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Timing Circuit? Counter?

KrisBlueNZ

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OK, here's a better design.

269993.002.GIF

I've added U2, a TL431 2.5V shunt reference IC. Actually its nominal output voltage is 2.495V as shown on the schematic. The input voltage thresholds are derived from that voltage, so they're not dependent on the supply voltage. The marked values for RB, RC and RD give voltages fairly close to the indicated values, but RB is not a standard E24 value and you could replace it with 3k3 and 12k in parallel, or with 2k2 and 360Ω in series.

The threshold that the CT voltage is compared to is created by R1 and R2 and is nominally 80% of the supply voltage. At power-up, U1B is guaranteed to come up in the unlatched state regardless of the input voltage, because the CT voltage is initially zero, so U1B's inverting ("-") input voltage is guaranteed to be lower than its non-inverting ("+") input voltage and U1B's output voltage will be pulled high by R1/R2 and DL.

While the input voltage is outside the window, D1 and D2 pull the CT voltage down to about 0.9V and U1B's output stays high. When the input voltage is within the window, CT charges up through RT. If the input voltage remains within the window for long enough, the CT voltage reaches 9.6V and U1B's output goes low. This pulls its input threshold voltage down to about 0.6V (due to the voltage drop across DL, the latching diode) and U1B remains latched in this state regardless of the actions of U1C and U1D because they can only pull the CT voltage down to about 0.9V which cannot go below the 0.6V on R1/R2.

The output is created by comparing U1B's output voltage against the 2.5V reference voltage.

The delay is slightly shorter than before - 3.4 seconds, not 3.5 seconds, with the values given - because CT sits at about 0.9V so it starts off closer to the 80% voltage threshold than in revision 001 of the design.
 

Ernest George

Jul 18, 2014
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Awesome - thank you so much!

My apologies for my absence - it's crazy over here. Parts started showing up and I started moving in several different directions at once :confused:

With respect to the resistors, specifically, 1K3, 1K5, 5K1 - the nomenclature, what does that mean? 1K3, 1,000 Ohms and 3 watts?

Edit: Figured it out. 1K3 means 1.3K - doh!

Once other quick question, in my project I have a VCC 5V supply line that I was tapping into at will any time I needed a 5V source. I was told that this is not wise as the 5V VCC line that's provided is only rated to a small number of milliamps for specific needs. This leads me to believe that perhaps the smart thing, and I'm just guessing here, is that there is a need to make a step down (?) circuit to take 12-14.5 volts input (or so) and drop that to either 5V or 3.3V as needed.

Does my conclusion sound plausible (perhaps this is a common occurrence) and is that hard to do electronically?

My DigiKey order is almost ready to go if you can think of more things I should get please let me know. Again, your help in this is greatly appreciated and more importantly, the manner in which you are providing it. On my end, I am learning things and it's quite pleasant although I have not yet had time to sit down and really think about the circuit (soon!). At this moment even just getting the right order together at DigiKey is a victory for me! :D
 
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Ernest George

Jul 18, 2014
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...but RB is not a standard E24 value and you could replace it with 3k3 and 12k in parallel, or with 2k2 and 360Ω in series....

I noticed that when getting the order together. I did find a 2.61K resistor though. Is that going to throw out the design by much?

Man, this is one nice design :D
 

KrisBlueNZ

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Once other quick question, in my project I have a VCC 5V supply line that I was tapping into at will any time I needed a 5V source. I was told that this is not wise as the 5V VCC line that's provided is only rated to a small number of milliamps for specific needs. This leads me to believe that perhaps the smart thing, and I'm just guessing here, is that there is a need to make a step down (?) circuit to take 12-14.5 volts input (or so) and drop that to either 5V or 3.3V as needed.
Yes, you could do that. The 78L05 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/L78L05ACZTR/497-1184-1-ND/586184) is a three-terminal regulator rated for 100 mA maximum output current. In an application where they are dropping 12V down to 5V, power dissipation restricts the output current to less than 100 mA. Power dissipated in the regulator is calculated as P = V × I where P is power dissipation in watts, V is the voltage across the regulator (i.e. the difference in voltage between the input and the output) in volts, which is 7V in that case, and I is the current flowing through the regulator. For a small package, P should be kept below about 0.5W to keep the package temperature reasonably low, so you get 0.5 = 7 × I so I = 0.5 / 7 = 70 mA.

