Maker Pro
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Use of Extension Cord

B

Big Mouth Billy Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
I've been electrocuted 6 times at proper mains voltage (240, not your pansy 110), and I'm still alive.

Does "electrocute" mean something other than "to cause death with an
electric shock" in your corner of the English speaking world? The
etymology of the word is "to execute by use of electricity." Very few
references allow for the word to also apply to severe injury. Perhaps
you are a cat, and have three lives left?
 
B

Big Mouth Billy Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
I don't see what the problem would be with using a regular extension
cord with a vcr, tv, or cordless telephone since they're often located
in areas of a room where the cord is not exposed. One of my problems is
that my tv, vcr, and cable box can only be put in one area of the room
and there is only one outlet there. This means that I can only plug in
the tv and cable box. Where am I supposed to plug in the vcr at? That's
why I need an extension cord. But of course, the manual says not to use
it (and the same thing for the cordless telephone).

The best thing to do is to buy a switched outlet strip with a 15 amp
circuit breaker. By design, it will likely also include some minimal
surge suppression. The typical extension cord is not meant for
permanent applications. Too wimpy; too subject to abuse by overload.
 
P

Peter Hucker

Jan 1, 1970
0
Does "electrocute" mean something other than "to cause death with an
electric shock" in your corner of the English speaking world? The
etymology of the word is "to execute by use of electricity." Very few
references allow for the word to also apply to severe injury. Perhaps
you are a cat, and have three lives left?

Another pedant. I, and almost everyone I've ever met who has spoken about electricity, uses "electrocute" as a synonym for "electric shock". Here's a clue for you - not everyone speaks like they've swallowed a dictionary.
 
P

Peter Hucker

Jan 1, 1970
0
That's a very common extension cord, and the most likely reason
consumers are advised against using them.

In the UK it would be illegal to sell such a cord.
 
P

Peter Hucker

Jan 1, 1970
0
The best thing to do is to buy a switched outlet strip with a 15 amp
circuit breaker. By design, it will likely also include some minimal
surge suppression. The typical extension cord is not meant for
permanent applications. Too wimpy; too subject to abuse by overload.

In the UK, I simply buy a 4 way strip for £2.99 - it's got a 13A fuse both in the plug and in the strip (they all do, or they're illegal). For a quid extra I can get one with basic surge suppression.
 
B

Big Mouth Billy Bass

Jan 1, 1970
0
Another pedant. I, and almost everyone I've ever met who has spoken about electricity,
uses "electrocute" as a synonym for "electric shock"..

You've met some strange people. I've met exactly zero people who so
severely misunderstand the word.
Here's a clue for you - not
everyone speaks like they've swallowed a dictionary

OK, here's a clue for you - stalwart defense of ignorance is stupid in
the extreme. You've been twice corrected; a sensible man would accept
the corrections and be improved by the process. An ignorant man will
belittle those who attempt to educate him. Your choice.

And oh by the way, your use of the word "pedant" is also incorrect.
 
P

Peter Bennett

Jan 1, 1970
0
Try writing that again!

I suspect he meant to say "Our 120 V sockets are different from our
240 V sockets"
Anyway you said you had different current outlets earlier. Just what outlets do exist in US homes?

Almost all outlets in US and Canadian homes and offices are 120 volt.
In older construction, they would be protected by 15 amp breakers in
the distribution panel, but 20 amp is more common now. A single
breaker will normally feed several outlets. The same style outlets are
used for both 15 and 20 amp circuits - two parallel blades for hot and
neutral, and a "U" shaped pin for ground/earth.

240 Volt outlets are usually only provided for high power devices,
like electric stoves and clothes dryers. These outlets are different
than the 120 volt style - there is no possibility of putting a 120
volt plug in a 240 volt outlet, or vice versa.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca
 
P

Peter Hucker

Jan 1, 1970
0
You've met some strange people. I've met exactly zero people who so
severely misunderstand the word.

