though.

HP 7475A, I still have one, it does print boards nicely, though I had to
make a frame to hold smaller boards.
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sorry, my short answer would be "I recall them talking about it, but I
didn't pay much attention since I don't do that".

It's like some topics on here... It's not interesting enough to know
what was discussed just only that it was discussed.. Make mental notes
and then if it becomes relevant someday, dig it up from the achieves..
:)
Thanks anyways... It's still helpful.
D from BC
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
HP 7475A, I still have one, it does print boards nicely, though I had to
make a frame to hold smaller boards.

Neat...
I might check out Ebay for one someday :)
D from BC
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
I just guessed the paper is charged...
<insert crazy person expression ;P >
I have yet to learn to fill in the blanks with......blanks.. :)
D from BC

Ooops maybe not so crazy...
Taken from http://www.howstuffworks.com/laser-printer2.htm
(Link posted by mrdarrett. Damn...I keep forgetting about this cool
site..)
"Before the paper rolls under the drum, it is given a negative charge
by the transfer corona wire (charged roller). This charge is stronger
than the negative charge of the electrostatic image, so the paper can
pull the toner powder away."

The media smoothness has me concerned as taken from my HP printer
manual. (See manual idea posted by Jim Yanik)
"Smoothness: The 135-157 g/m2 (36-42 lb) cardstock should have a
smoothness rating of 100-180 Sheffield"

The Cu clad kapton might be to smooth (not enough friction) for the
feeder.

Well ....off to the HomebrewPCB group suggested by DJ to get the
story..
D from BC
 
C

Christopher Ott

Jan 1, 1970
0
D from BC said:
Ohhhh yeah! :) This is getting so tempting to try...
I have the copper clad kapton too.
I just have to do some thinking and reading based on other posts.
If I damage my laser printer, that's ok but it's the trip to the
computer store that hurts :)

Thanks
D from BC

If I recall correctly, they said to tape the flex board to a standard piece
of paper (by its edges) to make it feed through the print path. The examples
looked pretty straightforward.

I'd be interested to hear how it works out.

Chris
 
J

James Arthur

Jan 1, 1970
0
The media smoothness has me concerned as taken from my HP printer
manual. (See manual idea posted by Jim Yanik)
"Smoothness: The 135-157 g/m2 (36-42 lb) cardstock should have a
smoothness rating of 100-180 Sheffield"

The Cu clad kapton might be to smooth (not enough friction) for the
feeder.

You could roughen the copper surface by giving it a quick wipe with
etchant. I fear however, the bug-a-boo is that the drum will get
quickly scratched--copper's a lot harder than paper.

Best of luck!
James Arthur
 
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