If you told us about the rest of the project, we might be able to say whether it's likely you can draw a bit of extra current from its 5V rail.
My DigiKey order is almost ready to go if you can think of more things I should get please let me know. Again, your help in this is greatly appreciated and more importantly, the manner in which you are providing it. On my end, I am learning things and it's quite pleasant although I have not yet had time to sit down and really think about the circuit (soon!). At this moment even just getting the right order together at DigiKey is a victory for me! :D
Cool :) I think you're doing well. You have a good attitude - you're not afraid to jump in and give things a go, and you try to understand and figure things out yourself. You'll be fine!

If you tell us more about your project, we might be able to suggest other components you'll need.

If you want to build up a stock of commonly used parts, you could search for pre-packaged kits of electronic components. I've gone through the circuits I've designed for Electronics Point users and made a list:

Resistors, capacitors (ceramic, film and electrolytic types), preset potentiometers ("trimpots"), potentiometers, standard, fast recovery and Schottky diodes, zener diodes, signal and power transistors, phototransistors, signal and power Darlington transistors, signal and power MOSFETs including low Vgs types, SCRs, triacs, relays, solenoids, inductors and transformers, all kinds of ICs including regulators, op-amps, comparators and logic, LEDs (various colours, infra-red, bicolour, RGB and 7-segment), optocouplers of various types, crystals and ceramic resonators, pushbuttons, switches, plugs and sockets of all types, varistors (MOVs), prototyping board, LDRs, Hall sensors and reed switches, infra-red detectors, piezo "benders" and beepers, solenoids and motors, and batteries and holders. And many of those categories deserve a whole post to themselves.
I noticed that when getting the order together. I did find a 2.61K resistor though. Is that going to throw out the design by much?
No, that's fine. The thresholds will be out by about 1%.
Man, this is one nice design :D
Thanks :)
 

Ernest George

Jul 18, 2014
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To come back to these voltage regulators for a second.....

This is powerful. So this is a 3-leg component, all you do (in my case) is punch one leg down into the 12v power plane, punch the other leg down into the ground plane and draw a trace from the remaining output to whatever circuit I want to power?? Unreal. That frees up a lot of my current board design restrictions...

Up until now I've been doing all sorts of gymnastics with my traces to feed power to separate circuits located in different places on the board. So the design is getting complex because I've been tapping into the 5V VCC line and running it (in all sorts of odd ways to ensure it doesn't cross over other lines etc.) Now, instead, if my understanding is correct, I can just punch 3 holes in the board, right next to the circuit I want to power, and then punch a leg down to 12V, another to ground, and then a short line to power my circuit?

This is too cool :D The implications are wide-ranging when I think about that and my current layout....This really frees me up on the design side and enables me to precisely power different circuits with specific amounts of power and mA based on the draw of the cricuit - too cool!

Couple more questions though, now that I suspect I've learned the power of the voltage regulator. The Bluetooth module that I was going to power from the 5V VCC line (which shouldn't because I think there's only 28mA overhead above and beyond what the module uses) can now be powered by a voltage regulator :cool: It can operate with an input variance of 3.3V to 5V. My guess is that the smart thing to do is match the regulator to the low side of the power requirement and that this will generate less heat and be 'easier' on the module then forcing more power into it (I did notice that they said the higher the power, the less stable connections get).

I'm looking for one right now, the specs on the module say to use one rated for 3.3v and 150mA. This brings up some q's;

Is my understanding above generally correct?
Should they be heat sinked?
It doesn't look like you can heat sink the SMD versions?

Now here's something interesting that I'm finding. Some through-hole components are dirt-cheap (resistors). Others, like a 150mA power regulator that is rated -40c to 125c are nearly impossible to get in a through-hole design. On the other hand, SMD versions are plentiful and are cheap. And are much smaller. I was originally going to go through-hole with the original prototype with the idea that perhaps I would do a SMD version of the board in the future for fun and as a re-design because I will have learned more and may have a better way to design the board. So I was always intending on doing incremental re-designs in my spare time in keeping with my philosophy of define, design and refine :)

Today I cleared off my desk as it was getting too hectic (overload!) and I went for a drive and thought about my decreasing real estate on the board. I then got to thinking, once more, about SMD. I haven't pulled the trigger on the DigiKey order yet...and I do have a SMD rework station here on my desk and I've done a lot of playing around removing components from spare circuit boards - with great success using both the hot air gun and the iron & wick.

