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What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?

T

terryc

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yes, but as revs increase the torque tapers off to nothing making them
completely useless for towing (beyond taking off perhaps where maximum
torque is available at 0 revs) or high speed acceleration.

Isn't that a bit like saying a porche is useless for shipping freight.
electric cars are generally solf for a particular use.
In any case, it is simply a matter of designing the control circuits to
handle the situation.
 
T

terryc

Jan 1, 1970
0
With the Volt going to cost $60k plus the cost of the panels, the
economics are highly suspect.

Yep, these cars are sold at status symbols.
 
S

Sylvia Else

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yep, these cars are sold at status symbols.

Though it's far from clear which status is being symbolised.

Sylvia.
 
C

Clocky

Jan 1, 1970
0
terryc said:
Isn't that a bit like saying a porche is useless for shipping freight.

You can buy a Porsche quite capable of towing. You can't buy any electric
car suitable for towing or long range driving load carrying.
electric cars are generally solf for a particular use.

Restricted by their inherent problems from other uses you mean.
In any case, it is simply a matter of designing the control circuits
to handle the situation.

Electric motors don't produce torque at high revs, that's a fundamental
design limitation. If you use gearing you then increase the load and power
consumption, reducing their range.
So you end up with a light weight chassis, incapable of towing and bloody
expensive to produce.
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0

**Good. I accept your admission that you are wrong.


, but as revs increase the torque tapers off to nothing making them
completely useless for towing (beyond taking off perhaps where maximum
torque is available at 0 revs) or high speed acceleration.

**Bollocks. Electric motors are quite unlike IC motors, in that maximum
torque is generated at zero RPM and continues all the way to maximum,
with virtually no fall-off.

Here's a new Audi:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/1090914...ficially-unveiled-with-4500nm-of-torque-video

4,500Nm or torque seems like quite a bit to me. Not enough for you?

The figure seems over-stated to me. 450Nm sound closer to reality.
Still, that's plenty of torque for pulling the skin off a rice pudding.
The X might be able to carry 7 midgets but you won't get anything like the
range or performance out of the thing with a load like that.

**I suggest you do some learning about electric motors. In any case, I
was simply addressing your claim:

"Then there is the fact that an electric car can't pull the skin off a
custard."

Do you now resile from that fact?
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
One needs to take a pragmatic view. Some people may be willing to adjust
their lives to address CO2 emissions, but most people will simply follow
the path of least financial resistance.

**When fuel hits 5 Bucks a Litre, you will likely see a lot of
innovative ideas.
The Government needs to ensure that that path doesn't represent an
increase in total cost without a commensurate environmental gain. As
things stand, that's very much in doubt.

**Regardless, we are facing a number of issues that threaten our present
lifestyle. These are:

* Dwindling supplies of cheap oil.
* Increasing demand for oil.
* An increasing need to deal with CO2 emissions.

None of the solutions will be without cost. Intelligent thinking can
reduce those costs.

You made the point that PV cells were not a nett benefit for the grid. I
accept that POV as valid. Given the cost reductions of PV cells, the
rise in prices of fossil fuels (both supply related and taxation
related), then alternative forms of personal transport will likely be
more common. Electric vehicles are ONE, viable form of personal
transport. Marry PV cells and electric vehicles and several problems can
be dealt with efficiently.
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
With the Volt going to cost $60k plus the cost of the panels, the
economics are highly suspect.

**Now, that is true. Do you imagine that it will always be the case?

In 1908, the average US automobile cost US$3,000.00. In 1909, Henry Ford
introduced mass production techniques to the US auto industry and lower
the price to $850.00. Further refinements and economies of scale allowed
Ford to reduce the price of the Model T to $550.00.

Right now, electric automobiles represent a miniscule proportion of
production. Witness the Telsa Roadster. It's performance approximates
that of a cheap(?) Ferrari. It is priced similarly. It is built in
similar numbers. It is reasonable to accume that, when EVs are built in
huge numbers, that costs will fall.

What do you think people will be driving when fuel hits 5 Bucks a Litre?
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
With the Volt going to cost $60k plus the cost of the panels, the
economics are highly suspect.

**I thought a little more on this comment. Buying a Volt is no more
suspect that buying a BMW X5 so mum can drop the kids to school.
 
S

Sylvia Else

Jan 1, 1970
0
seems to be a pet topic of yours.

