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The first 2,000 kwh

T

Tom P

Jan 1, 1970
0
Our little grid-tied roof installation just went past 2,000 kwh. Despite
cool rainy weather over the last month, in just over 6 months operation
the installation is generating 25% above planned capacity.
 
V

vaughn

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tom P said:
Our little grid-tied roof installation just went past 2,000 kwh. Despite cool
rainy weather over the last month, in just over 6 months operation the
installation is generating 25% above planned capacity.

I envy you. I am the sort of guy who might have a system like that, even though
the my business eduction informs me that they seldom make economic sense. But
nagging details get in the way. Unfortunately, I live in hurricane country,
which raises engineering and insurance issues with PV installations. Further, I
know that many do it, but I just can't bring myself to drill holes through a
perfectly good roof.

Congratulations!
Vaughn
 
G

Giga2

Jan 1, 1970
0
Tom P said:
Our little grid-tied roof installation just went past 2,000 kwh. Despite
cool rainy weather over the last month, in just over 6 months operation
the installation is generating 25% above planned capacity.

That is brilliant!
 
P

Peter Franks

Jan 1, 1970
0
Really. RWE just transferred 526€ to my bank account.

Let me know when the 35,000€ 'investment' is paid off.
 
P

Paul Aubrin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Really. RWE just transferred 526€ to my bank account.

Is PV electricity subsidised in the country were you live?
 
G

Giga2

Jan 1, 1970
0
Peter Franks said:
Because the cost outweighs the financial benefit.

Depends how much it cost, how much Tom is saving and how much he is earning.
 
P

Paul Aubrin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Peter Franks said:
[quoted text muted]
Depends how much it cost, how much Tom is saving and how much he is
earning.

And how much subsidies he can get. Many countries (Spain for example) are
reducing their subsidies for new PV installations but must pay those
subsidies for former contracts.
The Spanish solar industry companies complained loudly that they would go
bankrupt if the Spanish government reduced too much the subsidies.
 
I

I'll Always Be 17/07/11

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul Aubrin said:
Peter Franks said:
[quoted text muted]
Depends how much it cost, how much Tom is saving and how much he is
earning.

And how much subsidies he can get. Many countries (Spain for example) are
reducing their subsidies for new PV installations but must pay those
subsidies for former contracts.
The Spanish solar industry companies complained loudly that they would go
bankrupt if the Spanish government reduced too much the subsidies.

As do the oil companies when threatened with loss of their tax breaks
 
P

Peter Franks

Jan 1, 1970
0
Depends how much it cost, how much Tom is saving and how much he is earning.

Right, and we already discussed that and found that it isn't
economically sound.

If someone wants to install PV, have at it. But it isn't financially
sound, and won't be until it is $1/watt installed, imo.
 
G

Giga2

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul Aubrin said:
Peter Franks said:
[quoted text muted]
Depends how much it cost, how much Tom is saving and how much he is
earning.

And how much subsidies he can get. Many countries (Spain for example) are
reducing their subsidies for new PV installations but must pay those
subsidies for former contracts.
The Spanish solar industry companies complained loudly that they would go
bankrupt if the Spanish government reduced too much the subsidies.
Very true, that is what I meant by 'how much he is earning'.
 
G

Giga2

Jan 1, 1970
0
Peter Franks said:
Right, and we already discussed that and found that it isn't economically
sound.

And *we* (not including you) came to the conclusion it was economical.
If someone wants to install PV, have at it. But it isn't financially
sound, and won't be until it is $1/watt installed, imo.

What is it now?
 
F

Falcon

Jan 1, 1970
0
Depends how much it cost, how much Tom is saving and how much he is
earning.

Right, and we already discussed that and found that it isn't
economically sound.

If someone wants to install PV, have at it. But it isn't financially
sound, and won't be until it is $1/watt installed, imo.[/QUOTE]

We don't have enough information, Peter.

It's the Return On Investment (ROI) that's important from Tom's point of
view. In this case not only the current return on the cost of investment is
important; assumptions he has made about the future price of electricity
and maintenance costs are critical. If the assumptions are realistic and
the ROI still compares favourably with other forms of investment, Tom has
made a wise move, regardless of any other considerations.

That said, the return he makes on his investment doesn't appear out of thin
air. It MAY be economically sound for Tom, but what about everyone else?
What concerns me is the effect the subsidies he receives, has on
electricity prices for the vast majority of people who cannot afford to
invest in PV or other forms of renewables. His generous feed-in tariff is
paid for by the rest of us in the form of higher electricity prices.

