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What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?

T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Over the last 12 years it has gone up an average of 6% per year $5/litre
is roughly 260% more than the current price so work it out.

**The problem is that there will not be a linear relationship of petrol
price rises over time. There are many factors in play. Petrol may
languish at present levels for some years. Or it could go through the
roof next month. I certainly cannot predict it.
A Golf Blue Motion which is reckoned to do less than 4l/100Km will cost
you about $29K. At $5/litre even that means that you would have to do
155000Km before you're up to the basic price for the Volt, and that
isn't counting the cost of the solar panels.

**People are funny (in a weird way). When petrol cracked the $1.00/Litre
mark, the sales of large 4WDs plummetted and the sales of economical
cars boomed. Recently, thanks in part to the strength of the AUssie
Dollar, petrol prices have been depressed. 4WD sales are booming again.
It will not always be like this. Eventually, petrol prices will trend up
and people will start looking for more economical vehicles. The choice
may not be logical. IOW: A purchaser may opt for a (say) Holden Volt,
not because it will be a viable economical alternative, but because it
uses less fuel. That is human nature.

With specific reference to the Blue Motion, I should point out a few issues:

* It is available in a manual transmission only. That is not likely to
concern you or me, but people like my 84 year old mother would be bothered.
* The claimed fuel consumption figures for the Golf are not stop-start
motoring ones. In this area, electric and hybrids may offer superior
results. For long distances, at constant speeds, a straight Diesel may
be the best choice. This is not necessarily the case for Sydney traffic,
nor for those who drop the kids off to school each day. IC engines
(particularly Deisels) do not operate at optimum efficiency until the
engine is warm. Electric motors operate at maximum efficiency when cool.

BTW: I do not hold the Volt up as the ultimate solution to an
alternative powered vehicle. It is simply ONE possible solution. As I
have stated before, a small Deisel/electric vehicle makes more sense
IMO. VW's experience in this area would suggest an impressive result.
 
T

terryc

Jan 1, 1970
0
They're hybrid so you can generate the massive power to charge the
battery!

Not really, they are basicaly ICE cars with a battery smoother.

If you really want an electric car, then you need the gnerator running
at optimum/most efficent ICE speed powering the generation part into the
battery pack, from which the electric wheel motors are driven. Cust fuel
consumption by about 50% suppossedly.
 
T

terryc

Jan 1, 1970
0
**People are funny (in a weird way). When petrol cracked the $1.00/Litre
mark, the sales of large 4WDs plummetted and the sales of economical
cars boomed. Recently, thanks in part to the strength of the AUssie
Dollar, petrol prices have been depressed. 4WD sales are booming again.

You can now buy 4WD from $25k instead of $50-80K.
 
K

keithr

Jan 1, 1970
0
**The problem is that there will not be a linear relationship of petrol
price rises over time. There are many factors in play. Petrol may
languish at present levels for some years. Or it could go through the
roof next month. I certainly cannot predict it.


**People are funny (in a weird way). When petrol cracked the $1.00/Litre
mark, the sales of large 4WDs plummetted and the sales of economical
cars boomed. Recently, thanks in part to the strength of the AUssie
Dollar, petrol prices have been depressed. 4WD sales are booming again.
It will not always be like this. Eventually, petrol prices will trend up
and people will start looking for more economical vehicles. The choice
may not be logical. IOW: A purchaser may opt for a (say) Holden Volt,
not because it will be a viable economical alternative, but because it
uses less fuel. That is human nature.

Hybrids are too expensive to compete unless the price of petrol goes way
above the present level, look at Europe and Japan where petrol is double
the Australian price, Europe is full of diesels and Japan is full of
small capacity petrol engined cars, Hybrids and electric vehicles have
made little inroads despite the high cost of petrol.

At the headquarters of my employer in the US, they use hybrid vehicles
as shuttles around the campus, but I think that it is more of a gesture
than a sound economic move.
With specific reference to the Blue Motion, I should point out a few
issues:

* It is available in a manual transmission only. That is not likely to
concern you or me, but people like my 84 year old mother would be bothered.
* The claimed fuel consumption figures for the Golf are not stop-start
motoring ones. In this area, electric and hybrids may offer superior
results. For long distances, at constant speeds, a straight Diesel may
be the best choice. This is not necessarily the case for Sydney traffic,
nor for those who drop the kids off to school each day. IC engines
(particularly Deisels) do not operate at optimum efficiency until the
engine is warm. Electric motors operate at maximum efficiency when cool.

