Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Safe? Bedini SSG 12v Lead Acid Battery Charger Desulfator

Chris M

Aug 7, 2014
22
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
22
I was talking with a moderator and the project I posted about a high voltage DC pulse unit to desulfate batteries was very unsafe. So I am looking for a different design now. I found this on youtube and I am interested in building one, but before I get into that, I want you guys' opinion to whether you think this is dangerous? I realize all electricity can be dangerous, depending on many factors. But in general, should I avoid building this? I am just looking for general opinions. Here is the 5 minute video:

 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Nov 28, 2011
8,393
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
8,393
That "design" is not as dangerous as a direct mains-powered circuit, but it isn't going to do anything useful. It may charge a small battery very slowly.

The guy doesn't understand basic physics. He is talking about high voltage being fed into the battery at low current. Because he can draw a spark between the "charger" lead and the battery terminal, he seems to have assumed that when he connects them together, significant energy will flow into the battery. This is not true.

The rotating part looks cool, and rotating things seem to be a common feature of "inventions" that don't work, such as "over-unity" devices, but it's unnecessary, both for what he wants to do, and for what his device will actually do.

It's not clear to me how a battery can be "desulfated". Do you have a clear description of how this is done?

Your earlier circuit is only dangerous because of the direct connection to high-voltage AC mains. If you replaced this direct powering arrangement with a large transformer, you might be able to produce the voltage and current you want. For example, have a look at this transformer: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/VPT12-20800/237-1350-ND/2090088. I guess you want to apply a voltage to the battery to desulfate it. You will need to find a clear definition of the nature of this voltage before we can make any useful suggestions for how to create it.

Technical information on commercial battery desulfators would be helpful too. Marketing information, not so much.

Edit: You might also want to Google do battery desulfators work? as there seem to be conflicting opinions and no hard evidence.
 
Last edited:

Chris M

Aug 7, 2014
22
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
22
Here is a magazine [Import Tuner] where they tested battery desulfators to see if they actually work [the verdict was yes]:
http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_1105_battery_desulfators_fact_fiction/

To put it in the simplest terms that I know how, as 12v batteries (cars, atv's, etc) age and become deeply discharged deeply too many times, they will often not take a charge anymore and people replace them. The science of it as I think I understand is that sulfate builds up on the lead plates, preventing them from passing (voltage/current?) and effectively ruining them.

Desulfators, in the most general sense, break up and dissolve or dislodge the sulfate from the lead plates, allowing the battery to be reclaimed. Not every battery can be saved, ie warped plates, shorted cells, but many Can be saved.

My understanding of why a typical battery charger won't charge a highly sulfated battery is the circuitry senses it is not taking a charge, so it quits trying. (Forgive my non-technical way of explaining this).

I have read that DC Pulses break up the sulfation. There are a lot of commercial desulfators. Most are hooked up to the battery itself and work from the battery's own power, but a charger is also required since the desulfator will eventually bring the battery down. Some of what I have read is these commercial units can take up to 4-6 weeks to bring the battery back.

That said, there are MANY circuit designs on the internet.

The reason I am interested in some designs over others is the amount of time it takes to reclaim a battery. 4-6 weeks is a long time, and I have 8+ batteries to try and fix. One commercial desulfator is $50 to $120 and on up, lots of them out there. Let's say I buy one for $75. They can't do multiple batteries at once. Let's say it takes 4 weeks to reclaim one. I am looking at 8+ months to process my batteries, or buying 8 desulfators, which financially defeats the purpose, you could buy new batteries cheaper than that!

I am not sure what circuit designs on google are "good" as you asked me for some circuit designs.

Googled the circuits: [battery desulfator circuit]
https://www.google.com/search?q=battery desulfator circuit&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS543US543&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=VYvzU4fGGJbtoATi_ICoAw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1024&bih=619

Here is a 2 minute youtube video that shows the before and after of two batteries, showing the lead plates 1) Sulfated, 2) after desulfation :
[Inside view of lead acid battery before and after desulfator]

By the way, this desulfation process can work on all types of batteries. I have read where one guy is buying up discarded forklift batteries, reconditioning them, and selling them for a LOT of money. I understand forklift batteries are pricey. There is a lot of discussion for this process for people who have batteries for solar systems for their home, as having so many batteries, it makes lots of sense to save batteries when possible, both a benefit to your wallet and the environment. Anyway...
 

