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Theoretical type of electric shock

J

jasen

Jan 1, 1970
0
It isn't energy at all, it is power.

ok suppose you run it for 11 days, that's almost 10^-488 Joules
or about 6*10^-470 electron volts

there's not even nearly enough energy there to raise the temperature
of one atom by a measurable amount
Energy density is how a laser with an average power of a few watts cuts
through steel and what makes wires explode.

huh, a few watts? "It isn't energy at all, it is power." :^)
It is the energy per unit volume or area in a material.

which is stuff-all in this case.
Google "exploding wires".

I did, they are wires with a much higher resistivity.

Bye.
Jasen
 
ok suppose you run it for 11 days, that's almost 10^-488 Joules
or about 6*10^-470 electron volts
there's not even nearly enough energy there to raise the temperature
of one atom by a measurable amount
huh, a few watts? "It isn't energy at all, it is power." :^)

Yeah, a few watts.

The average power in a cutting laser is rather low, but the peak pulse
energy is high and of short duration.
which is stuff-all in this case.
I did, they are wires with a much higher resistivity.

From the beginning...

The original post said to run 1 KA through a wire with a diameter
approaching the diameter of an iron atom.

Ignore the facts that the resistance of such a wire could never be
small and making such a wire is problematic to say the least.

You can ignore the resistance of the wire. The current is specified
to be 1 KA. What the voltage is is irrelevant; it is whatever it takes
to get 1 KA through the wire.

The power dissipated by resistive heating is irrelevant; it just means
you don't get resistive preheat of the wire.

Current flowing through a conductor generates a magnetic field. The
magnetic field depends only on the current.

The combination of a high current and hence high magnetic field causes
the conductor to be compressed. When you compress something, you
heat it.

For a tiny real wire, let alone one with a diameter of atomic
dimensions, about 500 A is enough for all this to happen.

The compressive heating causes the wire temperature to skyrocket
in an increasing manner as the wire gets smaller.

Eventually (in terms of nanoseconds), the wire vaporizes, turns to
plasma, which is also compressed by the magentic field.
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hi:

Lets say that the electrical resistance of my adipose tissue was -- for
some mysterious reason -- decreased from what it is right now to about
10 ^ -500 ohm.

What symptoms would I experience if an AC electric current of 1,000
amps, 50-60 Hz was applied directly to the adipose tissue of my abdomen
via insertion of an extremely sharp electric needle that is only one
iron-atom wide at the end, and which -- for some unknown reason -- also
has a resistance of only 10^-500 ohm? Thermal injuries are out of the
question because of the extremely low resistance.

My guess is that the pressure of the electric current would rupture the
adipose tissue covering my stomach. Am I right?

I would expect resistance of the tissue in a small area/volume
surrounding the needle to experience high current density and high power
density and give all sorts of burning symptoms including great pain and
also electric shock sensation. The resistance of the tissue around such a
small needle with even a tenth or two of an amp can result in significant
burning, maybe to the point of charring and production of bad-smelling
smoke. I think that a kiloamp through an ideal needle would vaporize
surrounding tissue so severely as to cause a blast leaving behind a crater
surrounded to at least a little extent by 3rd degree burns. And with the
current needing to flow somewhere, I don't expect damage outside the
crater to be limited to a little overdoing of a cauterization of the
crater.

Oh, did you say 1,000 amps? Should that have pegged my trollometer? I
have a suspicion that those sent to "The Chair" don't conduct that much
current!
Worry about cooking all regions of the body conducting that much
current, probably in just seconds! Also worry about disruption of the
heart (either ventricular fibrillation or with higher current cardiac
arrest, although sometimes a higher current jolt achieves merely a
"reset").

Don't expect to recover your needle even if it was superconducting.
Expect conducting high temperature vapor around it (as in big fat electric
arc) to do a lot of damage. See what a 1,000 amp welding arc does
sometime - most welding arcs are only hundreds of amps and I have seen
cheaper arc welders rated only 50 amps.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Radium said:
As always, no.
The first thing that would happen is your "extremely sharp electric
needle" would turn into a plasma because of the current density.

Plamsa only occurs if the object [needle in this case] is heated to
high-enough temperature to seperate the electrons from the nuclei of
the atom. In my hypothetical situation, the temperature doesn't get any
higher than what it normally is. IOW, current passing through my body
-- strong current, it maybe -- does not generate any heat.

But I would expect that much current to dissipate a huge amount of heat
bigtime in body tissue, worse still if conducted from a small needle!

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] wrote:


What if the needle was strong enough to handle the current w/out
exploding? What symptoms would occur?

Given resistance of the tissue surrounding a narrow needle to likely to
be hundreds of ohms (tens of ohms after a big temperature rise and as
low as tenths of an ohm in an electric arc), I would expect a kiloamp to
turn the region of your body that the needle was in into a disaster area
and the needle to become smoke.

Also think about the other contact on the body to conduct that much
current. Expect a good chance of that contact point to becoming a
cratered disaster area. Also consider what happens in between - likely to
have most become "well done" and some charred in a matter of seconds -
expect resistance of at least a few ohms. A good chunk of your body could
become "medium rare" (still cooked to death) with some bits cooked worse
or even charred in less than a second.

Oh, how much voltage were you planning to use to force that much
current through flesh with resistance of at least a few ohms?

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Its the magnetism that would cause the wire to explode. In my
hypothetical case, magnetism plays no role in the electricity.

How do you propose to eleminate the magnetic field caused by the current
flow?