Results 1 - 10 of about 22 for author:else electrolysis

going through those would be like putting on a Willie Nelson tape

Herc

So not yet any evidence. The fact that I've discussed electrolysis is
not the same is saying that I've asserted a particular level of efficiency.

Sylvia.
 
S

Sylvia Else

Jan 1, 1970
0
Right, but if you could afford to pay 3-5 years power bill upfront
you can make substantial savings by investing on top of your roof!

If the consequence of your doing that is only that the price of grid
power rises, but without any reduction in CO2 emissions, then all you've
achieved is to transfer some of your power costs to other people. It's a
form of economic parasitism.

Sylvia.
 
T

terryc

Jan 1, 1970
0
You can buy a Porsche quite capable of towing. You can't buy any electric
car suitable for towing or long range driving load carrying.


Restricted by their inherent problems from other uses you mean. Nope,

Electric motors don't produce torque at high revs,that's a fundamental
design limitation. If you use gearing you then increase the load and power
consumption, reducing their range.

1) Same as in a conventional IC motor vehicle.
2) Oh, you want everything, hint wiring. Shrug, it works for trains.
So you end up with a light weight chassis, incapable of towing and bloody
expensive to produce.

Shrug, in practical terms, the electric cars I see around(not the wanker
symbols) are all standard vehcile bodies retofitted.

Any modern car body is "expensive to produce" if you are producing low
numbers.The advantage of modern pressed car frames is their lightweight.
Suitability to towing is a trade off. Keep them long enough and/or do
enough towing and you bend them.
 
T

terryc

Jan 1, 1970
0
Right, but if you could afford to pay 3-5 years power bill upfront
you can make substantial savings by investing on top of your roof!

In theory. In practise it is different.
I pay a package rate for electricity,with an offpeak hotwater heavy
discount.

If I put PV on my roof(not fully suitable), I instantly move to time of
day metering on all electricity usage, but have no capacity to time
shift any consumption.


Now, if I put stuff on my roof for my use only, I need a storage system.
The only practical economical storage system is deep discharge lead acid
batteries(Not gel or agm, or Nicad, or Lipoly, etc).

It costs about $300 to regulate up to 20amps and about $800 to regulate
up to 200(?)amps going into the battery bank. That is based on a 12v
battery bank.

IME gear for higher voltages is proportionally higher in cost

Probably $10/metre for cabling/copper bars. Hint, higher currents need
anchored cables/bars.

Now, your battery bank will beed to be somewhere from 200ampHrs to
4,000AmpHrs. I use the C/20 for minimal charge/discharge rates for
longest battery life(idealy 10+ years/>3,653 cycles)

So I'll suggest $500 for 200Amphrs @12V. you can work out capital cost, etc.

At something like 200amps feed, you will probably be doing a water level
check weekly and consuming 20L of distilled water each time.
Better cost in a new set of clothes every three months because no matter
how careful you are, there is always acid holes.

You can work out your own inverters.

Now,if you want relability,then you need "generators". Plural in case
one breaks down. You also need to keep sufficent fuel to run them for
24, 48, etc up to say the occassinal week(make the neighbours really
happy there). You also need the battery chargers to convert generator
output into the battery.

Bottom line, it isn't simple and easy.
 
S

Sylvia Else

Jan 1, 1970
0
You should know! but your theory is utterly absurd.

It relies on 2 dubious premises.

Dubious Premise 1: A varying load on the Power Station can be cheaply
accomplished with a less efficient generation method.

More cheaply. I've explained how this comes about. If it weren't for
that mechanism, all our power would be generated by coal, rather than
just the base load.
Dubious Premise 2: The Govt. will willingly save a few bucks at the
expense of burning more coal to generate less power.

Appears to be entirely irrelevant.

Sylvia.
 
K

keithr

Jan 1, 1970
0
**Now, that is true. Do you imagine that it will always be the case?

In 1908, the average US automobile cost US$3,000.00. In 1909, Henry Ford
introduced mass production techniques to the US auto industry and lower
the price to $850.00. Further refinements and economies of scale allowed
Ford to reduce the price of the Model T to $550.00.

Right now, electric automobiles represent a miniscule proportion of
production. Witness the Telsa Roadster. It's performance approximates
that of a cheap(?) Ferrari. It is priced similarly. It is built in
similar numbers. It is reasonable to accume that, when EVs are built in
huge numbers, that costs will fall.

