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schematics and PCB design software. what's best?

  • Thread starter Fernando Peral Pérez
  • Start date
F

Fernando Peral Pérez

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi.

i'm using OrCAD for mid-low complexity design. I'm thinking of changing.
What alternatives there are? what are the most used form professional
development? Some free quality software?

thanks
 
D

D from BC

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi.

i'm using OrCAD for mid-low complexity design. I'm thinking of changing.
What alternatives there are? what are the most used form professional
development? Some free quality software?

thanks

I won't go any lower than MS-Paint :)
D from BC
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fernando said:
Hi.

i'm using OrCAD for mid-low complexity design. I'm thinking of changing.
What alternatives there are? what are the most used form professional
development? Some free quality software?

I switched from OrCad a few years ago. Tried the free demo version from
this company, liked it and bought a license:
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/

Also, the manager for their US office (Ed) is fluent in Spanish as far
as I know, in case that's easier. There is also a short manual for an
older version in Spanish on the download area, the new version isn't
much different.
 
J

JeffM

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fernando said:
i'm using OrCAD[...]I'm thinking of changing.
Joerg said:
cadsoftusa.com
Cadsoft used to be in the CAD business.
They are now also in the DRM business.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...yrights+Copyrights+restrict-the-use-*-*-*-*-*

Before re-using anyone else's library,
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...less+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.
Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
Each was created by engineers "scratching an itch".
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
JeffM said:
Fernando said:
i'm using OrCAD[...]I'm thinking of changing.
cadsoftusa.com

Cadsoft used to be in the CAD business.
They are now also in the DRM business.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...yrights+Copyrights+restrict-the-use-*-*-*-*-*

Before re-using anyone else's library,
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...less+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.

That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy. Not an issue for
me since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere. Copying stuff
and then using it for commercial purposes is, well, not quite within my
understanding of ethics and etiquette.

This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users since it does
inconvenience hobby users. But ok, they've got to do something against
hackers ripping them off. I doubt that their software engineers are
working for free. Unlike many other CAD packages Eagle does not require
those dreaded dongles. That is a serious plus in my eyes.

BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle. Other comnpanies
want serious Dollars for a new library. Cadsoft lets you download it for
free. It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by users.
Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt and thoroughly
check things like footprints before using a part from a foreign library.
I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.

Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as OrCad.
That was one serious motivator for me to switch. But the main motivator
was the support which is absolutely stellar.
Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
Each was created by engineers "scratching an itch".

My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed. I
haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again. Support
is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.
 
M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
On Jun 7, 5:34 pm, Joerg

[.....]
My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed. I
haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again. Support
is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.

Orcad: Basically none
gEDA: Basically none

I've learned the old DOS orcad. I may learn gEDA one of these days
but the DOS Orcad still does what I need.
 
D

DJ Delorie

Jan 1, 1970
0
MooseFET said:
Orcad: Basically none
gEDA: Basically none

This either means (1) you think commercial support is dicey also (I
agree), or (2) you've never asked for help on the gEDA mailing list.

Or both.

For many open source projects, however, if you consider the mailing
list to be support then yes, it's dicey - because you're asking
volunteers to spend their time on your problems, usually without
giving enough back to make it worth their time. However, you can
usually pay for commercial support for open source projects, which is
no worse than commercial support for proprietary software.

Red Hat, for example, has very good support for what is essentially an
open source project. Would you be willing to pay for commercial
support for gEDA? Isn't it nice that you can pay YOUR choice of
contractor, instead of relying on the manufacturer to support it?
 
J

JeffM

Jan 1, 1970
0
JeffM said:
Cadsoft [is] now also in the DRM business[...]