Make the needle thick enough to reduce the magnetic field intensity to
several Tesla? Yes, that can help a little with issues like increasing
the life expectancy of the needle into milliseconds and reducing the
voltage requirement slightly (but still well into the kilovolts).

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Look, Faraday discovered the connection between current and magnetism aeons
ago.

The resulting magnetic field can be canceled by an equal and opposite
magnetic field. Its just VERY VERY difficult at the levels I am
describing [i.e. 1,000 amps]

Do you expect adequate lack of overcancelling and undercancelling of
magnetic field in every cubic micrometer of everything that has to conduct
such extreme current density and nearby? If so, how?

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
ok suppose you run it for 11 days, that's almost 10^-488 Joules
or about 6*10^-470 electron volts

there's not even nearly enough energy there to raise the temperature
of one atom by a measurable amount


huh, a few watts? "It isn't energy at all, it is power." :^)


which is stuff-all in this case.


I did, they are wires with a much higher resistivity.

I do think there is some degree of magnetic field strength that disrupts
electron orbits badly enough to ruin chemical bonds. Materials under such
conditions become gases at room temperature.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Klipstein

Jan 1, 1970
0
Radium said:
As soon as you magically transform your adipose tissue into practically a
superconductor,
[that's ten to the minus five hundred, right?]
Yes.

it will
short out all of the neuro- and myoelectric signals in your body, which
would then simply cease to function.

What if the muscles and nerve signals were shielded from the
superconductivity of the adipose tissue? IOW, the adipose's low
resistance would have no effect on the nerves and muscles.

How are you going to get any tissue to be superconducting? Plan on
resistance of at least a few ohms and negative temperature coefficient of
resistance at any temperature at which the tissue is not gas or plasma.
My guess is the fatality would result from the pressure of the
electrons running through the adipose tissue. The adipose tissue is
rich in blood vessels and pain-sensitive nerve ending. The pressure
would cause the adipose and its blood vessels to rupture, resulting is
massive hemorrhaging. In addition, there would be extreme stimulation
of the A-delta pain-receptors due to the massive tearing of the adipose
tissue.

The blood loss combined with the autonomic nervous system's response to
the SHARP SHARP pain would kill. Sharp pain can cause the autonomic
nervous system to go awry, the breathing can stop, heart beat can get
dangerously fast, vasculature may constrict/dilate abnormally.

In this type of electric injury, about more than half the body's blood
would be lost in around 5 seconds. Electric shock can also cause
metabolic exhaustion by overstimulating cells in its path. In addition,
the electrons can tear through cells via electroporation.

Did you mean electrophoresis? Meanwhile you are starting to sound a
little more certainly as silly as suspected.

What good could come from this anyway? Meanwhile, it continues to
appear that you would get well done with a couple craters in charred
zones worse than what happened to anyone sent to "The Electric Chair".
What good would come from proposing tiny electrodes made of Unobtainium
that would still be vaporized by heat dissipation into their surroundings
if nothing else?

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
D

Don Kelly

Jan 1, 1970
0
----------------------------
Don Klipstein said:
Radium said:
Rich said:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 08:57:01 -0700, Radium wrote:
Lets say that the electrical resistance of my adipose tissue was --
for
some mysterious reason -- decreased from what it is right now to
about
10 ^ -500 ohm.
...
My guess is that the pressure of the electric current would rupture
the
adipose tissue covering my stomach. Am I right?

No, you would die.

Die from what?
As soon as you magically transform your adipose tissue into practically
a
superconductor,
[that's ten to the minus five hundred, right?]
Yes.

it will
short out all of the neuro- and myoelectric signals in your body, which
would then simply cease to function.

What if the muscles and nerve signals were shielded from the
superconductivity of the adipose tissue? IOW, the adipose's low
resistance would have no effect on the nerves and muscles.

How are you going to get any tissue to be superconducting? Plan on
resistance of at least a few ohms and negative temperature coefficient of
resistance at any temperature at which the tissue is not gas or plasma.
My guess is the fatality would result from the pressure of the
electrons running through the adipose tissue. The adipose tissue is
rich in blood vessels and pain-sensitive nerve ending. The pressure
would cause the adipose and its blood vessels to rupture, resulting is
massive hemorrhaging. In addition, there would be extreme stimulation
of the A-delta pain-receptors due to the massive tearing of the adipose
tissue.

The blood loss combined with the autonomic nervous system's response to
the SHARP SHARP pain would kill. Sharp pain can cause the autonomic
nervous system to go awry, the breathing can stop, heart beat can get
dangerously fast, vasculature may constrict/dilate abnormally.

In this type of electric injury, about more than half the body's blood
would be lost in around 5 seconds. Electric shock can also cause
metabolic exhaustion by overstimulating cells in its path. In addition,
the electrons can tear through cells via electroporation.

Did you mean electrophoresis? Meanwhile you are starting to sound a
little more certainly as silly as suspected.

What good could come from this anyway? Meanwhile, it continues to
appear that you would get well done with a couple craters in charred
zones worse than what happened to anyone sent to "The Electric Chair".
What good would come from proposing tiny electrodes made of Unobtainium
that would still be vaporized by heat dissipation into their surroundings
if nothing else?

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
---------
Don,

This guy is presenting a physically impossible scenario and expects a
physically possible solution which ignores physics.

It's like asking "If pigs could fly, how fast and how high could they fly?-
Oh, yes, ignore any aerodynamics, mass to energy relationships, lack of
wings, quality of mud in the sty, etc. "

Don't waste your time on it.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don said:
It's like asking "If pigs could fly, how fast and how high could they fly?-

Mach 8 at 120,000 ft probably.

Graham
 
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