Skin Effect in Solid/Stranded/Litzendraht Wire -Guy Macon

[Rich Grise]

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote:

Show us one, then, along with the detailed theory of operation.

Otherwise, shut up and go away.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

No, it was 60Hz ac, 115kV. I know because they asked
us if we'd be affected by the radiated magnetic field,
being only 100-feet away from our labs, and they and we
undertook an analysis, which showed we were OK about it.
(I had suggested they twist the "wires" but that didn't
go over well, they didn't want to twist four conduits.)

When I was much younger and stupider, a friend and I climbed
one of those hi-line towers, and could actually reach out
and touch some of the wires (luckily, they were insulated!).
I actually felt the 60 Hz electrical field around the wire,
which was about 1" in diameter. I don't know what the
voltage was, but it was very exciting. (no pun intended.)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Winfield Hill]

If they were in heavy lead jackets, it is very likely that
there would have been no radiated EMI even a few feet away.

More like twisted brains.

No that's wrong: neither the lead nor any other shield
would help to reduce the 60Hz magnetic field strength,
which comes from the magnitude of the ac current, and
the separation (and lack of twist) of the cables. As
it happened, we found the strength of the field in our
labs was a bit weaker than from our own poorly-done
electrical-conduit wiring. Which we had already dealt
with in sensitive experiments.

 

[Winfield Hill]

If they were in heavy lead jackets, it is very likely that
there would have been no radiated EMI even a few feet away.

More like twisted brains.

No that's wrong: neither the lead nor any other shield
would help to reduce the 60Hz magnetic field strength,
which comes from the magnitude of the ac current, and
the separation (and lack of twist) of the cables. As
it happened, we found the strength of the field in our
labs was a bit weaker than from our own poorly-done
electrical-conduit wiring. Which we had already dealt
with in sensitive experiments.

 

[John Larkin]

No that's wrong: neither the lead nor any other shield
would help to reduce the 60Hz magnetic field strength,
which comes from the magnitude of the ac current, and
the separation (and lack of twist) of the cables. As
it happened, we found the strength of the field in our
labs was a bit weaker than from our own poorly-done
electrical-conduit wiring. Which we had already dealt
with in sensitive experiments.

I'm doing wiring this week (a new employee kitchen/lunchroom) so I got
a little RatShack amplifier/speaker box and wired a Renco drum-core
inductor to it, as a mag field probe, to trace wiring. It's really fun
to wave around other things, like monitors and keyboards and such. An
iPod starting up makes very strange sounds.

As I walk around, I get various 60 Hz things with no obvious source.

John

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

Show us one, then, along with the detailed theory of operation.

Otherwise, shut up and go away.

**** off, GriseTard. YOU go the **** away.

 

[JosephKK]

ChairmanOfTheBored [email protected] posted to
sci.electronics.design:

**** you, you fucking idiot. Hey, asswipe... over here, we
CAPITALIZE
the word I, you uneducable fucktard!

You could pick on something actually significant, but no you are
attacking irrelevancies. Do go on making a total ass of yourself.

I do not have to compare anything, and I do understand. I built
HV
power supplies for the last ten years, asswipe.

Try another total lie.

A TV deflection circuit is NOT a flyback supply, idiot. The
flyback in
a TV is in the ANODE supply, you stupid ****.

It is inseparable from the horizontal deflection circuit.

You're a goddamned idiot. Nice assumption there, you fucking
retard.
That's like me saying "since you assume, you MUST be retarded."
Guess
what, dipshit? My remark is far closer to being correct than your
is or ever could be.

Both proving yourself wrong and hoisting on yourself your own petard
simultaneously.

IF you even knew what a collapsing magnetic field does, you MIGHT
understand. The problem is 100% yours, idiot.

What is your disunderstanding? Maxwell's equations work pretty well
if you can learn how to use them like i have.

BTW i do not have a neurosis of self-importance like you seem to.

 

[Robert Baer]

The _earliest_ TV sets didn't need HV - they had a light bulb and
a perforated disk.

If there's only one TV, why is it called a "set"?

Why do they wear a _pair_ of panties but only one bra? ;-)

** More accurately and confusingly, what is a "pant", what is a
"scissor", and what is a "plier"?

 

[Tom Bruhns]

COTB posted, God only knows why: ....

It is inseparable from the horizontal deflection circuit.

Almost always true, Joseph, but even if it weren't, that does not mean
that the deflection circuit is NOT a flyback circuit. Even the
vertical deflection circuit is a flyback circuit. I did once have a
monitor in which the HT supply was a completely separate unit, but
that's pretty rare. But for sure, the magnetic deflection circuits
are designed as flyback circuits to rapidly reset the magnetics for
the start of the next scan.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Tom Bruhns]

"Commonly" Try ALWAYS! Long spans between tie points ALWAYS require a
steel carrier strand.

Even long cable TV coax runs need a steel carrier strand to keep them
from damaging the coax at the tie points. Not talking about hard line
here, as that gets bundled to a STEEL carrier strand as well!

Thanks for the input. However, my further research into this,
including conversations with engineers who actually design and install
power transmission systems, makes it clear that the real answer isn't
anywhere near that simple. It's been fun to look into this more
deeply and learn a little more about the infrastructure that delivers
electrical power to us. The answers are out there for anyone
interested enough to look for them.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[John Larkin]

**** you, you fucking idiot. Hey, asswipe... over here, we CAPITALIZE
the word I, you uneducable fucktard!


I do not have to compare anything, and I do understand. I built HV
power supplies for the last ten years, asswipe.

