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Shredder rewire - 230Vac motor with four wires

kipper

Oct 5, 2021
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Hello
This motor belongs to a Rymans cross cut shredder. The (not brilliantly) laid out electronics board has developed a fault ( nothing obvious like leaking electrolytics) and I want to rewire with a DPDT switch to provide on/off and reverse

Would someone be kind enough to have a look at the pictures and suggest how this motor can be wired?

Thanks

kipper
 

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Kabelsalat

Jul 5, 2011
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Looks like one pair goes to the stator and the other pair goes to the rotor. Identify those pairs and I assume they're supposed to be connected in series (if it's the motor I think it is). Just use diode test to identify each pairs.

NB: Important - if you've missed the original coupling, the rotation direction can goes either way so be sure there are no equipment/tools at the shaft that can get broken because of that. Also don't let the motor run without load.

The rotation can be changed by swapping the polarity for either rotor windings or rotor windings.
 

73's de Edd

Aug 21, 2015
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Sir kipper . . . . .

Just put in 6 hrs of the weekend on our FELLOWES DS12ci HEAVEE- DOODIE . . . .shredder and that's being HEAVEE on the HEAVEE. . . . . . . .GAWD . . . . what a solid BUILT mechanical MONSTER . . . . its mother just HAD to have been an auto crusher.

You definitely SHOULD have shown a couple of good photos of all the electronics, as all that I can confirm from that motor is that it is brushed and you said 220V, but unknown if that is THEN being converted to DC. I'm expecting a big HEAVY Ice Cube profile relay, used for doing the direction reversing function.

Meanwhile . . . . in the interim . . . .

Here is the MOST amassed info that you are EVER, EVER going to find on PAPER SHREDDERS . . . . . and . . . . . at no extra charge . . .( a freebie 1992 Plymouth Voyager wiring diagram.)

TECHNO REFERENCING . . . . .

https://www.google.com/search?q=paper shredder motor wiring diagram&tbm=isch&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQtI8BKAJqFwoTCLDskpeAtPMCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAL&biw=1903&bih=937#imgrc=Swtd0_W94AgCbM

73's de Edd . . . . .

shy-fart.gif


.
 
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kipper

Oct 5, 2021
6
Joined
Oct 5, 2021
Messages
6
Hello
This motor belongs to a Rymans cross cut shredder. The (not brilliantly) laid out electronics board has developed a fault ( nothing obvious like leaking electrolytics) and I want to rewire with a DPDT switch to provide on/off and reverse

Would someone be kind enough to have a look at the pictures and suggest how this motor can be wired?

Thanks

kipper[/QUOTE
Looks like one pair goes to the stator and the other pair goes to the rotor. Identify those pairs and I assume they're supposed to be connected in series (if it's the motor I think it is). Just use diode test to identify each pairs.

NB: Important - if you've missed the original coupling, the rotation direction can goes either way so be sure there are no equipment/tools at the shaft that can get broken because of that. Also don't let the motor run without load.

The rotation can be changed by swapping the polarity for either rotor windings or rotor windings.
Thanks very much for your reply - sorry for my ignorance, but I'm assuming that your suggestion relates to a brushed motor, which this is. Could you explain what you mean by diode test ( I know what a diode is, just not how you could use it here)
 

kipper

Oct 5, 2021
6
Joined
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Messages
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Sir kipper . . . . .

Just put in 6 hrs of the weekend on our FELLOWES DS12ci HEAVEE- DOODIE . . . .shredder and that's being HEAVEE on the HEAVEE. . . . . . . .GAWD . . . . what a solid BUILT mechanical MONSTER . . . . its mother just HAD to have been an auto crusher.

You definitely SHOULD have shown a couple of good photos of all the electronics, as all that I can confirm from that motor is that it is brushed and you said 220V, but unknown if that is THEN being converted to DC. I'm expecting a big HEAVY Ice Cube profile relay, used for doing the direction reversing function.

Meanwhile . . . . in the interim . . . .

Here is the MOST amassed info that you are EVER, EVER going to find on PAPER SHREDDERS . . . . . and . . . . . at no extra charge . . .( a freebie 1992 Plymouth Voyager wiring diagram.)