Before re-using anyone else's library,
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...less+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.
Joerg said:
That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy.
*Specifically* it's about the software not warning a **legit** user
AS HE IS DOING SOMETHING **in good faith**
that he is about to do something against the rules
then LATER finding that he has been locked out of his work product.
Not an issue for me
since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere.
The only way to avoid this nonsense--besides avoiding Cadsoft
entirely.
Copying stuff and then using it for commercial purposes
is, well, not quite within my understanding of ethics and etiquette.
Library parts?? C'mon.
This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users
since it does inconvenience hobby users.
One of the big selling points of EAGLE (years back)
was that you could distribute your files
and others could use the demo version to *view* and/or *print* them.
Really great for hobbyists (and the pros who publish projects)
--until Cadsoft shot themselves in the foot.
But ok, they've got to do something against hackers ripping them off.
I doubt that their software engineers are working for free.
COMPLETELY evades the point.
As usual with DRM, the crackers find ways around the limitations
and the legit, fully-paid customers are the ones who get screwed.
Unlike many other CAD packages
Eagle does not require those dreaded dongles.
That is a serious plus in my eyes.
I used to agree
--until they started spitting on their paid customers in other ways.
BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle.
I used to agree.
Other [companies] want serious Dollars for a new library.
Cadsoft lets you download it for free.
....if you want to play Russian Roulette.
It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by users.
Again: How do you know that the library isn't infected?
How do you get assurance BEFORE THE FACT
that you won't be locked out of your documents by using it?
Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt
and thoroughly check things like footprints
before using a part from a foreign library.
The *least* of your problems with an EAGLE *.LBR these days.
I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.
....and it is now the ONLY way to *assure* no DRM madness.
Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as OrCad.
Amen.

That was one serious motivator for me to switch.
Amen.

But the main motivator was the support which is absolutely stellar.
If, by "support" you mean **a newsgroup** (2 groups, actually): Yes.

If you mean **A software company that helps fully-paid users
to get past company-induced problems (which they didn't sign up for
when they plunked down their cash)**, I say "Hogwash".
Markus' sad story is testament.
..
..
Fernando said:
Some free quality software?
Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
Each was created by engineers [to] "scratching an itch".
My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed.
I haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again.
....until Cadsoft pulls its other hand from behind its back
and reveals its next even-more-draconian edict??

ISTM that in-the-know folks are getting tired of all this
Dubious Restrictions Malarkey
and are now willing to consider open source to get away from it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...inds.of.freedom.for.the.users.of.the.software

....and the *Eschew Brokenware* thing is moving beyond individuals:
http://science.slashdot.org/article...ent&threshold=5&simpledesign=1&lowbandwidth=1
..
..
Support is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.
When compared to the *old* Cadsoft, I would say "Perhaps".

When compared to the *new* DRM-laden Cadsoft,
which is in the process of becoming like so many other software
companies,
I would say "It's a wash".
I find that with software of all stripes, you end up relying on
volunteers A LOT.
 
R

Robert Latest

Jan 1, 1970
0
JeffM said:
Again: How do you know that the library isn't infected?
How do you get assurance BEFORE THE FACT
that you won't be locked out of your documents by using it?

By opening the freshly-downloaded library, exporting it as a script and
re-importing it.

It is easy to protect yourself against Eagle's anti-piracy policy, but you
have to know how and when to do it.

I agree, though, that those who experience the bad surprises are exclusively
the legitimate paying customers. I don't think their policy has stopped
anyone from ripping off their product. Who needs to pirate EAGLE anyhow,
seeing that there is a free version for hobbyists and a fine-grained palette
of differently priced options for various levels of professional use? People
who design boards with more than 4 layers or larger than Euro certainly can
afford the ~1000 bucks for a decent CAD package.
If you mean **A software company that helps fully-paid users
to get past company-induced problems (which they didn't sign up for
when they plunked down their cash)**, I say "Hogwash".
Markus' sad story is testament.

Yes.

robert
 
M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
This either means (1) you think commercial support is dicey also (I
agree),

For Orcad I said "none" not to mean "dicey" but to mean something more
like "none". Orcad got bought out. It was a little after that that
they brought out PCB386. It was on PCB386 that I learned not to
bother calling because they couldn't actually provide any real help.
Once you got past the "Is it plugged in questions?" they had nothing
more to offer.

I was trying to layout a PCB. Because of a bug in PCB386, everytime I
added a trace, the program would remove one at random somewhere else
on the PCB.