No reason (apart from cost) that cars of this class cannot be fitted
with a modern efficient auto gearbox. Modern engines warm up fast, the
ECU changes the mixture and timing to promote this, my Forrester (a not
particularly frugal car) is up to working temperature not much more than
500 metres after backing out of the drive.

I am not totally convinced by some of the technology used in this type
of vehicle. Stopping the engine when you come to a halt for instance is
fine when you stop at the traffic lights, but how does it hold up when
you are trying to turn right across heavy oncoming traffic?
BTW: I do not hold the Volt up as the ultimate solution to an
alternative powered vehicle. It is simply ONE possible solution. As I
have stated before, a small Deisel/electric vehicle makes more sense
IMO. VW's experience in this area would suggest an impressive result.

Another cost consideration with electric or hybrid vehicles is the
lifetime of the Lion batteries, they are very expensive, and, as any
laptop owner knows, their capacity diminishes with use. This is
exacerbated by high ambient temperatures such as we experience in
Australia.
 
K

keithr

Jan 1, 1970
0
You can now buy 4WD from $25k instead of $50-80K.

That depends on what you call a 4WD, the $25K ones are road cars with
and extra bit of transmission and jacked up suspension. I wouldn't take
my Forrester seriously bush bashing, that's what Troopies are for and
they don't come at that price.
 
T

terryc

Jan 1, 1970
0
That depends on what you call a 4WD, the $25K ones are road cars with
and extra bit of transmission and jacked up suspension. I wouldn't take
my Forrester seriously bush bashing, that's what Troopies are for and
they don't come at that price.

Err, superroos come at a high price then that.
Bush bashing is what you do in old utes out shooting.
and the price of troopies illustrates my point exactly.
 
K

keithr

Jan 1, 1970
0
**Prove it.


**Accelerating 1.2 Tonne of automobile from rest to 100kph in 3.7
seconds _IS_ serious torque. I also note that a video has been posted
showing just how well an electric motor can deliver pulling power. I
would also point you towards the reasons why all powerful locomotives
are Diesel/electric. The Diesel is used to gerate electricity, which is,
in turn, used to power electric motors to tow railway carriages.

In a diesel electric locomotive, the electric part is just the
transmission. It is simply used so that the diesel can run at a constant
speed for maximum efficiency. There are/have been diesel hydraulic
locomotives where the hydraulics did the same job as the generator and
motor in the diesel electric, but they needed more maintenance.
 
C

Clocky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Trevor said:
**Prove it.


**Accelerating 1.2 Tonne of automobile from rest to 100kph in 3.7
seconds _IS_ serious torque. I also note that a video has been posted
showing just how well an electric motor can deliver pulling power. I
would also point you towards the reasons why all powerful locomotives
are Diesel/electric. The Diesel is used to gerate electricity, which
is, in turn, used to power electric motors to tow railway carriages.


**Nope. Fact. Note the torque figures for the Tesla:

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/specs

273 lb-ft at 0 - 5,400 RPM. That's the beauty of electric motors - a
flat torque curve. It means an electric vehicle can be used without a
gearbox.


**That is not the fault of Audi. Just the idiot who wrote the article.

but you lap them up regardless.

**I note that Gordon has done just that.


**What do you suggest I should learn?


**See Gordon's post.

Do you now resile from your nonsensical claims?

We were talking about cars, you know, vehicles designed to carry passengers.

A couple of minutes towing a load on the back of an electric truck might
impress you, but unless it can do that at speed for a couple of hours it's
just propaganda.
 
C

Clocky

Jan 1, 1970
0
keithr said:
In a diesel electric locomotive, the electric part is just the
transmission. It is simply used so that the diesel can run at a
constant speed for maximum efficiency. There are/have been diesel
hydraulic locomotives where the hydraulics did the same job as the
generator and motor in the diesel electric, but they needed more
maintenance.

Trevor buys into hype a little too readily.
 
S

Sylvia Else

Jan 1, 1970
0
Keep researching you mortgage payer you!

Monopoly level of wealth has a very high barrier to entry.

Business capital / expenditure / competitive edge is based on a all or
nothing system of increasing capital on credit.

I ate HOTDOGS for 2 WEEKS end of 2010, NO MARGARINE

but I secured CamAffiliate.com for $1000 while doing so.

