schematics and PCB design software. what's best?

[Joerg]

I must be getting better at this, then, because I usually think of the
SOT23 size as "big".

Yep, I had a flex circuit design recently where I turned a transistor
that only came in SOT23 around and around. Because compared to the
others it looked like a boulder.

But then again, I'm the one who's insane enough to hand-solder 01005
parts.

That is insane ;-)

I already need 3x glasses for 0402 :-(

 

[DJ Delorie]

That is insane ;-)

But possible! I have proof: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/first.html

I already need 3x glasses for 0402 :-(

I use a 3.5x magnifying visor, but I still have to verify 01005's
under the scope. I use a 2x for my usual parts (0603, tssop, sot323).

 

[Joerg]

But possible! I have proof: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/first.html

Nice. But as grampa says, one sapling does not make no forest yet ;-)

I use a 3.5x magnifying visor, but I still have to verify 01005's
under the scope. I use a 2x for my usual parts (0603, tssop, sot323).

Yeah, I find myself increasingly having to use the 3x even on 0603
stuff. Especially at clients after a long trip. There must be something
to that "over the hill" talk, at least when it comes to eyesight.

 

[Robert Baer]

JeffM wrote:

Fernando Peral Pérez wrote:

i'm using OrCAD[...]I'm thinking of changing.


Joerg wrote:

cadsoftusa.com


Cadsoft used to be in the CAD business.
They are now also in the DRM business.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...yrights+Copyrights+restrict-the-use-*-*-*-*-*


Before re-using anyone else's library,
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...less+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened

find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.


That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy. Not an issue
for me since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere. Copying
stuff and then using it for commercial purposes is, well, not quite
within my understanding of ethics and etiquette.

This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users since it does
inconvenience hobby users. But ok, they've got to do something
against hackers ripping them off. I doubt that their software
engineers are working for free. Unlike many other CAD packages Eagle
does not require those dreaded dongles. That is a serious plus in my
eyes.

BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle. Other comnpanies
want serious Dollars for a new library. Cadsoft lets you download it
for free. It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by
users. Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt and
thoroughly check things like footprints before using a part from a
foreign library. I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.

Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as
OrCad. That was one serious motivator for me to switch. But the main
motivator was the support which is absolutely stellar.


Some free quality software?


Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
Each was created by engineers "scratching an itch".


My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed.
I haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again.
Support is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.

Over the years, i tried various versions of Eagle, and was never
able to get any one of them to work; at best it was impossible to copy
and/or place any simple part (spell resistor, please).

It just takes a little practice. For example, in Eagle-speak cut means
copy and so on. For me the switch from OrCad to Eagle was similar to
learning to drive a car in Scotland, with right-hand steering. After a
couple of days it felt comfortable.

Placing is easy. Click ADD, then pick a resistor you like from the
discretes lib or from the SMT lib. If you have the German edition it
would be called Widerstand. You can select EU style or US style, and all
kinds of packages.

** *None* of those supposed functions worked in any shape, size or form.
Most of the time i was lucky that the damn program installed inthe
first place.

C'mon, it ain't that hard. Mine does run on the Win2K PC but I can't
sell you my PC because I need it. And I am not going to retire anytime
soon ;-)

** You do not have to sell the PC; just clone the HD and remove what you
do not want me to see, and send me that.
I will put it in a removeable HD kit carrier so i can swap it in when
i need to run Eagle.
What would be your asking price?

 

[Rene Tschaggelar]

Did they outsource that also?

They are thinking omitting the useability testing
was a great idea. The developpers keep telling
the testers how to operate the software, a concept
that is outdated. What a pity. The technology
behing wouldn't be that bad.

Rene

 

[Joerg]

Joerg wrote:

JeffM wrote:

Fernando Peral Pérez wrote:

i'm using OrCAD[...]I'm thinking of changing.


Joerg wrote:

cadsoftusa.com


Cadsoft used to be in the CAD business.
They are now also in the DRM business.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...yrights+Copyrights+restrict-the-use-*-*-*-*-*


Before re-using anyone else's library,
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...less+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened

find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.


That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy. Not an issue
for me since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere. Copying
stuff and then using it for commercial purposes is, well, not quite
within my understanding of ethics and etiquette.

This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users since it does
inconvenience hobby users. But ok, they've got to do something
against hackers ripping them off. I doubt that their software
engineers are working for free. Unlike many other CAD packages Eagle
does not require those dreaded dongles. That is a serious plus in my
eyes.

BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle. Other comnpanies
want serious Dollars for a new library. Cadsoft lets you download it
for free. It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by
users. Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt and
thoroughly check things like footprints before using a part from a
foreign library. I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.

Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as
OrCad. That was one serious motivator for me to switch. But the main
motivator was the support which is absolutely stellar.


Some free quality software?


Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
Each was created by engineers "scratching an itch".


My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed.
I haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again.
Support is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.

Over the years, i tried various versions of Eagle, and was never
able to get any one of them to work; at best it was impossible to
copy and/or place any simple part (spell resistor, please).