[....]
Red Hat, for example, has very good support for what is essentially an
open source project. Would you be willing to pay for commercial
support for gEDA?

Currently the answer is "no". I'm not doing my own PCB layouts. If I
start doing my own layouts again, going with gEDA is the most likely
path.

Isn't it nice that you can pay YOUR choice of
contractor, instead of relying on the manufacturer to >support it?

Yes this is a good thing.
 
R

Rene Tschaggelar

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fernando said:
Hi.

i'm using OrCAD for mid-low complexity design. I'm thinking of changing.
What alternatives there are? what are the most used form professional
development? Some free quality software?

Altium ? (Protel, DXP and such)
They evelove the package at a rather quick
pace, but more often than not stick to the
second and third-intuitive solution. Meaning
it is workable but the learning curve is
steep and is kept being this way.

Rene
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
JeffM said:
JeffM said:
Cadsoft [is] now also in the DRM business[...]

Before re-using anyone else's library,
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...less+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.
That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy.

*Specifically* it's about the software not warning a **legit** user
AS HE IS DOING SOMETHING **in good faith**
that he is about to do something against the rules
then LATER finding that he has been locked out of his work product.

Yes, they should have provided a mechanism that instantly beeps. AFAIK
they now do but couldn't avoid that people have old files containing
hacked stuff that used to work in 3.51 or whatever and now don't in
4.16. That's because this copy protection stuff wasn't implemented in
their older versions.
The only way to avoid this nonsense--besides avoiding Cadsoft
entirely.



Library parts?? C'mon.

I mentioned further below that library parts are freely distributed. In
contrast to many, many other CAD packages where companies use that as a
cash cow (and I consequently do not buy their CAD).
One of the big selling points of EAGLE (years back)
was that you could distribute your files
and others could use the demo version to *view* and/or *print* them.
Really great for hobbyists (and the pros who publish projects)
--until Cadsoft shot themselves in the foot.

Yes said:
COMPLETELY evades the point.
As usual with DRM, the crackers find ways around the limitations
and the legit, fully-paid customers are the ones who get screwed.

Nope. If you use a hacked version for hobby that's one issue. But if you
use a hacked version, say, as a consultant it'll be only a matter of
time until a big egg flies into your face. That happens the instant a
client wants to open your files on his legal copy. Now that would be
quite an embarrassment, wouldn't it?

Think of it like a bank. A robber manages to pry their money, runs off
into the street and thinks he has it made. Gets into his car and POOF,
indelible ink oozes all over the bills.
I used to agree
--until they started spitting on their paid customers in other ways.

Any more gripes besides this copyright thing? I don't have any, other
than the fact that they don't seem to understand how important a
hierarchical sheet structure is.

BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle.

I used to agree.

Other [companies] want serious Dollars for a new library.
Cadsoft lets you download it for free.

...if you want to play Russian Roulette.

It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by users.

Again: How do you know that the library isn't infected?
How do you get assurance BEFORE THE FACT
that you won't be locked out of your documents by using it?

AFAIK it's not libraries but schematics that get infected. Also, the
libraries are posted on the Cadsoft server as a bonus service. Even with
the freeware version you are allowed to use them. I never ran into this
copyright issue but I'd assume anything infected just would not load
into my licensed version. I don't think I can be locked out of my own
docs when the only version I have and use is licensed by Cadsoft.
The *least* of your problems with an EAGLE *.LBR these days.

Again, for some reason I never had a lib problem. Ever. Other than
footprints I didn't like. But since I don't do layouts this doesn't
matter that much.
...and it is now the ONLY way to *assure* no DRM madness.

I doubt that any of the libs on the Cadsoft server are infested.
If, by "support" you mean **a newsgroup** (2 groups, actually): Yes.

It's more than two. English isn't the only language on the planet ;-)

Cadsoft's support goes way beyond that. Whenever I had issues, usually
with netlist ports to other companies' CAD systems, I received a
detailed response from a Cadsoft engineer in under 24 hours. Considering
that there is a 9h time zone difference that is nothing short of
remarkable. And this is not the usual "Is it plugged in?" support, they
provided a detailed answer that allowed me to fix the problem.