If his (and other domestic and corporate investors) ROI is as high as, say
10%, does that justify and increase of 10% in electricity prices for the
rest of us? How do you feel about it Tom?
 
T

Tom P

Jan 1, 1970
0
Right, and we already discussed that and found that it isn't
economically sound.

If someone wants to install PV, have at it. But it isn't financially
sound, and won't be until it is $1/watt installed, imo.

We don't have enough information, Peter.

It's the Return On Investment (ROI) that's important from Tom's point of
view. In this case not only the current return on the cost of investment is
important; assumptions he has made about the future price of electricity
and maintenance costs are critical. If the assumptions are realistic and
the ROI still compares favourably with other forms of investment, Tom has
made a wise move, regardless of any other considerations.

That said, the return he makes on his investment doesn't appear out of thin
air. It MAY be economically sound for Tom, but what about everyone else?
What concerns me is the effect the subsidies he receives, has on
electricity prices for the vast majority of people who cannot afford to
invest in PV or other forms of renewables. His generous feed-in tariff is
paid for by the rest of us in the form of higher electricity prices.

If his (and other domestic and corporate investors) ROI is as high as, say
10%, does that justify and increase of 10% in electricity prices for the
rest of us? How do you feel about it Tom?
[/QUOTE]

A couple of things to say about this. The first is that electricity
prices reflect the cost of generation, which to a large extent reflects
the cost of fossil fuels. Household electricity tariffs in Germany have
increased by a factor of around 4 since 1970, and roughly doubled since
2000. There is no reason to expect the cost of fossil fuels to fall in
the future and every reason to expect them to rise, meaning that we can
expect electricity prices to rise regardless of renewables.

Another factor in the consumer price of electricity is tax. Electricity
in France is not significantly cheaper because of nuclear energy, but
rather that the French government applies a much lower tax rate than
nearly every other country in Europe, Germany and Denmark the highest.

Since the percentage of PV grid feed-in has only recently become
anywhere near significant, it is clear that none of these price rises
can be the result of subsidized grid feed-in, and hence the claim that a
10% rise in electricity prices is the result of grid feed-in subsidy is
unjustified and simply used as a scapegoat.

As far as the feed-in tariffs are concerned, the difference between the
average household tariff and the grid feed-in tariff is around 5 cents.
The feed-in tariff is declining every year, so that in a few years
together with the rising electricity prices we can expect parity. At
that point no-one can claim that the PV installations are being subsidized.
 
T

Tom P

Jan 1, 1970
0
My point exactly. A subsidy-free future beckons as the market takes
over and non-renewable-generated electricity prices go through the
roof, as supply begins to dwindle.

Incidentally, there's another reason occurred to me why prices rise -
shareholder return. Since privatization, power companies have to make a
profit, and the shares have to go up in value.

It's that which is a majorly
attractive about solar power generation from panels installed on my
house. I've just got to be careful about the maintenance costs - any
ideas on that one Tom, or is down to promises from the installation
company? What kind of guarantees do you have and do you have a
maintenance contract? Are problems also covered under your buildings/
contents insurance?

Good point. I don't know how the situation is in your country but here
it is essential to get the installation done by professionals, or more
exactly, trying to DIY is insane.

The reasons are:
- the power utility will refuse to connect to the grid without the work
being done by a certified electrician.

- DIY work on your building structure, including the roof and wiring,
may invalidate your fire and building insurance.

- a professional installation company is insured against any
consequential damage or loss incurred by their work. In addition their
employees are insured while working on your building. Not many people
realize what it can cost them if they employ someone to work on their
roof, and he falls off, breaks his neck and ends in a wheelchair.

- a professional installation company will guarantee the installation
for x years and guarantee a minimum performance profile for x years.

Wrt insurance, you should inform your building insurance company. Most
will offer extra insurance cover, either as an extension to your
building insurance policy, or you can opt for a separate insurance from
another company. The second was marginally cheaper, but I opted for the
first to avoid any finger pointing problems down the road. The insurance
is around 80€ annually and covers things like storm damage and 3rd party
liability.

The installation is essentially maintenance free. The company I used as
part of the contract come after the first year to check everything through.

I only had two problems with the project. The first was that the weather
held up the roof installation by nearly two months. The second was to
get the electrical network company to finally issue the payment contract
for the grid feed-in so we could get any money. It took endless phone
calls to find out who was delaying what and why, and to chase people to
send the right bits of paper to the right people.
 
