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Utah Mine Disaster and Robots

  • Thread starter Paul Hovnanian P.E.
  • Start date
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Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
It seems they just finished drilling a shaft down to the mine in Utah
and promptly abandoned it when the camera they dropped down it didn't
have a decent field of view.

There are a number of companies who build various robots (more
accurately, remotely guided vehicles) for bomb inspection and other
hazardous applications. Some of these have tracks instead of wheels to
negotiate rough terrain. It would seem like a good idea to drop one of
these with a camera down the pipe and have it look around where fixed
cameras can't go.

Does anyone make such a unit capable of being deployed down a 6 inch
pipe?
 
G

Glen Walpert

Jan 1, 1970
0
It seems they just finished drilling a shaft down to the mine in Utah
and promptly abandoned it when the camera they dropped down it didn't
have a decent field of view.

There are a number of companies who build various robots (more
accurately, remotely guided vehicles) for bomb inspection and other
hazardous applications. Some of these have tracks instead of wheels to
negotiate rough terrain. It would seem like a good idea to drop one of
these with a camera down the pipe and have it look around where fixed
cameras can't go.

Does anyone make such a unit capable of being deployed down a 6 inch
pipe?

Great idea, a search on "pipe inspection robots" turned up some real
products such as
http://www.sys4s.com/pipeinspectionrobots.html
which will go down the bore, but might not be able to handle the mine
floor. I have seen tracked versions in the past which might work
better. I'll bet if the mine owner were to get someone calling pipe
inspection robot manufacturers something usable could be found.
 
M

mpm

Jan 1, 1970
0
It seems they just finished drilling a shaft down to the mine in Utah
and promptly abandoned it when the camera they dropped down it didn't
have a decent field of view.

There are a number of companies who build various robots (more
accurately, remotely guided vehicles) for bomb inspection and other
hazardous applications. Some of these have tracks instead of wheels to
negotiate rough terrain. It would seem like a good idea to drop one of
these with a camera down the pipe and have it look around where fixed
cameras can't go.

Does anyone make such a unit capable of being deployed down a 6 inch
pipe?

You would also think that with potentially six miner's lives at stake,
they could drill more than one hole at a time.

They should have had a dozen or more drills up there (or en-route)
making swiss cheese out of the place. Worst case, they miss (but it
would be an educated miss). Best case, they gain valuable time when
their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.. attempts come up empty.

-mpm
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
mpm said:
You would also think that with potentially six miner's lives at stake,
they could drill more than one hole at a time.

They should have had a dozen or more drills up there (or en-route)
making swiss cheese out of the place. Worst case, they miss (but it
would be an educated miss). Best case, they gain valuable time when
their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.. attempts come up empty.

After the second hole hit a spot with a poor view, I'd have sent someone
down to the local hobby shop to pick up an RF controlled car and a
wireless TV camera and slid that down the pipe along with an antenna.
Evenn if it can only maneuver a few dozen yards from the pipe, it might
see something that the fixed camera couldn't. That would be a small
price compared to another hole.

I'm wondering if someone has something a little less toy-like available.
Maybe not specifically for mine use, but a spec for an inspection robot
that has to be inserted through a 6 inch pipe might have quite a few
uses.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:p[email protected]
------------------------------------------------------------------
100 buckets of bits on the bus
100 buckets of bits
You take one down,
and short it to ground
FF buckets of bits on the bus
 
M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
It seems they just finished drilling a shaft down to the mine in Utah
and promptly abandoned it when the camera they dropped down it didn't
have a decent field of view.

There are a number of companies who build various robots (more
accurately, remotely guided vehicles) for bomb inspection and other
hazardous applications. Some of these have tracks instead of wheels to
negotiate rough terrain. It would seem like a good idea to drop one of
these with a camera down the pipe and have it look around where fixed
cameras can't go.

Does anyone make such a unit capable of being deployed down a 6 inch
pipe?

They make things for pipe inspection that may do the trick. They are
remote controlled not robots but perhaps one of them could be driven
far enough along the floor to see down the tunnel.
 
J

Joerg

Jan 1, 1970
0
Paul said:
After the second hole hit a spot with a poor view, I'd have sent someone
down to the local hobby shop to pick up an RF controlled car and a
wireless TV camera and slid that down the pipe along with an antenna.
Evenn if it can only maneuver a few dozen yards from the pipe, it might
see something that the fixed camera couldn't. That would be a small
price compared to another hole.