You don't get it at all do you? People are not machines. Words are not precise. And they vary vastly from place to place.
OK, here's a clue for you - stalwart defense of ignorance is stupid in
the extreme. You've been twice corrected; a sensible man would accept
the corrections and be improved by the process. An ignorant man will
belittle those who attempt to educate him. Your choice.

And oh by the way, your use of the word "pedant" is also incorrect.

You just shot yourself in the foot.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

Three Scousers and three Mancs are travelling by train to a football match in London.
At the station, the three Mancs each buy a ticket and watch as the three Scousers buy just one ticket between them.
"How are the three of you going to travel on only one ticket?" asks one of the Mancs.
"Watch and learn," answers one of the Scousers. They all board the train. The Mancs take their respective seats but all three Scousers cram into a toilet and close the door behind them.
Shortly after the train has departed, the conductor arrives to collect the tickets. He knocks on the toilet door and says, "Ticket please."
The door opens just a crack and a single arm emerges with a ticket in hand. The conductor takes it and moves on. The Mancs are mightily impressed by this, so after the game, they decide to copy the Scousers on the return trip and save some money.
When they get to the station, they buy a single ticket for the return trip...To their astonishment; the Scousers don't buy a ticket at all!!!
"How are you going to travel without a ticket?" asks one perplexed Mancunian. Watch and learn..." says one Scouser.
When they board the train the three Mancs cram into a toilet and soon after the three Scousers pile into another nearby.
The train departs. Shortly afterwards, one of the Scousers leaves the toilet and sneaks across to the toilet where the Mancs are hiding.
He knocks on the door and says, "Ticket please..."
 
P

Peter Hucker

Jan 1, 1970
0
I suspect he meant to say "Our 120 V sockets are different from our
240 V sockets"


Almost all outlets in US and Canadian homes and offices are 120 volt.
In older construction, they would be protected by 15 amp breakers in
the distribution panel, but 20 amp is more common now. A single
breaker will normally feed several outlets. The same style outlets are
used for both 15 and 20 amp circuits - two parallel blades for hot and
neutral, and a "U" shaped pin for ground/earth.

It's the mixture of 15 and 20 amp that's odd. The UK used to have this mess - 5 amp and 15 amp - but we had different sockets for each (small and large).
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
You're missing the point completely. The 13 amp fuse in the extension cord is NOT to protect things you plug into it. These should already be protected by the fuses in their own plugs. The 13 amp fuse in the extension cord is to protect the extension cord from being overloaded, by a total of more than 13 amps worth of devices being plugged into the end of it.

---
A 15 amp breaker will do essentially the same thing if it's placed
in front of the cord since, in either case, the cord will be
expected to carry 13 or 15 amps before the protection device
activates. The problem with the 13 amp device at the end of the
cord is that the cord will still be hot if it's at the load end,
while if it's at the generator end it's just redundant since the
breaker in the service panel will trip and cut off the power to the
outlet.
---
Just as your fused outlet does NOT protect the appliance you plug into it, as the appliance (and it's cord) are most likely of a lower current rating than the outlet. The fuse is to protect the OUTLET from being overlaoded.

---
Since the outlet, itself, is surrounded by a non-flammable
enclosure, the breaker is there to keep the wiring from becoming
overheated and causing a fire.
---
So you have just told me that a #18 cord will happily take 15 amps. Yet earlier you compared it to a "13A monster" as though the 13A one was overkill?

---
Not "happily" since, at 1.5 watts per foot it will get warm. But
nothing to worry about, either, unless you do something stupid like
run it under a rug.

It may very well be overkill, but then, overkill varies in the eye
of the beholder. Why don't you tell us what one of your 13A
monsters comprises?
---
When I said pansies I was referring to electric shocks. I don't wish my house to burn down and cause me financial losses when I am not at home to operate the extinguisher.

---
Then CYA with insurance.
---
No, the instructions are read if you don't know how to use the device.