It just takes a little practice. For example, in Eagle-speak cut means
copy and so on. For me the switch from OrCad to Eagle was similar to
learning to drive a car in Scotland, with right-hand steering. After a
couple of days it felt comfortable.

Placing is easy. Click ADD, then pick a resistor you like from the
discretes lib or from the SMT lib. If you have the German edition it
would be called Widerstand. You can select EU style or US style, and
all kinds of packages.

** *None* of those supposed functions worked in any shape, size or form.
Most of the time i was lucky that the damn program installed inthe
first place.

Hmm, that sounds more like a training issue. If the program itself fired
up then you had it installed properly. Meaning if I'd send you my HD
you'd see the same thing.

** You do not have to sell the PC; just clone the HD and remove what you
do not want me to see, and send me that.
I will put it in a removeable HD kit carrier so i can swap it in when
i need to run Eagle.
What would be your asking price?

I am not the expert in mirroring hard drive and this is a laptop where I
cannot install a temporary 2nd drive.

Eagle really does require to read the booklet cover to cover. Or if you
have the free hobby version the pdf file. I had the "luck" of being
decommissioned with a serious backache for two days so I used that time
to study up on it. Another option is to find someone in your area and do
a small design together. I am pretty certain that there will be Eagle
users in the ham radio operator community.

Again, if you click on the Eagle icon, the control panel opens and you
can load an example schematic you'd have a working setup no different
from mine.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

I am not the expert in mirroring hard drive and this is a laptop where I
cannot install a temporary 2nd drive.

You can, with an external drive case. radio shack even has a 2.5"
drive case with a USB interface, but it needs two USB ports to power the
drive and the interface. They start at $10, plus shipping.

<http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/category_tlc.asp?CatId=2777>

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[krw]

You can, with an external drive case. radio shack even has a 2.5"
drive case with a USB interface, but it needs two USB ports to power the
drive and the interface. They start at $10, plus shipping.

Hmm. How do you mirror to a USB drive?

<http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/category_tlc.asp?CatId=2777>

Newegg has bunches of 'em too. I bought a couple 3.5" external USB
cases with both SATA and PATA internal interfaces. I have unused
desktop drives (75GB PATA and 160GB SATA) in them. I was quite
surprised how fast the drives are on USB.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Hmm. How do you mirror to a USB drive?


Newegg has bunches of 'em too. I bought a couple 3.5" external USB
cases with both SATA and PATA internal interfaces. I have unused
desktop drives (75GB PATA and 160GB SATA) in them. I was quite
surprised how fast the drives are on USB.

Make an image file, like you do when you create a bootable install
CDROM or DVD?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Joerg]

Make an image file, like you do when you create a bootable install
CDROM or DVD?

Most likely that does not help Robert anyway. CAD software often
configures itself according to what it finds during the install. CAD is
much more demanding on the graphics card that other software. So even if
I'd send him a HD chances are it will not work right. But installation
of Eagle from a downloaded file (or the CD if you bought a license) is a
breeze. Half a cup of coffee and it's done.

 

[Nico Coesel]

Did they outsource that also?

I think so. They didn't even bother to revise the keyboard shortcuts
to modern standards. Just use the same as the Protel Autotrax software
did in 1988 (yes 1988).

 

[gem1144aaa]

Hi
if u r using ORcad 9.x or 10.x Then u r driving a RollsRoyes Of all the electronic EDA if not availble to u then u can try the protel99 it's a mercedis too or u can try the proteus it's afantastic package but u r in a velvet luctury jail u cann't either export neither import desigens from any other packages.

 

[krw]

Make an image file, like you do when you create a bootable install
CDROM or DVD?

Ok, but that's not mirroring (RAID 0).

 

[Marra]

You can usually pick something up cheap on ebay.

 

[Joerg]

I think so. They didn't even bother to revise the keyboard shortcuts
to modern standards. Just use the same as the Protel Autotrax software
did in 1988 (yes 1988).

Autotrax was pretty good. I guess then you might as well keep using it.

 

[brett_h]

Hello, Michael!
You wrote on Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:14:15 GMT:

MAT> Joerg wrote:
??>>
??>> I am not the expert in mirroring hard drive and this is a laptop where
??>> I cannot install a temporary 2nd drive.

MAT> You can, with an external drive case. radio shack even has a 2.5"
MAT> drive case with a USB interface, but it needs two USB ports to power
MAT> the drive and the interface. They start at $10, plus shipping.

MAT> <http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/category_tlc.asp?Cat
MAT> Id=2777>



Eagle, can be installed to and run from a USB flash drive. Put it on a key
chain, carry it anywhere. For better speed, limit the number of libraries in
the (user specified) "lbr" vault at one time. This is also true for HD
installation.