I just played with my CAD program (ExpressPCB) and I found that they have a pre-made SMD component for the 3.3v regulator. In fact, it's got lots of SMD components....
The one thing that bothers me about SMD components is that I took a bunch of resistors (?) off of a computer board with no issue, but they are the size of fleas! I guess I could try to put them back on but I suspect I'll need a larger magnifying glass....
 

Gryd3

Jun 25, 2014
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Is my understanding above generally correct?
Should they be heat sinked?
It doesn't look like you can heat sink the SMD versions?
The LM78XX series voltage regulators for example can be pretty handy. Last I used one, I ended up using a filter capacitor on the output.
I did not heat-sink mine, but burned a small rectangle in my thumb when I went to test if it was working or not. It was still working fine but be careful! Linear regulators can give off a lot of heat if they need to step down higher voltages to the desired target voltage. The heatsink will depend on the current draw of the regulator you plan to use.
I have seen some surface mount components heat-sinked with the ground plane. The specs page will occasionally cover tricks for this.
 

KrisBlueNZ

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To come back to these voltage regulators for a second.....
This is powerful. So this is a 3-leg component, all you do (in my case) is punch one leg down into the 12v power plane, punch the other leg down into the ground plane and draw a trace from the remaining output to whatever circuit I want to power?? Unreal. That frees up a lot of my current board design restrictions...
Up until now I've been doing all sorts of gymnastics with my traces to feed power to separate circuits located in different places on the board. So the design is getting complex because I've been tapping into the 5V VCC line and running it (in all sorts of odd ways to ensure it doesn't cross over other lines etc.) Now, instead, if my understanding is correct, I can just punch 3 holes in the board, right next to the circuit I want to power, and then punch a leg down to 12V, another to ground, and then a short line to power my circuit?
Yes, that's right. Those regulators need decoupling capacitors - one between the input and 0V, and one between the output and 0V - for stability, so that's three components for each local regulator, but the idea is right. It's not normally done though - normally you have only one regulator for the board, and distribute the 5V around the board as needed. But you can do it.
This is too cool :D The implications are wide-ranging when I think about that and my current layout....This really frees me up on the design side and enables me to precisely power different circuits with specific amounts of power and mA based on the draw of the cricuit - too cool!
"... specific amounts of power and mA ..." is an odd way to put it. You can provide different voltages to different parts of the circuit, and each section will draw a different amount of current. The 78(L/M)xx series does not normally include a 3.3V version, but STMicroelectronics make an L78L33 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/L78L33ACZ/497-7288-ND/1038304) and Texas Instruments make a UA78M33 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/UA78M33CKCS/296-21633-5-ND/1494026).

The 78(L/M)xx devices come in three types. The 78Lxx is in a TO-92 transistor package and is rated for 100 mA output current maximum. The 78Mxx comes in a TO-126 package, or similar, which is flat and larger, and is rated for 500 mA output current. And the 78xx series (no letter in the middle) comes in a TO-220 package (a very common package for power transistors and MOSFETs) and is rated for 1A or 1.5A output current depending on the manufacturer.

These devices are very old, and still widely used, and are made by many manufacturers. They have a "dropout voltage" of about 2V. That means that the input voltage must be at least 2V higher than the output voltage, otherwise the regulator will "drop out" of regulation, and the output voltage will be lower than it should be. The regulator needs at least 2V across it to operate properly. This is no problem in your case where there is a 7V differential, but I thought I would mention it anyway.

Because the 78(L/M)xx devices are an old design, their output voltages aren't highly accurate. For example, a 7805's output voltage could be anywhere between 4.75V and 5.25V. Again this isn't normally a problem.

The 78(L/M)xx devices also need a decoupling capacitor on the input and another on the output, for stability and good performance. Download a manufacturer's data sheet and have a look through it for more information, and Google how to use three terminal regulators to see if there are any tutorials - there probably are lots.