---
And you've never had to read the instructions because you always
knew exacty how to run the device? LOL, you must lead a _very_
simple life!
---
But you have a mixture of different voltage and current outlets - must be highly inconvenient, aswell as providing the possibility of people plugging the wrong thing in the wrong place.

---
Actually, quite convenient as well as economical. Our very
inexpensive (less than $1, yet still meet code) garden-variety 120V
receptacles are physically different from our more expensive 240V
receptacles.
---
Try writing that again!

---
Hmmm... Perhaps that's why you don't read instructions.
---
Anyway you said you had different current outlets earlier. Just what outlets do exist in US homes?

---
If the thing brews by time instead of temperature I suspect he's
getting stronger/more bitter coffee than he should be.
---
No, but you were wittering on about my FUSED extension cord as though the fuse would make it more dangerous.

---
It might, psychologically. Knowing that an extension cord has a
fuse in it might lull one into a sense of false security, While
knowing that the extension cord is _always_ hot would take that that
sense away.
---
If we had a thinner insulation it would not be as resistant to getting damaged. A UK 240V mains cord most likely has enough insulation for a few kV (the flimsy ribbon cable for IDE hard drives for example is rated at 300 volts!), but if it was only just thick enough, it would get damaged through handling.

---
So what? the point was that your cables might not be thinner because
of the insulation requirements, even though the conductor diameter
might be smaller. In any case, apples for apples, a 13 amp 120V
extension cord would be thinner than a 13 amp 240V extension cord.
---
It is more dangerous, but it's still trivial.

---
I see that Darwin Award getting closer...
---
That wouldn't stop my heart getting knackered.

---
Sure it would, since it's your head that dictates where you put your
fingers.
---
You don't get it at all do you? You're a pedant. Go look it up and learn something.

---
Don't like being made responsible for your inaccuracies? Too bad.
---
This is like talking to a brick wall. You don't get it at all do you? You're a pedant. Go look it up and learn something.

---
Don't like being made responsible for your inaccuracies? Too bad.

You liken it to talking to a brick wall because you don't do logic
well, you can't handle being wrong, and I won't let you off the
hook.

Don't like talking to a brick wall? Then stop talking.
---
Too complicated for you was it? Cause is what makes the thing happen. The cause in the murder case is me. The cause in the drill case is the faulty drill.

---
Using that logic, the cause could have been any of the factors
leading up to the broken neck. In both cases, however, what
_caused_ the death was the broken neck. The responsibility for the
death is quite another matter, and in the case of your willfully
pushing the ladder over in order to effect the death, the
responsibility is clearly yours. The responsibility in the case of
the drill is a little more difficult to define, and could involve
carelessness on the part of the manufacturer, improper use by the
deceased, or even something as simple as a faulty extension cord.
---
No, a simple question, as they are inconvenient. Any appliance which requires you to climb or move around a lot is a hell of a lot easier to use if it's cordless.

---
More attempted diversionary bullshit.

The question was "Who uses corded drills anyway?". Nothing was
mentioned about inconvenience or any of the rest of it.
---
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
In the UK, I simply buy a 4 way strip for £2.99 - it's got a 13A fuse both in the plug and in the strip (they all do, or they're illegal). For a quid extra I can get one with basic surge suppression.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
You don't get it at all do you? People are not machines. Words are not precise. And they vary vastly from place to place.

---
I see... When you make an error and are apprised of it, we who
apprise you don't "get it", and you blame your error on what you
would like to consider the vagaries of the language. Certainly it
_couldn't_ be you who is at fault...
---
 
P

Peter Hucker

Jan 1, 1970
0
---
A 15 amp breaker will do essentially the same thing if it's placed
in front of the cord since, in either case, the cord will be
expected to carry 13 or 15 amps before the protection device
activates. The problem with the 13 amp device at the end of the
cord is that the cord will still be hot if it's at the load end,
while if it's at the generator end it's just redundant since the
breaker in the service panel will trip and cut off the power to the
outlet.