Arouse1973

Adam
Dec 18, 2013
5,178
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
5,178
I believe desulfation works. You do this to some lithium batteries that have been stored for a while just by applying a low resistance load for a small amount of tme. But if the battery has been stored for too long and the sulphate has hardened too much then they can not be recovered.
Adam
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Nov 28, 2011
8,393
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
8,393
I believe desulfation works.
Yes, so do a lot of people. And a lot of other people don't! I think you would really have to do a proper test to know for sure.
You do this to some lithium batteries that have been stored for a while just by applying a low resistance load for a small amount of tme.
Lithium batteries don't use sulphuric acid do they?!
 

Chris M

Aug 7, 2014
22
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
22
It's not clear to me how a battery can be "desulfated". Do you have a clear description of how this is done?

Your earlier circuit is only dangerous because of the direct connection to high-voltage AC mains. If you replaced this direct powering arrangement with a large transformer, you might be able to produce the voltage and current you want. For example, have a look at this transformer: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/VPT12-20800/237-1350-ND/2090088. I guess you want to apply a voltage to the battery to desulfate it. You will need to find a clear definition of the nature of this voltage before we can make any useful suggestions for how to create it.

I will try to find out the nature of the voltage. My rudimentary understanding is that if the voltage is sent in pulses, rather than continuous, it breaks up the sulfation crystals. I don't know what voltage is required, nor amperage. And since I am not very knowledgeable about electronics, I don't know what shape or duration of pulse is necessary either.

The only thing I do know from the previous design I used, is that with the amount of amperage, it was heating up the batteries too fast. Steve (moderator here) told me in a pm that it was calculated at delivering a max of 11amps (That was with (2) 80 MFD and (1) 24 MFD Run Capacitors). Switching to just a 10 MFD Run capacitor, according to the author, would give you somewhere below 1 amp, and would not heat them up near as much, but also a slower process.
 
Last edited:

Arouse1973

Adam
Dec 18, 2013
5,178
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
5,178
Lithium Thionylchloride batteries sulphate from sulphate ions, it's a natural process which protects them from self discharge. It's a form of oxidisation.
Adam
 

davenn

Moderator
Sep 5, 2009
14,271
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
14,271
I was talking with a moderator and the project I posted about a high voltage DC pulse unit to desulfate batteries was very unsafe. So I am looking for a different design now. I found this on youtube and I am interested in building one, but before I get into that, I want you guys' opinion to whether you think this is dangerous? I realize all electricity can be dangerous, depending on many factors. But in general, should I avoid building this? I am just looking for general opinions. Here is the 5 minute video:



As Steve said to you in the other thread

the guy doing this project has no idea what he is doing ... its full of a lot of rubbish

You really shouldn't have started another thread discussing the same item
follow Steve's advice in the other thread and I will close this one

cheers
Dave
 

Chris M

Aug 7, 2014
22
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
22
Hello Dave, This thread is not a duplicate. The thread deleted was a different desulfator powered by 120 mains, and I did abandon that discussion, per Steve's advice. (I dismantled the actual project per Steve's advice also, and I am grateful for the advice - it was never my intention to endanger anyone including myself) This circuit was powered by a 12v supply. The reason I am looking at 12v power supplies for this type project is that is what Steve suggested I do. I am sorry if I have stepped wrong somewhere, I did not mean to.
 
Last edited:

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Jan 21, 2010
25,510
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
25,510
You probably also need to point out that I pointed you to some "proven" designs.
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Jan 21, 2010
25,510
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
25,510
My response to that first video was:

That video is full of Woo from about the 4 minute mark. It may be generating high voltage spikes which have an effect in desulphating a battery, but he (at least) really has no idea what he's doing.

Here is a link to a magazine article that describes a well researched circuit. You can spend a few bucks to read it online or you can try to find a library that has this magazine (probably not much luck of that outside Australia). Alternatively maybe you can find someone with their own collection (you're after July 2009).

It's available as a kit here.

Here is someone who has described the circuit and working of an earlier version of the circuit. I dare say this would do the job and it also shows how to use it with a regular charger. You may need to use google translate to assist you with that page :) (see here)

(some time between posts 7 and 8 in this thread)
 

Chris M

Aug 7, 2014
22
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
22
You're right Steve, you did. I appreciate it. I have made a mess of this topic. It would be fine with me if a moderator deletes the whole thing. I am sorry.
 
Top