The best: Their staff participates in the forums and they speak more
than one language. More than once have they offered "Hey, if the
schematic is confidential just send it directly to us and we'll analyze
the problem outside this forum". Recently one even offered support in
Spanish, realizing that the poster might feel more comfortable there.

If you mean **A software company that helps fully-paid users
to get past company-induced problems (which they didn't sign up for
when they plunked down their cash)**, I say "Hogwash".
Markus' sad story is testament.
.
.
Fernando said:
Some free quality software?


Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
Each was created by engineers [to] "scratching an itch".

My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed.
I haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again.

...until Cadsoft pulls its other hand from behind its back
and reveals its next even-more-draconian edict??

ISTM that in-the-know folks are getting tired of all this
Dubious Restrictions Malarkey
and are now willing to consider open source to get away from it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...inds.of.freedom.for.the.users.of.the.software

...and the *Eschew Brokenware* thing is moving beyond individuals:
http://science.slashdot.org/article...ent&threshold=5&simpledesign=1&lowbandwidth=1
.
.
Support is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.

When compared to the *old* Cadsoft, I would say "Perhaps".

When compared to the *new* DRM-laden Cadsoft,
which is in the process of becoming like so many other software
companies,
I would say "It's a wash".
I find that with software of all stripes, you end up relying on
volunteers A LOT.

That will always be the case. But the only time I found a level of
support like with Cadsoft was back in the old OrCad days. Got stuck with
a printer driver in Europe, called the company on Oregon. Suddenly
realized that it must be after hours there. Lo and behold someone picked
up anyhow and she said she is just cleaning up but will relay my
message, plus that I should explain it in a brief fax. Next day I had my
answer, three days later a disk with new printer driver edit utilities.
From what I understand those days seem to be gone.
 
N

Nico Coesel

Jan 1, 1970
0
Rene Tschaggelar said:
Altium ? (Protel, DXP and such)
They evelove the package at a rather quick
pace, but more often than not stick to the
second and third-intuitive solution. Meaning
it is workable but the learning curve is
steep and is kept being this way.

I've worked with Altium and it just sucks! Too many pop-ups and a very
non-intuitive interface. I assume it is made by people who have
absolutely no clue what the program is being used for.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nico said:
I've worked with Altium and it just sucks! Too many pop-ups and a very
non-intuitive interface. I assume it is made by people who have
absolutely no clue what the program is being used for.

Did they outsource that also?
 
R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
JeffM said:
Fernando said:
i'm using OrCAD[...]I'm thinking of changing.
cadsoftusa.com

Cadsoft used to be in the CAD business.
They are now also in the DRM business.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...yrights+Copyrights+restrict-the-use-*-*-*-*-*


Before re-using anyone else's library,
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...less+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened

find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.

That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy. Not an issue for
me since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere. Copying stuff
and then using it for commercial purposes is, well, not quite within my
understanding of ethics and etiquette.

This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users since it does
inconvenience hobby users. But ok, they've got to do something against
hackers ripping them off. I doubt that their software engineers are
working for free. Unlike many other CAD packages Eagle does not require
those dreaded dongles. That is a serious plus in my eyes.

BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle. Other comnpanies
want serious Dollars for a new library. Cadsoft lets you download it for
free. It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by users.
Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt and thoroughly
check things like footprints before using a part from a foreign library.
I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.

Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as OrCad.
That was one serious motivator for me to switch. But the main motivator
was the support which is absolutely stellar.
Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
Each was created by engineers "scratching an itch".

My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed. I
haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again. Support
is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.
Over the years, i tried various versions of Eagle, and was never able
to get any one of them to work; at best it was impossible to copy and/or
place any simple part (spell resistor, please).
So Eagle is totally out of the picture for me *unless* someone would
create from scratch, a Win2K hard drive with a completely WORKING
version of Eagle, and sell that to me.
DipTrace (if i remember the name correctly) is *almost* exactly what
i can use; it has some very nice features. But for small parts (SOT23-5
etc) it is not useful.
 