That's ok if the outlet has its own breaker. And if all cords you can buy are the same rating, which you've said is not the case in the US. You could buy an unfused extension cord of less than 15 amps, and the 15 amp breaker would not stop you overloading this cord with 15 amps.

Yes you're right, the fuse at the load end does not cut off the power to the cord, but it does stop you overloading it. The appliances are still shut off if you exceed 13 amps. There is always a 13A fuse in the plug anyway, so I'm not sure why they all have a fuse at the load end aswell.

I hate breakers anyway - they are too damn sensitive. At work for example, we have a trolley of 15 laptops. If you plug the trolley into an outlet with a 30 amp breaker, it quite often trips (presumbly all the laptop PSUs have a large inrush current, and if I mistime it and plug it in at the peak of the sinewave it exceeds 30 amps momentarily). No problem with a fused outlet. Maybe you can get less sensitive breakers, but ours are certainly very jumpy.

I was inaccurate, yes it's the house WIRING the breaker is protecting, not the actual outlet. We have those breakers (or fuses) too. Although our houses are wired in a strange manner - a 30A breaker or fuse in the main box serving half the outlets in the house (there are usually two sets - upstairs and downstairs if it's a 2-storey house). The outlets are 13 amps. So you can plug a 30 amp device into a 13 amp outlet. Except I suppose that never happens, as you can't buy 30 amp devices, and if you plugged two 13 amp devices into an adapter, the adapter would have its own 13 amp fuse which would blow. We also have what's called "ring mains" - the outlets are all connected in a circle around the house, with 15 amp cable for a 30 amp circuit. Cost saving I believe. Shouldn't cause a problem, unless of course one of the cables becomes detached, causing you to have a 15 amp cable protected by a 30 amp fuse or breaker.

People do tend to leave them coiled up if they are too long for the task. I've seen extensions on a reel (like a hosepipe) which have two current ratings: one for extended, and one for rolled up.
It may very well be overkill, but then, overkill varies in the eye
of the beholder. Why don't you tell us what one of your 13A
monsters comprises?

They're not monsters, the cable isn't that thick. I'm not sure what # you'd call it (or even if the US and the UK use the same system), but if I use one with 13 amps going through it, it doesn't get the slightest bit warm.

I suppose if I was making my own extension cord (you can't buy them like this anymore) I could use thinner cheaper wire, which I've done in the past. But I always end up needing to use it for a different appliance some other time which needs more current.

ROFL! I had to look hatup - I take it you mean "Cover Your Ass"?

Insurance only pays for the finances. It does not replace family heirlooms, or dead pets.

No, I'm just so clever I don't need to ;-)

I only read instructions as a last resort.
---
Actually, quite convenient as well as economical. Our very
inexpensive (less than $1, yet still meet code) garden-variety 120V
receptacles are physically different from our more expensive 240V
receptacles.

But.... for a given power of appliance you have thicker cord and thicker cable in the walls than we do at 240 volts.

What? You wrote "Our 120V sockets are different from out 120V sockets"

So there are no different current-rated outlets? Just the 240 volt and 120 volt?

Another point - I see your plugs don't have to have an earth prong. Our sockets have shutters over the live (er... hot) and neutral so kids can't stick god knows what in there without sticking something in the earth hole first. A german student over here in the UK used to carry a screwdriver in his pocket which he called an "adapter" - he shoved it in the earth hole to allow the german 2 pin plugs to fit in the UK sockets!!

What do you mean? He didn't run it off 240 volts, that would no doubt have blown the thing up.
---
It might, psychologically. Knowing that an extension cord has a
fuse in it might lull one into a sense of false security, While
knowing that the extension cord is _always_ hot would take that that
sense away.