What do you think people will be driving when fuel hits 5 Bucks a Litre?

Australian fuel prices have not gone up that much over the years
compared to the rest of the world. In 1998 petrol was about 85c per
litre, I moved to the US that year and was paying 90c/US gall. Now, even
here 500Km from Sydney we are paying $1.40/litre less than double,
meanwhile the yanks are now paying $3/US gall more than 3 times the
price. That's still significantly cheaper than here, but the
differential is closing.
 
K

keithr

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yep, these cars are sold at status symbols.

Every time I see a Prius, it is being driven like fury obviously not
being driven in a green manner. If you really want to save fuel and cut
emissions, buy a VW "Blue Motion" diesel Golf
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Australian fuel prices have not gone up that much over the years
compared to the rest of the world. In 1998 petrol was about 85c per
litre, I moved to the US that year and was paying 90c/US gall. Now, even
here 500Km from Sydney we are paying $1.40/litre less than double,
meanwhile the yanks are now paying $3/US gall more than 3 times the
price. That's still significantly cheaper than here, but the
differential is closing.

**Perhaps I should ask:

When do you think petrol will hit 5 Bucks a Litre?
 
C

Clocky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Electric/hybrids don't get old before they get economically unviable to keep
on the road.
**Good. I accept your admission that you are wrong.

I'm not wrong. They can't pull the skin off a custard, and that remains a
fact.

, but as revs increase the torque tapers off to nothing making them

**Bollocks. Electric motors are quite unlike IC motors, in that
maximum torque is generated at zero RPM and continues all the way to
maximum, with virtually no fall-off.

Pigs arse.
Here's a new Audi:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/1090914...ficially-unveiled-with-4500nm-of-torque-video

4,500Nm or torque seems like quite a bit to me. Not enough for you?

The figure seems over-stated to me. 450Nm sound closer to reality.
Still, that's plenty of torque for pulling the skin off a rice
pudding.

They can't even get their claims right, but you lap them up regardless.
Show me an electric car that can tow anything... I won't hold my breath.
**I suggest you do some learning about electric motors. In any case, I
was simply addressing your claim:

I suggest you learn something about electric motors.
"Then there is the fact that an electric car can't pull the skin off a
custard."

Do you now resile from that fact?

It remains as stated. Show me an electric car that can tow anything... I'm
waiting.
 
S

Sylvia Else

Jan 1, 1970
0
It's a dumb question. The inference is that one day, solar will become
'cheaper' so everyone will switch over. But things become cheaper when
people *don't* want them as well as when there's an abundant supply. The
situation already exists in places like Europe, where green generators are
having to flog their power at knockdown prices because of the large supply
variance.

Though there's a difference. If green generators are having to sell
power at knockdown prices, it's because they cannot externalise the cost
of the variance - the market factors it into the price.

With domestic PV cells, and with anything like the current way things
are regulated, consumers ARE able to to externalise the cost of the
variance - they get to force the retailer to buy power from them at a
price determined by the government for political reasons, and with the
variance not taken into account.

Sylvia.
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Electric/hybrids don't get old before they get economically unviable to keep
on the road.

**Prove it.
I'm not wrong. They can't pull the skin off a custard, and that remains a
fact.

**Accelerating 1.2 Tonne of automobile from rest to 100kph in 3.7
seconds _IS_ serious torque. I also note that a video has been posted
showing just how well an electric motor can deliver pulling power. I
would also point you towards the reasons why all powerful locomotives
are Diesel/electric. The Diesel is used to gerate electricity, which is,
in turn, used to power electric motors to tow railway carriages.
Pigs arse.

**Nope. Fact. Note the torque figures for the Tesla:

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/specs

273 lb-ft at 0 - 5,400 RPM. That's the beauty of electric motors - a
flat torque curve. It means an electric vehicle can be used without a
gearbox.
They can't even get their claims right,

**That is not the fault of Audi. Just the idiot who wrote the article.

but you lap them up regardless.
Show me an electric car that can tow anything... I won't hold my breath.

**I note that Gordon has done just that.
I suggest you learn something about electric motors.

**What do you suggest I should learn?
It remains as stated. Show me an electric car that can tow anything... I'm
waiting.

**See Gordon's post.

Do you now resile from your nonsensical claims?
 
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