J

JeffM

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Baer wrote:
[Massive amount of unnecessarily re-posted crap snipped]
Over the years, i tried various versions of Eagle,
and was never able to get any one of them to work;
at best it was impossible to copy and/or place any simple part[...]
EAGLE *does* have an un-Windows-like interface,
but Baer is the only person I can remember who couldn't get it going.
DipTrace (if i remember the name correctly)
I would be surprized if that was the case.
is *almost* exactly what i can use; it has some very nice features.
But for small parts (SOT23-5 etc) it is not useful.
This is typical of the comments on DipTrace:
--well, those that aren't SPAM by the author.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci....g-else-to-stand-on+ww-ww+qq+not-a-nice-choice

It appears to be someone's hobby
and is hardly a replacement for OrCAD.
 
D

DJ Delorie

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Baer said:
But for small parts (SOT23-5 etc) it is not useful.

I must be getting better at this, then, because I usually think of the
SOT23 size as "big".

But then again, I'm the one who's insane enough to hand-solder 01005
parts.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert said:
Joerg said:
JeffM said:
Fernando Peral Pérez wrote:

i'm using OrCAD[...]I'm thinking of changing.


Joerg wrote:

cadsoftusa.com


Cadsoft used to be in the CAD business.
They are now also in the DRM business.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...yrights+Copyrights+restrict-the-use-*-*-*-*-*


Before re-using anyone else's library,
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...less+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened

find out how to un-DRM the documents that are created with it.

That's about schematics generated with a cracked copy. Not an issue
for me since I never copy parts of schematics from anywhere. Copying
stuff and then using it for commercial purposes is, well, not quite
within my understanding of ethics and etiquette.

This has generated some noise among Cadsoft users since it does
inconvenience hobby users. But ok, they've got to do something against
hackers ripping them off. I doubt that their software engineers are
working for free. Unlike many other CAD packages Eagle does not
require those dreaded dongles. That is a serious plus in my eyes.

BTW libraries are another serious upside for Eagle. Other comnpanies
want serious Dollars for a new library. Cadsoft lets you download it
for free. It's give and take, with most libraries contributed by
users. Which also means you must take them with a grain of salt and
thoroughly check things like footprints before using a part from a
foreign library. I adopted the habit of creating my own parts.

Eagle is also remarkably inexpensive compared to products such as
OrCad. That was one serious motivator for me to switch. But the main
motivator was the support which is absolutely stellar.
Some free quality software?


Investigate gEDA and KiCAD.
Each was created by engineers "scratching an itch".

My experience with open source software is, to put it mildly, mixed. I
haven't tried these two yet but I am not going to switch again.
Support is also a dicey topic when it comes to open source products.
Over the years, i tried various versions of Eagle, and was never able
to get any one of them to work; at best it was impossible to copy and/or
place any simple part (spell resistor, please).


It just takes a little practice. For example, in Eagle-speak cut means
copy and so on. For me the switch from OrCad to Eagle was similar to
learning to drive a car in Scotland, with right-hand steering. After a
couple of days it felt comfortable.

Placing is easy. Click ADD, then pick a resistor you like from the
discretes lib or from the SMT lib. If you have the German edition it
would be called Widerstand. You can select EU style or US style, and all
kinds of packages.

So Eagle is totally out of the picture for me *unless* someone would
create from scratch, a Win2K hard drive with a completely WORKING
version of Eagle, and sell that to me.


C'mon, it ain't that hard. Mine does run on the Win2K PC but I can't
sell you my PC because I need it. And I am not going to retire anytime
soon ;-)

DipTrace (if i remember the name correctly) is *almost* exactly what i
can use; it has some very nice features. But for small parts (SOT23-5
etc) it is not useful.


Don't know that one. Eagle can do pretty much anything, even the teeny
tiny SC-75 packages. But I usually don't do layouts myself.
 
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