I'm wondering if someone has something a little less toy-like available.
Maybe not specifically for mine use, but a spec for an inspection robot
that has to be inserted through a 6 inch pipe might have quite a few
uses.

Those wouldn't get far on the rocky and rough floor of a mine. But I am
sure that the drilling caused a lot of noise and that the miners would
bang onto some kind of pipes or whatever runs through the shafts and
that could be heard. Problem is that this is a checker board of a mine.
 
M

mpm

Jan 1, 1970
0
I'm wondering if someone has something a little less toy-like available.
Maybe not specifically for mine use, but a spec for an inspection robot
that has to be inserted through a 6 inch pipe might have quite a few
uses.

Gerbil-cam?
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
You would also think that with potentially six miner's lives at stake,
they could drill more than one hole at a time.

They should have had a dozen or more drills up there (or en-route)
making swiss cheese out of the place. Worst case, they miss (but it
would be an educated miss). Best case, they gain valuable time when
their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.. attempts come up empty.

They probably didn't want to cause more cave-ins.

Thanks,
Rich
 
J

JosephKK

Jan 1, 1970
0
MooseFET [email protected] posted to sci.electronics.design:
They make things for pipe inspection that may do the trick. They
are remote controlled not robots but perhaps one of them could be
driven far enough along the floor to see down the tunnel.

A concept for us all to keep in mind, the bore is about 1700
meters / yards deep to get to the miners. This introduces new
factors to simplistic approaches.
 
M

mpm

Jan 1, 1970
0
They probably didn't want to cause more cave-ins.

I agree that is what they will say, if / when pressed on the issue.
But you would not feel that way if you were one of the trapped miners.

And if a couple dozen 2" holes cause that much trouble 1700-feet down,
we'll likely never get them out alive anyway... -mpm
 
J

Jim Yanik

Jan 1, 1970
0
MooseFET [email protected] posted to sci.electronics.design:


A concept for us all to keep in mind, the bore is about 1700
meters / yards deep to get to the miners. This introduces new
factors to simplistic approaches.

And there may be trapped gasses (or airborne coal dust)that any spark could
ignite.
 
M

MooseFET

Jan 1, 1970
0
A concept for us all to keep in mind, the bore is about 1700
meters / yards deep to get to the miners. This introduces new
factors to simplistic approaches.

I thought they said that many feet.

At 1700 meters, the video signal in the cable won't look very good.
The cables used for pipe inspecting sorts of things use very small
coaxes that are quite lossy. The electronics has a high frequency
boost to correct for the cable losses. There are limits on how much
of this you can do.
 
It seems they just finished drilling a shaft down to the mine in Utah
and promptly abandoned it when the camera they dropped down it didn't
have a decent field of view.

Does anyone make such a unit capable of being deployed down a 6 inch
pipe?

Given the rought terrain, how about a disposable camera-carrying radio
controlled blimp?

Lower it a small canister on a cable containing antenna, feedline, and
release mechanism.

It drops to the floor, inflates out of the canister, and then you can
fly around for as long as the batteries last.

Of course the link will be somewhat limited beyond line-of-sight to
the entry point. Carrying a spool of cable/fiber is probably not
practical with a small flying vehicle. Some little repeaters to
drop? Or maybe drop a second blimp and ground the first to act as a
repeater?

One also wonders if there would be a way to bury armored feedlines
(trench in the floor then refilled?) leading deep into the mine as a
mater of course, and have some things like this pre-positioned so that
you don't even have to weight for the drill.
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jan 1, 1970
0
MooseFET said:
At 1700 meters, the video signal in the cable won't look very good.
The cables used for pipe inspecting sorts of things use very small
coaxes that are quite lossy. The electronics has a high frequency
boost to correct for the cable losses. There are limits on how much
of this you can do.

At some point you're better off going wireless since the power loss follows
1/R^2 rather than exp(-kR) as it does for coax cables.

In coax it's eventually the power that limits you. Something like LMR-195
(RG-58 size -- ~0.2" diameter) is ~0.8dB/100ft. at 5MHz (plenty for reasonable
video images), so that's 45dB loss over 1.7km -- still quite workable starting
with modest power levels (and RG-58 will handle plenty of power... of course,
getting that power into the cable is another matter).
 