Psychologists are as pointless as lawyers :)

Anyway I doubt 90% of people know enough about electricity to think that way.
---
So what? the point was that your cables might not be thinner because
of the insulation requirements, even though the conductor diameter
might be smaller. In any case, apples for apples, a 13 amp 120V
extension cord would be thinner than a 13 amp 240V extension cord.

My point is it isn't thinner. Your 120 volt 13 amp cord will be just fine at 240 volts. The insulator thickness is probably a minimum reuqired to stop it being damaged through handling. Look how flimsy an IDE ribbon cable is. That's rated at 300 volts.

Nah, I'll more likely die in a car accident. At 140mph. Gotta love speed camera detectors!

In which case a THIN head would stop my heart getting knackered. A thick one would cause me to misplace my fingers.

No, I don't care about minor inaccuracies. Try allowing for context, reading between the lines, etc. Don't take every word at dictionary meaning.
---
Don't like being made responsible for your inaccuracies? Too bad.

You liken it to talking to a brick wall because you don't do logic
well, you can't handle being wrong, and I won't let you off the
hook.

Don't like talking to a brick wall? Then stop talking.

I am alledgedly talking to a human being, not a computer. Humans are not 100% logical, so I don't expect to have to use precision words - this is not Germany.
---
Using that logic, the cause could have been any of the factors
leading up to the broken neck. In both cases, however, what
_caused_ the death was the broken neck. The responsibility for the
death is quite another matter, and in the case of your willfully
pushing the ladder over in order to effect the death, the
responsibility is clearly yours. The responsibility in the case of
the drill is a little more difficult to define, and could involve
carelessness on the part of the manufacturer, improper use by the
deceased, or even something as simple as a faulty extension cord.

A causes B to cause C to cause D to cause E. What is the cause of E?
---
More attempted diversionary bullshit.

The question was "Who uses corded drills anyway?". Nothing was
mentioned about inconvenience or any of the rest of it.

So sorry for not sticking precisely to the subject (rolls eyes in disbelief).

I was merely stating an advantage, silly.
 
P

Peter Hucker

Jan 1, 1970
0
I was stating that we don't have the problem of "too wimpy; too subject to abuse by overload."
 
P

Peter Hucker

Jan 1, 1970
0
---
I see... When you make an error and are apprised of it, we who
apprise you don't "get it", and you blame your error on what you
would like to consider the vagaries of the language. Certainly it
_couldn't_ be you who is at fault...

You don't appear to be able to distinguish between an error and an imperfectly correct term.
---
Hmmm... perhaps because of the vagaries of the language or because
of your admitted reticence to consult a lexicon you think 'pedant'
means something other than what the rest of us do. How about a
definition so that we can clear it up, OK?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pedant
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
People do tend to leave them coiled up if they are too long for the task. I've seen extensions on a reel (like a hosepipe) which have two current ratings: one for extended, and one for rolled up.

---
Yes. Coiled up, the thermal resistance to ambient increases for the
cable surrounded by cable, so its temperature will increase.
---

They're not monsters, the cable isn't that thick. I'm not sure what # you'd call it (or even if the US and the UK use the same system), but if I use one with 13 amps going through it, it doesn't get the slightest bit warm.

---
What's the wire diameter and the overall diameter of the jacket for
13A?
---
I suppose if I was making my own extension cord (you can't buy them like this anymore)

---
Are you only allowed to have 13 amp extension cords? What lengths?
---
I could use thinner cheaper wire, which I've done in the past.
But I always end up needing to use it for a different appliance
some other time which needs more current.

ROFL! I had to look hatup - I take it you mean "Cover Your Ass"?

Insurance only pays for the finances. It does not replace family heirlooms, or dead pets.

---
Mine pays for _everything_ except dead pets. The house, the
contents of the house, _everything_.
---
No, I'm just so clever I don't need to ;-)

I only read instructions as a last resort.

---
So, we've gone from "I never read instructions" to "I only read
instructions as a last resort." I'd consider that headway...
---

But.... for a given power of appliance you have thicker cord and thicker cable in the walls than we do at 240 volts.