A TV deflection circuit is NOT a flyback supply, idiot. The flyback in
a TV is in the ANODE supply, you stupid ****.

Of course it's a flyback. A single tube or transistor drives the
horizontal deflection coil and the HV transformer simultaneously. It's
sort of a neat coincidence that the same drive waveform works for
both.

The earliest b&w teevee sets had a separate, 60 Hz transformer-based
anode supply, operating at low kilovolt level. The dual-use flyback
trick made higher voltages affordable.


John

 

[Rich Grise]

Of course it's a flyback. A single tube or transistor drives the
horizontal deflection coil and the HV transformer simultaneously. It's
sort of a neat coincidence that the same drive waveform works for
both.

The earliest b&w teevee sets had a separate, 60 Hz transformer-based
anode supply, operating at low kilovolt level. The dual-use flyback
trick made higher voltages affordable.

The _earliest_ TV sets didn't need HV - they had a light bulb and
a perforated disk.

If there's only one TV, why is it called a "set"?

Why do they wear a _pair_ of panties but only one bra? ;-)
-- Gallagher

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Joel Koltner]

If there's only one TV, why is it called a "set"?

Because early TVs often had the CRT proper (and its power supply?) separate
from the tuner?

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

Almost always true, Joseph, but even if it weren't, that does not mean
that the deflection circuit is NOT a flyback circuit. Even the
vertical deflection circuit is a flyback circuit. I did once have a
monitor in which the HT supply was a completely separate unit, but
that's pretty rare. But for sure, the magnetic deflection circuits
are designed as flyback circuits to rapidly reset the magnetics for
the start of the next scan.

The retarded asswipe called me a liar when I said that I have been
working on HV PS over the last decade.

One of our supplies was a super anode supply made for Hughes Aircraft
that went into a big three CRT projector (beside it, actually) that was
the old standard in aircraft theater systems.

It was a switcher, and it fed a huge three way HV splitter that was
potted in about a pound of high performance RTV encapsulant. One big, low
corona Silicone HV wire in, and three medium diameter high performance
Silicone HV wires out with anode cups on them.

The projector was over three feet long, and about 27" wide and about 8
inches thick. The tubes were almost the entire length of the chassis,
and were like 6" in diameter. That retrace was small and quick...

I wonder if he has enough brains to know why special relativity comes
into play on an anode supply for large CRT tube sizes.

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

Of course it's a flyback.

No, Johnny. SOME designs are flyback circuit driven. Some are not.

A single tube or transistor drives the
horizontal deflection coil and the HV transformer simultaneously.

No, Johnny. In a flyback circuit, that is how SOME of them are driven.
There are plenty of other types of anode supplies in use that are NOT
flyback driven.

It's
sort of a neat coincidence that the same drive waveform works for
both.

Special relativity is included in some cases as well. That still doesn't
mean that all anode supplies for all TVs are flyback circuit driven,
idiot.

The earliest b&w teevee sets had a separate, 60 Hz transformer-based
anode supply, operating at low kilovolt level. The dual-use flyback
trick made higher voltages affordable.

COM for consumer devices is one thing. Commercial and industrial, as
well as military applications used other, more hardy methods.

I have made NON-flyback driven anode supplies for the steady cam
monitors in use on nearly all of Hollywood's steady cams. NOT a flyback
anode drive. It uses the same high brightness, daylight viewable
Thompson tube used in the F-4 Phantom.

For Hughes Aircraft in flight theater projectors. NOT a flyback anode
drive.

For General Electric medical imaging CRTs. NOT a flyback anode drive.

All are high reliability applications. All are not flybacks.

Consumer flybacks puke if you cough the wrong way when they are on.

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

The _earliest_ TV sets didn't need HV - they had a light bulb and
a perforated disk.

If there's only one TV, why is it called a "set"?

Because it requires a SET of circuits to make it operate.

Why do they wear a _pair_ of panties but only one bra? ;-)
-- Gallagher

The fruit smashing idiot.

 

[John Larkin]

No, Johnny. SOME designs are flyback circuit driven. Some are not.


No, Johnny. In a flyback circuit, that is how SOME of them are driven.
There are plenty of other types of anode supplies in use that are NOT
flyback driven.

In TV sets?

Special relativity is included in some cases as well. That still doesn't
mean that all anode supplies for all TVs are flyback circuit driven,
idiot.

Well, they're not in LCDs, or plasma displays, or those TI light
deflector things. But I doubt you can find a CRT-based TV that doesn't
drive the horizontal deflection coil and the flyback transformer from
the same device.

Are there any TVs that have separate drivers?

COM for consumer devices is one thing. Commercial and industrial, as
well as military applications used other, more hardy methods.

Please tell us.

I have made NON-flyback driven anode supplies for the steady cam
monitors in use on nearly all of Hollywood's steady cams. NOT a flyback
anode drive. It uses the same high brightness, daylight viewable
Thompson tube used in the F-4 Phantom.

For Hughes Aircraft in flight theater projectors. NOT a flyback anode
drive.

For General Electric medical imaging CRTs. NOT a flyback anode drive.

All are high reliability applications. All are not flybacks.

And none are TV sets.


John

 

[krw]

** More accurately and confusingly, what is a "pant", what is a
"scissor", and what is a "plier"?

Tooth brush. Though perhaps Dimbulb invented it.

 

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

And none are TV sets.

We were talking about CRTs. ALL CRTs.

 

[John Larkin]

We were talking about CRTs. ALL CRTs.

YOU said this:

"A TV deflection circuit is NOT a flyback supply, idiot. The flyback
in a TV is in the ANODE supply, you stupid ****."

Remember?

Weasel time, again? Go for it.

John