For future reference... if you need better performance than you get from a 78(L/M)xx regulator, there are many LDO (low dropout) regulators that need less than 1V difference between input and output - some have dropout voltages of 0.5V and less. And being more modern designs, they also have more accurately regulated output voltages.
Couple more questions though, now that I suspect I've learned the power of the voltage regulator. The Bluetooth module that I was going to power from the 5V VCC line (which shouldn't because I think there's only 28mA overhead above and beyond what the module uses) can now be powered by a voltage regulator :cool: It can operate with an input variance of 3.3V to 5V. My guess is that the smart thing to do is match the regulator to the low side of the power requirement and that this will generate less heat and be 'easier' on the module then forcing more power into it (I did notice that they said the higher the power, the less stable connections get).
That depends on the design of the module. If it uses a regulator inside it to drop the 3.3~5.0V down to 3V, for example, and uses that rail to power everything, including the RF transmitter (which will be the main current drain), that would be right, because the lower the input voltage, the less voltage will be dropped across that regulator, and the less heat it will dissipate. And if they recommend using the lower voltage, then that's a good enough reason to use it.
I'm looking for one right now, the specs on the module say to use one rated for 3.3v and 150mA. This brings up some q's;

Is my understanding above generally correct?
Yes, I think so.
Should they be heat sinked?
You mean the regulator?

You need to calculate the power dissipation in the regulator. This is equal to the voltage dropped by the regulator (which would be 12V - 3.3V, I guess) multiplied by the current flowing through the regulator, which I guess is 150 mA (0.15A), right? In that case the regulator will be forced to dissipate (12 - 3.3) × 0.15 = 1.3W. This will make any small component pretty hot and some heatsinking will be needed, even if it's just an area of copper on the PCB.

Read Steve's excellent resource: https://www.electronicspoint.com/resources/do-i-need-a-heatsink-how-big.29/
It doesn't look like you can heat sink the SMD versions?
Some SMT parts have an "exposed pad" on the underside that's meant to be soldered to an area of copper. SMT parts also transfer heat to the copper through their leads. But generally that's right.

Here is a link Digi-Key's linear voltage regulator selection table, filtered to include only THT devices with 3.3V output, maximum allowable input voltage of at least 15V, and a TO-220 package (heatsinkable). http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?FV=fff40027,fff80182,40011f,40103c,40203a,402209,40316e,4031c6,c00016,1140050,1fc0fec,1fc11be,1fc11d9,1fc11f3,1fc11f5,1fc11f7,1fc11fe,1fc123e,1fc1622,1fc162b,1fc16d8,1fc16e1,1fc178a,2040001,2040006,2040007,204001b,204003c,204003d,2040043,204004c,2040053,2040068,204007f,204008f,2040093,20400aa,2040104,204041f,10a40002,1360001b,1360008e,136000d1,136000de,13600122,1360018b,136001be,136001d5,136001e3,13600211,13600244,13600261,1360029b,136002a7,136002b6,1360032f&ColumnSort=1000011&stock=1&quantity=1&pageSize=250

Any of those will be suitable. But beware, they are all LDOs and LDOs almost always have strict requirements for the output decoupling capacitor. These are described in detail in the manufacturer's data sheet.
Now here's something interesting that I'm finding. Some through-hole components are dirt-cheap (resistors). Others, like a 150mA power regulator that is rated -40c to 125c are nearly impossible to get in a through-hole design. On the other hand, SMD versions are plentiful and are cheap. And are much smaller. I was originally going to go through-hole with the original prototype with the idea that perhaps I would do a SMD version of the board in the future for fun and as a re-design because I will have learned more and may have a better way to design the board. So I was always intending on doing incremental re-designs in my spare time in keeping with my philosophy of define, design and refine :)

Today I cleared off my desk as it was getting too hectic (overload!) and I went for a drive and thought about my decreasing real estate on the board. I then got to thinking, once more, about SMD. I haven't pulled the trigger on the DigiKey order yet...and I do have a SMD rework station here on my desk and I've done a lot of playing around removing components from spare circuit boards - with great success using both the hot air gun and the iron & wick.