F

Falcon

Jan 1, 1970
0
[..]
We don't have enough information, Peter.

It's the Return On Investment (ROI) that's important from Tom's point of
view. In this case not only the current return on the cost of investment is
important; assumptions he has made about the future price of electricity
and maintenance costs are critical. If the assumptions are realistic and
the ROI still compares favourably with other forms of investment, Tom has
made a wise move, regardless of any other considerations.

That said, the return he makes on his investment doesn't appear out of thin
air. It MAY be economically sound for Tom, but what about everyone else?
What concerns me is the effect the subsidies he receives, has on
electricity prices for the vast majority of people who cannot afford to
invest in PV or other forms of renewables. His generous feed-in tariff is
paid for by the rest of us in the form of higher electricity prices.

If his (and other domestic and corporate investors) ROI is as high as, say
10%, does that justify and increase of 10% in electricity prices for the
rest of us? How do you feel about it Tom?

A couple of things to say about this. The first is that electricity
prices reflect the cost of generation, which to a large extent reflects
the cost of fossil fuels. Household electricity tariffs in Germany have
increased by a factor of around 4 since 1970, and roughly doubled since
2000. There is no reason to expect the cost of fossil fuels to fall in
the future and every reason to expect them to rise, meaning that we can
expect electricity prices to rise regardless of renewables.

Another factor in the consumer price of electricity is tax. Electricity
in France is not significantly cheaper because of nuclear energy, but
rather that the French government applies a much lower tax rate than
nearly every other country in Europe, Germany and Denmark the highest.

Since the percentage of PV grid feed-in has only recently become
anywhere near significant, it is clear that none of these price rises
can be the result of subsidized grid feed-in, and hence the claim that a
10% rise in electricity prices is the result of grid feed-in subsidy is
unjustified and simply used as a scapegoat.

As far as the feed-in tariffs are concerned, the difference between the
average household tariff and the grid feed-in tariff is around 5 cents.
The feed-in tariff is declining every year, so that in a few years
together with the rising electricity prices we can expect parity. At
that point no-one can claim that the PV installations are being subsidized.

I don't know where you got your figures from, but in the UK the situation
is different.

1) "...the difference between the average household tariff and the grid
feed-in tariff is around 5 cents".

I'd like to see a reference for that. In the UK, the fee-in tariff is "up
to 41.3p/kWh, depending on the type and size of the system used to generate
renewable energy", plus "an additional 3p/kWh when you export any surplus
back to the grid".

The UK market is awash with different tariffs, but average price consumers
pay for electricity is around 13p/kWh. This is expected to rise to around
15-16p/kWh (20% or so) in the next few months as wholesale prices feed into
the retail market.

In the UK the difference between the price paid to someone like you with PV
panels and the average household tariff is, therefore, around 28p/kWh (31-
32 Euro-cents/kWh.

2) "The feed-in tariff is declining every year..."

I'd like to see a reference for that. In the UK, the feed-in tariffs are
are index-linked to RPI and guaranteed for 20 years, except solar systems
which qualify for 25 years. According to the Government, that should earn a
return up to 8% p.a. I know of no other form of investment that virtually
guarantees a return of around 8% p.a. for 25 years.

I understand that the government is now reviewing the subsidy for larger PV
installations (i.e. >50 kW plus) because of the cost of supporting them.
I'm not surprised.

3) "the claim that a 10% rise in electricity prices is the result of grid
feed-in subsidy is unjustified".

I agree, that was a simplistic and misleading estimate.

Ofgem estimates that environmental costs (which include the Energy
Efficiency Commitment (EEC), Community Energy Savings Programme (CESP),
Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT), and Renewables Obligation
Certificates (ROCs)) currently adds around 8% to average domestic fuel
bills. I expect that percentage will rise, but of course that depends on
what happens to gas, coal and other fuel prices.

Feed-in tariffs are not specifically mentioned in the report; they form
part of the overall cost of environmental obligations.

References:

Feed-In Tariffs
http://www.fitariffs.co.uk/

Fuel Prices
http://xrl.us/bk2k9r (Link to www.confusedaboutenergy.co.uk)

Environmental costs
Ofgem: Electricity and Gas Supply Market Report, June 2011
http://xrl.us/bk2k55 (Link to www.ofgem.gov.uk)
 
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