Eagle is cheap, almost as easy to learn as a bad habit, and it fits on a
keychain. Zowee! Of course some people don't learn bad habits, and that
ain't necessarily a bad thing. Eagle is somewhat sloppy the way it works,
but mostly predictable. You don't have to pay an exorbitant sum to use it,
and you aren't burdened by a GByte installation with a near to brick-wall
learning curve. If CADSOFT listens to all the wonderful ideas and bitches
I've left on their suggestions forum, then one day they'll be GreAT! (but I
won't hold my breath)

With best regards, Brett Holden. E-mail: [email protected]
ut is out of place. move it to spell "bellsouth" to reply directly

 

[Robert Latest]

I don't think I can be locked out of my own
docs when the only version I have and use is licensed by Cadsoft.

Yes you can, that's the crazy thing. If someone, at some time, copy-and
pasted something into a schematic, board, or lib, and you copy stuff from
those files into your stuff, going from version to version, all seems fine.
But if any of the copies of Eagle used in the process was a cracked one and
its serial number gets into CadSoft's database of cracked serials, some day
an Eagle version may come along that won't open your documents any more.
Each Eagle document seems to include a list of serial numbers of all copies
of Eagle that it was opened with which even progresses through copy and
pastes of partial files.

Even if you never received stuff from third parties and only work with legal
copies of Eagle (like I do), you might some day be locked out of your docs
when someone got hold of some discarded ancient install CD with your serial
number and that copy got cracked.

It's not like the Eagle program can somehow detect that it has been cracked
and put a marker into its files. All the program does is put its serial #
into the files, and check the list of serial #'s in each file it opens
against a compiled-list of cracked numbers.

Cadsoft's support goes way beyond that. Whenever I had issues, usually
with netlist ports to other companies' CAD systems, I received a
detailed response from a Cadsoft engineer in under 24 hours.

Same here.

robert

 

[Joerg]

Joerg wrote:




Yes you can, that's the crazy thing. If someone, at some time, copy-and
pasted something into a schematic, board, or lib, and you copy stuff from
those files into your stuff, going from version to version, all seems fine.
But if any of the copies of Eagle used in the process was a cracked one and
its serial number gets into CadSoft's database of cracked serials, some day
an Eagle version may come along that won't open your documents any more.
Each Eagle document seems to include a list of serial numbers of all copies
of Eagle that it was opened with which even progresses through copy and
pastes of partial files.

Even if you never received stuff from third parties and only work with legal
copies of Eagle (like I do), you might some day be locked out of your docs
when someone got hold of some discarded ancient install CD with your serial
number and that copy got cracked.

It's not like the Eagle program can somehow detect that it has been cracked
and put a marker into its files. All the program does is put its serial #
into the files, and check the list of serial #'s in each file it opens
against a compiled-list of cracked numbers.

Are you sure? That would be a rather sub-optimal way to combat hacking.
But it is still unlikely to happen here because I do not discard any
software carelessly.

Same here.

To be fair, I have yet to see that level of support on other CAD
software. Or any other software for that matter.

 

[Joerg]

Hello, Michael!
You wrote on Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:14:15 GMT:

MAT> Joerg wrote:
??>>
??>> I am not the expert in mirroring hard drive and this is a laptop where
??>> I cannot install a temporary 2nd drive.

MAT> You can, with an external drive case. radio shack even has a 2.5"
MAT> drive case with a USB interface, but it needs two USB ports to power
MAT> the drive and the interface. They start at $10, plus shipping.

MAT> <http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/category_tlc.asp?Cat
MAT> Id=2777>



Eagle, can be installed to and run from a USB flash drive. Put it on a key
chain, carry it anywhere. For better speed, limit the number of libraries in
the (user specified) "lbr" vault at one time. This is also true for HD
installation.

Eagle is cheap, almost as easy to learn as a bad habit, and it fits on a
keychain. Zowee! Of course some people don't learn bad habits, and that
ain't necessarily a bad thing. Eagle is somewhat sloppy the way it works,
but mostly predictable. You don't have to pay an exorbitant sum to use it,
and you aren't burdened by a GByte installation with a near to brick-wall
learning curve. If CADSOFT listens to all the wonderful ideas and bitches
I've left on their suggestions forum, then one day they'll be GreAT! (but I
won't hold my breath)

Like providing a hierarchical sheet structure. Ain't gonna happen for
version 5 though :-(((

But it seems we will get additional attribute fields. Ah, what a relief.

 

[JeffM]

All the program does is put its serial # into the files,
and check the list of serial #'s in each file it opens

Are you sure? That would be a rather sub-optimal way to combat hacking.

It sounds like you are saying that it hasn't been know for decades
that DRM is a really stupid idea (even at its best).
(Like Dubya) there are a lot of people that see themselves as Pit
Bulls
and who don't see *refusing to let go of a bad idea* as a fault.
http://www.google.com/search?q=site...tle:False-Positives+OR+intitle:Is-Non-Genuine
http://www.google.com/search?q=of.a...ndows+how.many.ever.subject.themselves.to.WGA

Again: DRM only affects the people you least want to piss off:
Your PAYING customers.
Making DRM surreptitious is just twisting the knife.