I just played with my CAD program (ExpressPCB) and I found that they have a pre-made SMD component for the 3.3v regulator. In fact, it's got lots of SMD components....
The one thing that bothers me about SMD components is that I took a bunch of resistors (?) off of a computer board with no issue, but they are the size of fleas! I guess I could try to put them back on but I suspect I'll need a larger magnifying glass....
SMT resistors aren't generally reused. In fact, SMT components, full stop, aren't generally reused, unless they're really expensive. You can get a kit of standard resistor values in SMT - Digi-Key even have them, I think.

Yes you're right. In the last six months or so, I've seen Digi-Key greatly reduce the THT components in their catalogue. The writing has been on the wall for over a decade. Over two decades, actually. THT components will remain available for a while yet, but for a long time now, most newly introduced devices have been manufactured in SMT only. MOSFETs are a prime example, but also modern ICs - digital and analogue. Microchip have been struggling valiantly to continue to offer some devices in THT and I suspect that's a big reason for their popularity outside professional circles. But if I was a gambler, I'd be buying shares in companies that make prototyping boards for SMT components!
 
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Ernest George

Jul 18, 2014
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Awesome stuff guys :) I'm going to sleep on (it's 2am) it but at this point I'm thinking of doing a complete re-design of my board using SMD's. The increased real estate alone should make it much easier the second time around and...I've already done it once so I bet it will go much faster.

I'm stoked. There's enough meat in this thread to keep me going for a while - time to put it into action! No worries on the decoupling capacitors - I saw information in some of the data sheets I looked at. There were some nice and easy install examples in a few of them.

What really blew me away was that I was under the impression that through-hole components were less money then SMD's because they were old school. I had my shopping cart filled with TH stuff and, on a lark, I went through and crossed everything over to SM devices. In many cases I had (10) TH resistors at $3.50 and for less money I was able to order 100 identical SMD's. If I remember correctly, I got 100 resistors for less then $1 in some cases.

I'll revisit the regulators tomorrow (for some of the better modern ones) and then I'll firm up my order and get into the re-design next week. I'm pretty excited!
 

KrisBlueNZ

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What really blew me away was that I was under the impression that through-hole components were less money then SMD's because they were old school. I had my shopping cart filled with TH stuff and, on a lark, I went through and crossed everything over to SM devices. In many cases I had (10) TH resistors at $3.50 and for less money I was able to order 100 identical SMD's. If I remember correctly, I got 100 resistors for less then $1 in some cases.
Right. Economies of scale, simpler packaging, less material. Manufacturers generally sell small active and passive components on reels of 2000 or more.
I'll revisit the regulators tomorrow (for some of the better modern ones) and then I'll firm up my order and get into the re-design next week. I'm pretty excited!
That's great! :)
 

Ernest George

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Well...with some trepidation I decided to go all SMD :eek:

I just started my second incarnation of the circuit board design, this time with proper spacing of all the connectors and stand off's and I have less real-estate then before :(

Anyway, I'm back to my DigiKey order and I realized the specs for the 3.3v voltage regulator were not correct. So I did some more research for a regulator matching up with these specs;

Input - Up to 16V
Output - 3.3V
Temp Range = -40°C ~ 125°C

and all it came up with is 5 leg units. Am I looking them up wrong as I thought we had 3 leg units, power, ground and output?

Don't mind me, I'm getting burned out :eek: But looking at that regulator (296-18476-1-ND) makes me think again about how you heat sink that puppy.
 

KrisBlueNZ

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You can't really heatsink a SOT-23 package. It will transfer some heat through its legs to the circuit board, and an area of copper around it will help, but you have to limit its power dissipation, otherwise it will overheat.

I think your mistake was to choose "Up to 16V" as your input voltage. This would have eliminated a huge number of suitable alternatives. You need a regulator whose input voltage range includes the 12~16V range (to make sure it's comfortably over-rated and won't be damaged by a slight overvoltage). This includes voltage ranges such as "Up to 20V" which covers 128 components by itself!