At 1700 meters, the video signal in the cable won't look very good.
The cables used for pipe inspecting sorts of things use very small
coaxes that are quite lossy. The electronics has a high frequency
boost to correct for the cable losses. There are limits on how much
of this you can do.

You could switch to fiber...

You could reduce the frame rate...

You could use digital compression....
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
mpm said:
I agree that is what they will say, if / when pressed on the issue.
But you would not feel that way if you were one of the trapped miners.

And if a couple dozen 2" holes cause that much trouble 1700-feet down,
we'll likely never get them out alive anyway... -mpm


Have you looked at the sat photos of the uneven, rocky ground above
that mine?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
Given the rought terrain, how about a disposable camera-carrying radio
controlled blimp?

Lower it a small canister on a cable containing antenna, feedline, and
release mechanism.

It drops to the floor, inflates out of the canister, and then you can
fly around for as long as the batteries last.

The downside of a blimp is that it may get hung up in something without
constant control inputs from the remote operator. A wheeled or tracked
vehicle can move slowly and stop to examine the terrain before
proceeding.
Of course the link will be somewhat limited beyond line-of-sight to
the entry point. Carrying a spool of cable/fiber is probably not
practical with a small flying vehicle. Some little repeaters to
drop? Or maybe drop a second blimp and ground the first to act as a
repeater?

A gerry-rigged system might only have a few hundred yards range inside a
mine. But that's a few hundred yards further than they can see now.

If I were designing such a robot for this job, I'd give it the ability
to deploy some low powered sensor/repeater nodes that form a mesh
network. As the robot reaches the limits of its comm range, it just
drops another node. These nodes can be equipped with some sensor
capability in addition to their networking function (in the event a live
miner walks by) and can provide some navigational data based on how the
network configures itself.
One also wonders if there would be a way to bury armored feedlines
(trench in the floor then refilled?) leading deep into the mine as a
mater of course, and have some things like this pre-positioned so that
you don't even have to weight for the drill.

Pre-position some mesh network nodes, connected to a power and comm
buss, but with a low power, battery backed up mode. That way, if the
feeds become severed, they begin autonomous operation. During normal
mine operation, they provide normal operations networking functions.

If a standard can be developed for such devices, than communications and
rescue equipment (both walkie-talkies and robots) can be designed to
take advantage of existing nodes in place and new nodes only need to be
deployed to bridge damaged areas.
 
P

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Jan 1, 1970
0
You could switch to fiber...

That's what they use for hi-def video feeds from submersible vehicles.
They can do several miles with such equipment.
You could reduce the frame rate...

You could use digital compression....

These would be employed for lower power r.f. telemetry between the
deployment point and the robot.
 
The downside of a blimp is that it may get hung up in something

Yes. However, if it can be made cheaply enough (maybe $200) you just
drop in another. And the stuck one is there as a repeater. You could
also
have both tracked and flying vehicles available...

Or a jumping vehicle... Or 9" mechanical cockroaches...
If I were designing such a robot for this job, I'd give it the ability
to deploy some low powered sensor/repeater nodes that form a mesh
network. As the robot reaches the limits of its comm range, it just
drops another node.

Yes, I like the mesh netowrking. But in addition to dropable nodes,
between multiple cheap (abandon when stuck / out of motive juice)
vehicles too.
Pre-position some mesh network nodes, connected to a power and comm
buss, but with a low power, battery backed up mode. That way, if the
feeds become severed, they begin autonomous operation. During normal
mine operation, they provide normal operations networking functions.

I believe some work is also being done on VLF communications for
mining use/rescure.
But I don't know if you can get enough antenna and power on a portable
vehicle,
and penetration was a few hundred feet, likely not enough to reach
outside on its own.

Would be interesting if you could do pre-placed wired nodes, with
backup VLF capability to bridge gaps where the feeder is seperated.
 
M

mpm

Jan 1, 1970
0
You could switch to fiber...

You could reduce the frame rate...

You could use digital compression....

It would almost have to be fiber anyway.

The weight of coax (1700-feet unsupported) will probably stretch it
out like a angle hair pasta. In other words, worthless as
transmission line. Not to mention the RF losses.

I'm thinking a little battery operated camera with an fiber-optic
interface, towed on a small steel cable, also carrying a fiber. I'd
be really surprised if they're doing it any other way.

Also, FYI - RF propagation in underground coal mines is pretty much
line-of-sight, for reason too complicated to get into here, unless you
want to... -mpm
 
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