TECHNO REFERENCING . . . . .

https://www.google.com/search?q=paper shredder motor wiring diagram&tbm=isch&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQtI8BKAJqFwoTCLDskpeAtPMCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAL&biw=1903&bih=937#imgrc=Swtd0_W94AgCbM

73's de Edd . . . . .

shy-fart.gif


.
Thanks for your reply - I had seen these circuit diagrams, but none appear to be similar to my layout. I have posted some pictures below of the circuit board - there are two- a "power supply" with a capacitor in parallel, and the main board
 

kipper

Oct 5, 2021
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Pictures
 

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Bluejets

Oct 5, 2014
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The motor is a basic series motor.
Power comes in through one field coil, then through armature , back through other field winding to the supply neutral.
So first in to field start, finish to armature, out armature to other field finish and start to neutral.
This field relationship must remain.
To reverse, the armature connections to the field windings need to be swapped over BUT many of these motors do not run well in reverse.
Sometimes due to the brush placement and sometimes due to the design of the brush and holder.

A dpdt switch is insufficient to provide reversing AND on-off.
 

73's de Edd

Aug 21, 2015
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Sir kipper . . . . .


As simple built as that unit seems to be . . . . . wanna pair up with me ? . . . . . and see if we can get that unit working again ?
You will have to be my remote hands and eyes.

On your #1 of 3 last photos . . . . .

main-board-jpg.53002


With what info you have shown me . . . . there is my mentioned, BIG Black Ice Cube power switching relay in the center of the board.
There also, are your clipped off RED-WHITE-YELLOW motor wires associated with switched power from that relay.

On your #2 of 3 last photos . . . . .. . . . .

power-board-jpg.53003


We see 220VAC power coming in as the BROWN-BLUE wire pair and initially looping thru the ferrite Radio Frequency I
nterference suppression toroid and then into the minor board for some RFI AC line filtering by that initial X rated yellow safety capacitor ( possibly using a 1 Meg shunt resistor) and then each wire passes thru its individual BLACK clad ferrite cored line RFI choke coil and then is being "outputted" with a totally odd ball wire coding of GREEN and ORANGE wires.
I say "outputted", wherein ACTUALLY this boards function is attempting to suppress as much of the created, fire breathing and arcing motor brushes severe RFI / Electro Magnetic Interference /CRAP from getting out and going back into the AC line . . . . . as is being possible.
A close by secretary's AM radio playing on her desk wouldn't fare any too well, while this monster is running.

While being on this photo, take note of the top right corner where I ? believe ? that the paper insertion slot is, there we have a RED and BROWN wire routed going over to what must be either a mechanical leaf switch (only needs 2 wire connections) or a photocell and LED emitter pair (they need 3 or 4 wire connections). This activates the shredder when paper is inserted . That RED-BROWN set of wires comes over and goes underneath the board at the empty WHITE 4 pin male connector. Now . . . .I can see one BLACK wire on the OTHER side of that unviewable electro-mechanical portion of the far side of that paper slot portion. What and where is its companion wire
and where do they route to ?

Going back to that initially mentioned BLUE-BROWN AC wiring at its loop thru ferrite balun, can you confirm that it then comes in directly from the AC line plug wiring ?.

A RED-ORANGE wire pair to the left, I suspect as going to the MAIN power rocker switch for the shredder.

No idea on what the, further to the left, smaller wire gauge BROWN - BLUE? wire pair go to . . . please inspect and fill me in.

Last item of interest is being the LARGEST BLACK E-capacitor at the bottom right corner of the main board.
That is the only possibility of the use of filtered DC to the shredder motor . . . . .but it would have to have a 400'ish DC voltage rating,
BUT . . . I am seeing 35V on top . . . . so it probably will be a 470-1000-2200 ufd and is being used as the MAIN DC supply filter for this units discrete electronics.
Thereby, the principal DC supply voltage will be 12' ish DC volts for that big relays pull in coil.

Going back to your #1 of 3 last photos . . . . .

main-board-jpg.53002



First, see that boards top right corners vertically mounted wire pigtail fuse . . . it's not blown open is it ? (If its having a non viewable ceramic center cylinder . . .certainly looks like it . . . / versus / an easily view through clear glass one. )

If I am correct . . . . for you to confirm . . . . about its nearby RED and ORANGE wires being from the units MAIN power rocker switch.
Then the RED gets HOT AC power and passes down to that switch to come back as the ORANGE wire and that AC power, which passes thru the fuse and into the LARGE reddish -brown capacitor that has a selected capacitance value such that its AC capacitive reactance will drop that initially excessive 230 voltage source, on down to the much lower range that we need for our low voltage power supply after passing thru one of the diodes in the cluster just below the next largest BLACK E-cap just above them.
The giant BLACK E-cap at the very bottom corner is then being the main DC storage cap of the low voltage DC supply.