---
Perhaps. I don't know what your requiremants are for premises
wiring, So I'll neither agree nor disagree with you until you post
some relevant data.
---
What? You wrote "Our 120V sockets are different from out 120V sockets"

---
Yes. my error. It should have been "Our 120V sockets are different
from our 240 sockets."
---
So there are no different current-rated outlets? Just the 240 volt and 120 volt?

---
No, there are 30A receptacles available as well as 20's.
---
Another point - I see your plugs don't have to have an earth prong.

---
Wrong. The "U" shaped opening leads to a ground contact.
---

Our sockets have shutters over the live (er... hot) and neutral so
kids can't stick god knows what in there without sticking something
in the earth hole first. A german student over here in the UK used
to carry a screwdriver in his pocket which he called an "adapter" -
he shoved it in the earth hole to allow the german 2 pin plugs to
fit in the UK sockets!!

---
We have receptacle covers which, if we have children running around
loose, we insert into unused receptacles which are difficult for
little fingers to remove. Of course, if they're intent in sticking
something into an outlet they'll just unplug the lamp or whatever
and go on with their adventure, much as they would by sticking
something into the earth hole in yours and then going on with the
rest of it.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean? He didn't run it off 240 volts, that would no doubt have blown the thing up.[/QUOTE]

---
3 minutes at 60Hz = 3.6 minutes at 50Hz.
---

Psychologists are as pointless as lawyers :)

---
No one's talking about psychologists.

Moreover, psychology isn't pointless, and neither is law.
---
Anyway I doubt 90% of people know enough about electricity to think that way.

---
It has very little to do with knowledge of electricity, and
everything to do with the perception of safety, so your doubts have
nothing to do with it. Try this: Ask a bunch of people ignorant
about electricity whether they'd rather hold onto an extension cord
with a fuse in it or an extension cord without a fuse in it and post
back with what you find, OK?
---
My point is it isn't thinner. Your 120 volt 13 amp cord will be just fine at 240 volts. The insulator thickness is probably a minimum reuqired to stop it being damaged through handling. Look how flimsy an IDE ribbon cable is. That's rated at 300 volts.

---
We're not talking about IDE cables, we're talking about extension
cords designed to carry mains voltages safely and the requirements
for _those_ cables, so knock off the horseshit about what'll be
"just fine" and what won't, and post some specifications.
---
Nah, I'll more likely die in a car accident. At 140mph. Gotta love speed camera detectors!
[/QUOTE]

In which case a THIN head would stop my heart getting knackered. A thick one would cause me to misplace my fingers.[/QUOTE]

---
Precisely. And you've already misplaced your fingers, by your own
admission, at least six times. To me, that shouts, "THICK!"
---

No, I don't care about minor inaccuracies. Try allowing for context, reading between the lines, etc. Don't take every word at dictionary meaning.

---
Convenient for you, huh? That would let you get away with all kinds
of crap with impunity. This is a _technical_ newsgroup for,
basically, newbies and if you can't be bothered to be accurate and
provide good information for them, what the hell good are you?
---
I am alledgedly talking to a human being, not a computer. Humans are not 100% logical, so I don't expect to have to use precision words - this is not Germany.

---
So Germans aren't human?

So far all it seems you're interested in doing is playing "My dog's
bigger than your dog" and engaging in some banal crap, so you're
getting what you deserve.

Again, this _is_ a technical forum, so if you want to be technical
then you'll be expected to be precise with your language.

If you don't, and all you want to do is **** around, the expect to
be fucked with. Welcome to usenet.
 
J

John Fields

Jan 1, 1970
0
I was stating that we don't have the problem of "too wimpy; too subject to abuse by overload."

---
So what? That has nothing to to with solving his problem, it's just
you trying to lord it over him with your
"We're better than you are." crap.

His problem can easily be solved by buying an extension cord rated
for the service he needs, which we can easily find over here.
 
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