Here's a link to the Digi-Key selection table with a suitable filter so you can see all the options: http://www.digikey.com/product-sear...nSort=1000011&stock=1&quantity=1&pageSize=250

Here's a nice cheap one in a DPAK (TO-252) package that can be heatsinked to a copper pad on the top side, and using thermal vias, to a copper pad on the bottom as well. It's a lot bigger than a SOT-23, of course, but you need a decent contact area for proper heatsinking. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/AP1117ID33G-13/AP1117ID33G-13DICT-ND/3677981
 

Ernest George

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Yup, as I removed the 16V restraint the skies opened up :)

The DPAK unit you listed can handle up to 1A. I just checked my design and it looks like there is only one device that's going to need 3.3 volts and that's the bluetooth module which is rated at 150mA. This leads me to a question - is there anything wrong with using a power regulator that's much larger then required or is it better to size it to the specific requirement?

Also, can I use this shunt instead of the one you listed?
http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/TL431AIDBZR/296-17329-1-ND/686885
 
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KrisBlueNZ

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Regulators with higher current capability generally have higher quiescent current as well, so they will waste a bit more power than smaller ones.

In this case the problem is not the output current, it's the power dissipation. As I explained in post #28 (towards the end), power dissipation in a linear regulator is equal to output current multiplied by the voltage drop across the regulator. If you're dropping 12V down to 3.3V then voltage drop is 8.7V. At 150 mA that corresponds to 1.3 watts which is far too much for the little SOT-23 to dissipate. That's why I suggested a larger regulator in a package that can be properly heatsinked to a large PCB copper area. Thermal vias (Google it) are also a good idea.

No, shunt regulators are not suitable where the load draws significant power, and especially when that power is variable. They waste power and can dissipate a lot of heat. They are most suited to low current applications such as voltage references.

Using a switching regulator will solve the power dissipation problem but they are more complicated to design with, require more external components, and require more careful PCB layout than linear regulators. If you're interested, check out the LM2674-3.3 at http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LM2674MX-3.3/NOPB/LM2674MX-3.3/NOPBCT-ND/3526900 and download the data sheet. It contains lots of advice on component selection and PCB layout.
 

Ernest George

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Hi Kris;

OK, so in simple terms, using the 1A regulator will waste a bit of power but it's easier to dissipate the heat with a sink due to it's design. If I've understood correctly that's cool :) and it would leave me with a lot of extra capacity in the event I added something else that runs off 3.3v

With respect to the shunt, I may have confused you. The shunt was called for in the first post above (#21) where you drew out the second revision of the timer circuit (component U2).

The one I was going to use was this one;
http://www.digikey.ca/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=156437343&uq=635452744388248622

but...because I changed everything over to SMD my concern was whether this one one would be a suitable replacement for it;
http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/TL431AIDBZR/296-17329-1-ND/686885

Other then clarifying that, I may be able to place my order :)
 

KrisBlueNZ

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OK, so in simple terms, using the 1A regulator will waste a bit of power but it's easier to dissipate the heat with a sink due to it's design.
Yes. Almost all of the heat your regulator has to dissipate is due to the product of voltage dropped across it and output current. So you CAN'T use a SOT-23 regulator. You NEED a regulator that has a metal tab, large enough to be heatsinked in this way. It will waste a bit more power than a SOT-23 regulator but that's unavoidable.
With respect to the shunt, I may have confused you. The shunt was called for in the first post above (#21) where you drew out the second revision of the timer circuit (component U2).
Ah, sorry. Yes, that SMT version of the TL431 is suitable.
 

Ernest George

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Awesome - order placed. It's not easy to place an order if you haven't done something like this before. It means reading the spec sheets and trying to ensure you have all the bits and pieces (like decoupling caps etc) that will be required for each item. I probably made a mountain out of a molehill but it's done now and I'm back to my new revision of the board design, this time, building densely as possible. :)

Thanks Kris, your help has made it much easier! Speaking of which, can I shoot you a couple of bucks for your time?
 

Ernest George

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BTW, I'm looking at creating the circuit in the schematic above - perhaps a dumb question but the lines on the left are labeled VIN - what is this? :eek:
 

KrisBlueNZ

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Yes, engineering is like that. Lots of things to check to make sure it will work reliably.

Thanks but no payment is necessary.

VIN is the voltage to be monitored. The top wire is positive and the bottom wire is negative. I assumed that the negative side of the voltage you're monitoring is commoned with the 0V rail of the rest of the circuitry.
 
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