It's major competitor AWEmpire.com another CAMGIRLS AFFILIATE PROGRAM

is in the top 1000 websites ALEXA.com Rank.

i.e about $1,000,000 per day profit.

Herc
That's all very well, but you've been making these sorts of claims
for... well, it seels like years.

No doubt you can always find a rationalisation to explain why the huge
wealth hasn't reached your bank account quite yet, but doesn't it seem
odd to you that you have to keep finding rationalisations?

Sylvia.
 
S

Sylvia Else

Jan 1, 1970
0
Ahh no. See the movie MIDDLEMEN about the Adult Business.


Get in. Get rich. Get out!

These guys spent $20M with Paramount Studios, movie flopped. VISA
cancelled 5,000 webmaster credit cards overnight, my pay skipped for 2
weeks (hence the hotdogs just after paying $1000 for CamAffiliate...)
haha

$5000 a week fully automatic is not bad for a $30 ad budget.

It wouldn't be, if you were actually getting it. But I predict that in a
couple of months, when I enquire after the $40,000 you should have
earned, there will be yet another reason offered for its nonexistence. I
expect you don't believe that. I'll post citing this posting when the
time comes. When that happens, perhaps you'll finally start to wonder
how I could have predicted this so accurately.

Perhaps. But you probably won't.

Sylvia.
 
C

Clocky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Graham said:
Ahh no. See the movie MIDDLEMEN about the Adult Business.


Get in. Get rich. Get out!

These guys spent $20M with Paramount Studios, movie flopped. VISA
cancelled 5,000 webmaster credit cards overnight, my pay skipped for 2
weeks (hence the hotdogs just after paying $1000 for CamAffiliate...)
haha

$5000 a week fully automatic is not bad for a $30 ad budget. I can
scale it up more when I'm not at risk of tipping off the 'too much
sudden income' anti-fraud detection with my backend provider.

I spent 2 years getting a 300x250 banner that people clicked!

Most banners get 1 click for 2000 page views.

CAMGIRLS BANNERS get 1 in 20 clicks! 5% CTR!

That's using an animated GIF! 80s Video Compression! I've got one of
the top Adult Graphics Compayies working of the Flash Banners this
week! Not for ME TO ADVERTISE... I have to "sell" these banners to
other Adult Webmasters.. at CamAffiliate.

I've spent about $6000 on CamAffiliate.com the last 2 months... it's
hard to organise 5 different businesses to all work together.. for the
peanuts I pay most of them anyway! haha

Herc

You're getting scammed. Any money you are paying is money lost to a scam,
you're not employing anyone, they are milking you.

What a numpty you are.
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
We were talking about cars, you know, vehicles designed to carry passengers.

**Like the Tesla Roadster? You have still not explained how a vehicle
with no torgue (like the Tesla) is able to accelerate a 1.2 Tonne car to
100kph in 3.7 seconds.
A couple of minutes towing a load on the back of an electric truck might
impress you, but unless it can do that at speed for a couple of hours it's
just propaganda.

**It shows that an electric automobile can possess excellent towing ability.
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hybrids are too expensive to compete unless the price of petrol goes way
above the present level, look at Europe and Japan where petrol is double
the Australian price, Europe is full of diesels and Japan is full of
small capacity petrol engined cars, Hybrids and electric vehicles have
made little inroads despite the high cost of petrol.

**Certainly. Hybrids and EVs are expensive, when compared to IC engined
cars. It may not always be the case. As production increases, then costs
may fall. Hence my example of the Model T Ford. Whilst Hybrids will
always be more expensive that IC only cars, there will ultimately be a
point reached where oil is so expensive, that hybrids may make sense.
Oil is a finite resource. It is also, far and away, the best, presently
available, energy storage system for automobiles.
At the headquarters of my employer in the US, they use hybrid vehicles
as shuttles around the campus, but I think that it is more of a gesture
than a sound economic move.
**Certainly.


No reason (apart from cost) that cars of this class cannot be fitted
with a modern efficient auto gearbox. Modern engines warm up fast, the
ECU changes the mixture and timing to promote this, my Forrester (a not
particularly frugal car) is up to working temperature not much more than
500 metres after backing out of the drive.

**I don't know the Forrester, but I've never seen an engine reach
operating temperature that quickly (in cool weather). I feel compelled
to doubt your claim. I would expect several km would be about right. The
Blue Motion engine would likely warm up faste, due to it's small block
mass.