OBSERVATION . . . .

This unit appears to merely use just 5 discrete transistors .
Now we can make a leap forward of the equivalency of skipping 5 tests just by taking measurements on that uppermost transistor that is spaced down under the power relay by the two BLACK power diodes between them.

TIME TO MAKE TESTEE - TESTEE . . . . . #1

I can't see your disconnected motor wires as affecting your making this test.
So you might want to solder / clip on on a "flying" hook up wire to make a meter connection to the meters negative lead (or another wire/component
that is connected to it) of the large BLACK E-capacitor.
Use a meter set to + DC voltage and be prepared for a max of 50VDC . . .but REALLY only expecting ~12VDC
Meter negative lead goes to our earlier located large BLACK E-capacitor negative connection.
Now you power up using that main power switch and use meter + lead to test each of the three leads of that just earlier mentioned relay driver transistor.
One of its 3 leads ( its collector) should have ~ 12 VDC IF the units power supply is working. If none is found on all 3 leads, we then test back at the power supply portions origin . . . . . to see why not ?.

I now stop for questions, if so needed . . . . or for your results . . . . plus ALL my earlier degrees of " uncertainty" questions being answered .
Plus, is that now vacant WHITE 4 pin male connector even used, and what it remotely connects to if being used. ( If so, I might suspect that multi position slide switch, being at the front center of the top panel of the unit.)

A like dimensioned and oriented photo, akin to your component side Photo #1 of 3 . . . . showing the foil side of the board would be helpful. ***

***
Because, the SANYOU SRU-S-112L Power relay did not show its extreme end suffix which is indicative of giving its power terminal connections and switching actions.

73's de Edd . . . . .
tenor.gif



.
 
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kipper

Oct 5, 2021
6
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6
Brilliant - thanks very much for taking the time to look. I'll post back with the results of your tests, although I'm away for a week or so likely after that. To put a bit more detail on the fault, you are correct - the white plug does indeed connect to an IR LED and receiver set up that activates the motor when you put a piece of paper in it. The fault was that either this didn't work, or just switched off even when there was paper present. I also noticed that the green "on" LED was a bit dim. My internet research suggested that the output from the power supply part of the circuit might have been low.

I'm very happy to try and get this back working, and it's not a big deal to reconnect the motor. I'll pop back in due course with what I have found. Seems crazy to not do this, as the motor and actual shredding mechanism seem in good order.

Roddy
 

kipper

Oct 5, 2021
6
Joined
Oct 5, 2021
Messages
6
Hi - I've done a bit of investigation. If I connect a lab power supply across the large black E capacitor ( obviously without mains voltage!) - it's rated at 1000microfarad and 50v, then the unit appears to work normally - in that I can hear a click when I put a bit of paper across the IR sensor between the paper slots. As long as the paper is present, then the relay holds which is what I would expect. The relay is rated at 24V for the coil, and that is the voltage that I used from the lab power supply

However - if I put a voltmeter across the same capacitor and plug it into the mains, I get some strange stuff. 1st - it takes possibly 5 seconds to charge up to 19V and no more. As soon as I put a bit of paper across the IR sensor, the relay does click - but the voltage collapses to about 5 volts, and even with the paper across the sensor, the relay clicks off - thus mimicking the symptoms I found. So my suspicion is very much the power supply- and in my ignorance I think the reddish brown capacitor that you referred may well be faulty. Would you agree
 

73's de Edd

Aug 21, 2015
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Herr kipper . . . . .

You're b a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- ck !

From your feedback . . . . in analysis . . . . lets suspicion that MAIN E-cap of which you speak has made a timely demise of internal capacitave deterioration, so that its day-one capacitance has so declined and NOW it might be only having 100 - 220 ufd of capacitance.
And of course, that is not enough power storage and reserve oooooomph to meet your units power needs..
See if you have another cap of that value or even up to 2200-3300 ufd to put in that position.
If that doesn't work, for our further in depth troubleshooting , I will explain all of the innate intricacies of that power supply design being used.

73's de Edd . . . . .
 
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