I am not totally convinced by some of the technology used in this type
of vehicle. Stopping the engine when you come to a halt for instance is
fine when you stop at the traffic lights, but how does it hold up when
you are trying to turn right across heavy oncoming traffic?

**Good point. Perhaps the indicator cancels the engine management in
this area? Those whacky Germans are pretty good at ensuring stupid
mistakes are not made when releasing new techology. Mostly.
Another cost consideration with electric or hybrid vehicles is the
lifetime of the Lion batteries, they are very expensive, and, as any
laptop owner knows, their capacity diminishes with use. This is
exacerbated by high ambient temperatures such as we experience in
Australia.

**Indeed. Nonetheless, given the rising cost of oil, research is likely
to continue. Hybrids, in their present form, may not represent the
answer to the problems. Standard IC engines are unlikely to represent
the future either.
 
J

Jasen Betts

Jan 1, 1970
0
**I don't know the Forrester, but I've never seen an engine reach
operating temperature that quickly (in cool weather). I feel compelled
to doubt your claim. I would expect several km would be about right. The
Blue Motion engine would likely warm up faste, due to it's small block
mass.

it's pretty amazing what can be done, an engine can be convinced to
produce significantly more heat (and less mechanical energy) merely by
delaying the spark by 15 degrees and opening the throttle a bit.

I discovered this by accident about 9 years ago.
 
C

Clocky

Jan 1, 1970
0
Graham said:
It's not that bad, just setting up a weekender.

Next week I pick up my 10 Amorphous Solar Panels and 1500W inverter
and can pressure clean the gutters, then connect the tank to roof and
then go anywhere!

I stay at the coast in $200/nite penthouses half the time. Had a King
Sized Spa this week!

but I prefer having 5 miles to the nearest neighbour so I can work on
my perpetual motion and

AA Battery Powered Fridge!

http://camaffiliate.com/DRY-AIR-INTAKE.jpg
http://camaffiliate.com/INTERNAL-EVAPORATION-UNIT.jpg

What is it keeping cold exactly? Is it even cold? Hard to tell anything from
those pics.
Just using a Shielded USB Cable and stuck the modem on the window!

http://camaffiliate.com/SHED-CORNER.jpg
http://camaffiliate.com/Gray-July2012.jpg

The OBESE GUY!
Are you using an eeePC?
 
G

Gordon Levi

Jan 1, 1970
0
kreed said:
Until you can get a battery supply that can be "refilled" as fast as current fuel, (including at the roadside, if the battery runs out),

"Better Place" has solved the former
<http://www.betterplace.com/the-solution-switch-stations> and, once
battery swap stations are as common as petrol stations, there is no
reason why roadside assist vans cannot carry a battery, or charge
yours, so that you could get to the nearest one.
can go a similar distance with a similar vehicle weight and carrying capacity as current fuels,

That is not a universal requirement. The "Better Place" target market
is the urban dweller that needs a car to get to work but the electric
car could equally well appeal to those that use a second car for local
transport.
last as long as current engine technologies before needing battery replacements,

We are there. How about 200,000 miles
and cost similar amount,

Electric cars are simpler than carbon fueled cars and there is every
reason to suppose they will cost less once there is a mass market.
as well as lower or similar running costs,

The cost of electricity to power an engine is much cheaper than the
cost of petrol although that is partly because of fuel taxes. Have you
wondered why you can't plug a hybrid car into the mains without
voiding your warrantee?
you are well and truly in dream world.

That's a nice place to be!
 
G

Gordon Levi

Jan 1, 1970
0
I am not totally convinced by some of the technology used in this type
of vehicle. Stopping the engine when you come to a halt for instance is
fine when you stop at the traffic lights, but how does it hold up when
you are trying to turn right across heavy oncoming traffic?


It's fine. I drove a BMW 1 Series recently and it restarts with no
noticeable delay. It was very disconcerting at first because, in
addition to the worry about restarting it, when the engine stops you
think you have stalled it.
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Jan 1, 1970
0
it's pretty amazing what can be done, an engine can be convinced to
produce significantly more heat (and less mechanical energy) merely by
delaying the spark by 15 degrees and opening the throttle a bit.

I discovered this by accident about 9 years ago.

**No doubt. I doubt that the many kg of block mass (and coolant) can be
heated up so rapidly though.
 
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